[BL.Arinna_1982]

Oh, so you've watched the other version for The Borgias too?

[PhoenixRising]

I think she has, Arinna.

[Mignonette]

Yes, Arinna, I've seen Borgia. There are some things I liked, but mostly it didn't work for me. The characters weren't like I'd always imagined, so I couldn't relate to them.

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Hi, Lila! OMG, thanks for that video! That's Mark and Isolda from Borgia. Is that Alfonso in that scene? Oh yeah, Lu and Alf did have a child together that died at the age of 12. The Borgias didn't include that child. But Alfonso in real life did suspect that the child was Cesare's and not his? Yeah, I know that many people suspected the same of baby Giovanni, but that baby was never recognized as Lucrezia's by Pope Alexander. Thanks for agreeing with me. Yeah, that would've made a better ending. Yep, it could've ended with Cesare telling Lucrezia, "you will be clean and bloodless again... and mine." Then, after kissing her neck, he would lift her up from the bed where Alfonso was lying and carry her out of the room, and the episode would end with Cesare carrying her down the hallway towards his bedroom, and then go to black and end credits. I agree about the raw passion as well. Yep, she didn't even seem to notice Alfonso lying there after Cesare began cleaning off her face and kissing her.

You're welcome, Alex! Yes, that's Alfonso with the crossbow - a reference to his (probable) attempt IRL to kill Cesar. I love how Cesar taunts him about little Rodrigo's parentage, saying "his (d'Este), yours...OURS (Cesar & Lucrezia)

Alfonso was exiled in Naples away from Lu when she was pregnant with Rodrigo. He accused Ces & Rodrigo of trying to keep him away from her. After the baby was born & Ces was back from France, Alfonso was allowed to return to Rome. The rumours persisted, helped in part by Ces' devotion to Lu & the 2 little boys. IDK if Alf directly accused Ces, but he made comments which I'm sure made their way back to him. He was the only husband of Lu's that he murdered. He was also the only husband she cared for. Ces & Alf had always had conflict. Ces was jealous over Lu's affection for Alf & Alf was jealous over her affection for Ces. The conflict got really bad after Ces returned from France & Alf knew his days were numbered.

Alex, why do you think they ended TB with that scene & not the one we would have written? They knew there'd be no fourth season, so why do it that way?

[BL.Arinna_1982]

[PhoenixRising]

You really love that gif, don't you, Arinna?

Hi, Lila! I agree with you about Borgia. It was just too brutal and the characters were unlikable for the most part.

Ahhh, I forgot about the crossbow. I wish they had worked that into The Borgias, the fact that Alfonso had ordered an attempt on Cesare's life with a crossbow. Cesare's taunts are always good.

Thanks for the info, Lila. Yes, I think I heard about that stuff regarding Alfonso when I was researching The Borgias. After Alfonso's death, Lucrezia wasn't allowed to bring their child with her to Ferrara. The child died at age 12. You're right, Alf was doomed from the start because of Lucrezia's affection for both of them.

I don't know why they ended it the way they did, Lila. I suspect that the episodes were filmed in advance back in 2012, and by the time they aired in 2013 it was assumed that The Borgias would get a 4th season as planned. But after Showtime cancelled the show in the middle of season 3, I guess there was no way to change the ending at that point. ;(

[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Thanks for the info, Lila. Yes, I think I heard about that stuff regarding Alfonso when I was researching The Borgias. After Alfonso's death, Lucrezia wasn't allowed to bring their child with her to Ferrara. The child died at age 12. You're right, Alf was doomed from the start because of Lucrezia's affection for both of them. I don't know why they ended it the way they did, Lila. I suspect that the episodes were filmed in advance back in 2012, and by the time they aired in 2013 it was assumed that The Borgias would get a 4th season as planned. But after Showtime cancelled the show in the middle of season 3, I guess there was no way to change the ending at that point. ;(

Hi Alex! It was so horrible that mothers weren't allowed to take their children to live with a new husband. Lucrezia never saw little Rodrigo again after she married d'Este, so he died at age 12 having no real memories of his mother

Cesar was so devoted to Lu that he took little Rodrigo under his care & protection along with little Giovanni. He offered to arrange for Rodrigo to live outside of Italy, instead of with Alfonso's family in Naples, but Lucrezia didn't want him so far away. He also protected him by convincing Louis to employ both little boys as ambassadors of the crown. One example of why it's believed Louis suspected the incest rumours were true, was that he put italics around the word "nephews" of Cesar Borgia when he signed the order for payment to the boys.

Cesar wanted Rodrigo to be able to see his mother, but it wasn't allowed, so he spent as much time with him as possible, even when his campaigns made it difficult. His devotion to her child was more proof of his deep love for her. A man doesn't care for another man's child the way Cesar did unless he loves that child's mother, especially when you remember that he never made any effort to see his own daughter by Charlotte.

So there was no time to change the script when the show was canceled? That makes sense. We're lucky it ended as well as it did for C&L in that case. Just as François said, the best possible outcome for them given how the show ended.

[BL.Arinna_1982]

This moment was one of the best moments in the show.

[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by BL.Arinna_1982 (View Post) This moment was one of the best moments in the show.

Arinna, do you mean the scene from the gif you posted of their nose bump? Or a different one? I love when she told him she didn't feel safe unless he was nearby! He always wanted to be her hero, & was so happy when she told him that, wasn't he?

[PhoenixRising]

Hi, Lila! Yeah, mothers and women in general weren't treated very well back then. It's a shame that Lucrezia never saw her son again. I wish that Cesare was able to do something more to help with Rodrigo. Even if Lucrezia didn't want him far away from her, he might've still lived instead of dying at 12 years old. Oh wow, I didn't know that Cesare had asked King Louis to make Rodrigo an ambassador. Thanks for letting us know! Yeah, Cesare's devotion to Lucrezia's sons does make you wonder.

Yeah, Cesare never did visit his daughter by Charlotte, did he? I do feel kind of sad for her that she never got to know her father. But you're right about Cesare's unusual devotion to Lucrezia's children. They even show that on the show with how protective he is of Giovanni.

Originally Posted by Mignonette (View Post) So there was no time to change the script when the show was canceled? That makes sense. We're lucky it ended as well as it did for C&L in that case. Just as François said, the best possible outcome for them given how the show ended.

Apparently not. The episodes for cable shows are all shot in advance, months before the show actually airs, so they filmed all of season 3 with the idea that there would be a season 4. Then Showtime cancelled the show because NJ decided he didn't want to do a fourth season and instead wanted to do a finale movie that Showtime felt was "too expensive," so they never had a chance to change the final episode to give it a more resolute ending. But you're right, I guess we should consider ourselves lucky. After all, look how Borgia ended.

[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Hi, Lila! Yeah, mothers and women in general weren't treated very well back then. It's a shame that Lucrezia never saw her son again. I wish that Cesare was able to do something more to help with Rodrigo. Even if Lucrezia didn't want him far away from her, he might've still lived instead of dying at 12 years old. Oh wow, I didn't know that Cesare had asked King Louis to make Rodrigo an ambassador. Thanks for letting us know! Yeah, Cesare's devotion to Lucrezia's sons does make you wonder. Yeah, Cesare never did visit his daughter by Charlotte, did he? I do feel kind of sad for her that she never got to know her father. But you're right about Cesare's unusual devotion to Lucrezia's children. They even show that on the show with how protective he is of Giovanni. Apparently not. The episodes for cable shows are all shot in advance, months before the show actually airs, so they filmed all of season 3 with the idea that there would be a season 4. Then Showtime cancelled the show because NJ decided he didn't want to do a fourth season and instead wanted to do a finale movie that Showtime felt was "too expensive," so they never had a chance to change the final episode to give it a more resolute ending. But you're right, I guess we should consider ourselves lucky. After all, look how Borgia ended.

Hi Alex! Lucrezia was also devoted to Cesar's children. She cared for Giovanni, Giralamo, & Camille, his 3 illegitimate children, when he went to prison. But like Cesar, she never made an effort to see his child by Charlotte, who was 14 years old when Lucrezia died. The child she doted on was Giovanni, whom she brought to live with her in Ferrara. Her complete devotion to him fueled speculation that he was her child, and of course, the incest rumours.

[BL.Arinna_1982]

Originally Posted by Mignonette (View Post) Arinna, do you mean the scene from the gif you posted of their nose bump? Or a different one? I love when she told him she didn't feel safe unless he was nearby! He always wanted to be her hero, & was so happy when she told him that, wasn't he?

That and the whole scene. I think the things between them went serious from that moment on.

[PhoenixRising]

Originally Posted by Mignonette (View Post) Hi Alex! Lucrezia was also devoted to Cesar's children. She cared for Giovanni, Giralamo, & Camille, his 3 illegitimate children, when he went to prison. But like Cesar, she never made an effort to see his child by Charlotte, who was 14 years old when Lucrezia died. The child she doted on was Giovanni, whom she brought to live with her in Ferrara. Her complete devotion to him fueled speculation that he was her child, and of course, the incest rumours.

Hi, Lila! Oh, she was? You mean Cesare's illegitimate children. I don't think she would've tried to meet his daughter with Charlotte, right? I don't think Charlotte would've minded, but it might've been inappropriate. How long did Giovanni live? I've lost track of how many kids Lucrezia had. Yep, she did take Giovanni with her, but she sadly couldn't take Rodrigo.

See, that's another reason why I couldn't stand the Apocalypse storyline. Why would Lucrezia try to murder her own father, whom she named her son after?

[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by BL.Arinna_1982 (View Post) That and the whole scene. I think the things between them went serious from that moment on.

Do you think that was the pivotal scene for them, going from playing games to getting serious about what they wanted from each other? Ces was looking at her lips the entire scene. And when she paused, touching his chest, before telling him to come back soon, I thought come on! kiss her!! Then I remembered his tailor was standing there - oops!

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Hi, Lila! Oh, she was? You mean Cesare's illegitimate children. I don't think she would've tried to meet his daughter with Charlotte, right? I don't think Charlotte would've minded, but it might've been inappropriate. How long did Giovanni live? I've lost track of how many kids Lucrezia had. Yep, she did take Giovanni with her, but she sadly couldn't take Rodrigo. See, that's another reason why I couldn't stand the Apocalypse storyline. Why would Lucrezia try to murder her own father, whom she named her son after?

Hi Alex! Yes, his illegitimate children. He had at least 11, probably many more, cause he was a ***** magnet

Yeah, Lucrezia may not have wanted to know anything about his daughter by Charlotte, especially if the incest between her & Cesar was true. She had plenty of time to meet the girl - 14 years - but she never did.

Giovanni died in his fifties. Lucrezia had 9 children (not counting Giovanni, if he was her son), but only 6 survived. Her third husband kept her pregnant, cause he was insecure about his virility. If he suspected Cesar of incest & possibly fathering children with Lucrezia, his need to keep her knocked up makes sense from his point of view. It caused her serious health problems, cause women aren't breeding stock

I'll never understand what NJ was thinking when he wrote TBA. It seemed like his goal was to completely destroy the relationships between Ces, Lu, & Rodrigo, but why? Was he that angry at the sibs for the incest? It was his own damned writing that created it! Thank god we never had to see that horrible script come to life! François said he would've liked to have played Cesar until his demise, but I wouldn't have watched it. I loved Ces too much to see him die! It would've given me PTSD for life!! Knowing how he died IRL is bad enough

[BL.Arinna_1982]

[PhoenixRising]

Ohhh, I love that armory scene, Arinna!

Hi, Lila! OMG, Cesare had 11 illegitimate children? And Lucrezia took care of all of them?

Well, I don't think that Lucrezia would've had any problem with Cesare's daughter by Charlotte, she probably just figured that his daughter was already well taken care of in France and that Charlotte was taking care of everything, so it wasn't necessary. There was never any reason for Charlotte or Lucrezia to have any issues with each other since they'd never even cross paths.

Oh, so he died in his fifties? I guess that's a long time back then, huh?
Yeah, I suspected that Alfonso d'Este was insecure because Lucrezia was supposedly cheating on him all the time. Keeping her pregnant all the time seems a bit extreme, though. Yeah, that probably did result in her health problems. Human women aren't like dogs and cats, they can't just keep popping out kids like that.

Originally Posted by Mignonette (View Post) I'll never understand what NJ was thinking when he wrote TBA. It seemed like his goal was to completely destroy the relationships between Ces, Lu, & Rodrigo, but why? Was he that angry at the sibs for the incest? It was his own damned writing that created it! Thank god we never had to see that horrible script come to life! François said he would've liked to have played Cesar until his demise, but I wouldn't have watched it. I loved Ces too much to see him die! It would've given me PTSD for life!! Knowing how he died IRL is bad enough

I think NJ just didn't give a by that point, Lila. I think he felt compromised in his artistic vision by Showtime and the fans, along with Francois and Holly's input, and I think he didn't even really understand the story he was telling. I mean, how much did he embellish or outright manufacture for the show that never even happened in the history? So why would he have a problem with the incest even if it didn't really happen, and especially since there was a precedent for it since the rumors about Cesare and Lucrezia did exist regardless of whether they were true or not.

Yeah, I'm glad that script never got made, although I wish that someone else could've taken over the show and done a fourth season that would've ended similar to the BBC version. Sure, it would've been difficult to see Cesare die, but dying on a battlefield, lying in the grass, and having his memories of him and Lucrezia flashing through his mind while Lucrezia read his final letter to her and her children would've been a poignant, if sad, ending.