kiss the wind

I wasn't particularly trying to say that his actions regarding Octavia put anyone else in danger, but just that he did in fact value Octavia above everyone else and probably would have made the same decisions if necessary. I guess if I had to pick an example, it would be the deliquents who died when searching for O in 1x06, but that was more the grounders than anything else, and Bellamy also didn't force them to go. ETA: April's example is probably the best one.

I just can't blame Clarke for wanting to protect Madi to the best of her ability especially if she thought Wonkru wouldn't follow her. She explicitly told Bellamy when she was disapproving of the plan that she didn't know who still believed in the flame, but "They believe in Bloodreina more." It's reasonable to me that she'd believe that, is all.

I can see now that the flame has taken that Madi could be a good commander if she decides to keep the flame, though.

Alexa

To me its a bit different with Bellamy in 411 because praimfaya was coming regardless, so they were all going die anyway? And they knew a long time before they had to decide on who was allowed in the bunker. IMO it was only fair that Octavia decided then what happened because she won the conclave and everyone on the grand agreed. Again Clarke was selfish there too, trying only to save the sky people. I didnt fault for her for that because i do think they were the most qualified to run the underground, but I just see it differently.

There were other people that Clarke cared about that she just abandoned. Bellamy sure, but also Raven and Murphy. And the big one for me is Abby.

I also just believe her taking Madi now is just putting her at more risk. Its just as sketchy trying to run than it would be to to put the flame in her.

I believe Madi taking the flame would have been the best outcome for literally everyone.

Octavia can just... shut up. She's on my last nerve.

kiss the wind

I agree on that. She's ruined everything.

Wish that Bellamy, Indra, Clarke, Madi, Monty, and Harper somehow just decided to stage an escape while Octavia was in her coma. Then even if Octavia/Wonkru went to Eden, they could somehow stage a meetup with Kane/Spacekru/Abby/Diyoza and let McCreary fight Wonkru. It's unrealistic, I know, but a girl can dream.

I do understand that. I think that Clarke is not thinking ahead, but she probably figured that once she got to Eden and reunited with them, they'd stage some type of escape (which, well, they all did without her anyway).

Fuzzy Dunlop

Yeah, I think it's super weird that Clarke doesn't also seem to care about Abby dying in the valley. That's been one of the most important relationships from like the first scene of the show. It's her mother. Think back to all the times Clarke broke down in emotion over Abby. But this season they had like two scenes together in one episode and have apparently never thought of or mentioned each other since. Murphy cares about Clarke's own mother more than Clarke does. What gives?

April7739

I agree, Clarke’s lack of concern for Abby is . . . quizzical, so I am really glad you mentioned that, Alexa, because I hadn’t thought about it until you did.

Wait . . . I’m confused on what you’re saying here. A long time before they had to decide who was in the bunker? What do you mean?

Murphy himself says that Bellamy sentenced him and Emori to die when he opened that bunker door. People like Miller’s dad died. Essentially, when Bellamy opened that door, the fate of everyone who was in that bunker became uncertain. People like Murphy never would have stood a chance of being chosen. Even Monty wasn’t on the list.

Like I said, I totally support Bellamy there, because I empathized so hard with where he was coming from, and it was ultimately the decision that saved more people. (Of course, it created Wonkru, so hindsight is 20/20. ) But I think if Octavia hadn’t been out there and had already been in the bunker, he very likely would have left it closed. I think it’s a pretty good example of how he put Octavia above so many others there, just like Clarke put Madi above so many others in 5x09. Which leads me to believe that they are ultimately going to emerge from this with a better understanding of each other than ever before. It’s just a hell of a painful process to get to that point.

Fuzzy Dunlop

She means they had known for several months already that not everyone was going to survive Praimfaya and that they would have to choose.

I thought that Raven, Kane, and Octavia all definitely would have died if Bellamy didn't open the door though? Not to mention Monty and Harper who were still out there. Only Murphy and Emori were inside the bunker and thought they would get cut from the team if skaikru had to let some people go.

April7739

Yeah, typo. I started talking about something else there. I think I’ve been staring at a screen too long today. Fixed it now, I think.

BrooklynFan

Wow, for everyone who’s been saying the plot has been moving slowly this season, this episode really changed things up! What struck me the most (aside from the classic 100 situation where everybody is making really impulsive, terrible decisions that lead to maximum possible conflict) is that up til now this had to have been the season with the lowest body count, the least torture or gruesome deaths, and the most moral qualms about violence. Just about every time anyone has been killed this season there’s been someone right there to object to it, from the first episode when Madi objected to Clarke going full grounder on the Eligius people to 5x08 when there was only one death—Cooper’s—and absolutely everyone including Bellamy and Clarke clearly felt terrible about it.

Where death has sometimes been treated casually in the past, this season seemed to be all about making us feel its weight and question the morality of violence. And then last night ... all hell broke loose. People start dying left and right with Indra offing that guard, Clarke shooting poor Jerome, Murphy lightheartedly instigating massive casualties in the fight among the Eligius people. “How we get to peace” didn’t quite get us there, I guess! (And I know, I know, it would be boring if everyone just decided to get along and the rest of the show was about figuring out how to build a productive farming community in that valley).

Aside from that, I was most struck by Madi taking the flame. I wasn’t sure they’d go there—I thought Clarke might arrive in time to stop it—and I wasn’t sure I wanted them to. I thought I was ready for their society to be done with the whole Commander thing, but then Madi started drawing on Commander memories in her new, calmly commanding voice, and it was super cool.

Question: what do we think Niylah is up to? I had thought she was all about Blodreina now, and that was why she didn’t want Madi to take the flame, but her comment to Clarke that Madi wouldn’t be safe and that unfortunately Octavia’s “true believers have all the guns” made me think maybe she isn’t one of the true believers after all?

Lastly, Diyoza is a total badass. That is all.

destroyer of worlds

And always referring to “fan pandering” and “wedging it in for shippers” is fine/respectful? Apparently by your definition, since you’ve done it multiple times. As you can see, plenty of people here don’t have clear ships and I don’t have issue with their comments since they communicate their opinions respectfully, don’t mock shippers or throw sarcasm at people because of their comments. It’s okay not to ship (I do it for other shows), but what I don’t appreciate is thinking your view is more objective or matters more than others who do. Anyway, this is clearly a lost argument since this isn’t the first time it’s been brought up.

I’m of two kinds of Madi would want to keep the Flame in her now, I didn’t necessarily get the impression that she completely opposes the idea (and I did feel like she was curious about it when Gaia showed it to her) ... since she was thrown into making a decision because of what transpired in this episode, it’ll be interesting if she’ll fight to keep it in her now. Also, she might be influenced by what Clarke told her about the Flame, that she would be in danger because of it and I think that is also why she was initially apprehensive over it. But now that it’s been done, she might feel differently about it. Clarke is concerned about her safety first and foremost so I definitely see her not being happy with that ... but will probably reconsider if it’s really something that Madi ultimately wants.

It is quite bizarre about the Griffins relationship this season. When they reunited, it wasn’t even very emotional?? I mean, Abby legit thought that she was dead ... for years. And then now, you hardly see them referencing each other or thinking about the other person ... and to-date, Abby doesn’t even know about Madi. How weird is that? Your daughter adopted a child essentially and she still doesn’t know about it. Abby’s story is just so separate from everyone other than Diyoza at the moment and it’s strange.

I like that, Amelia. I honestly think that Bellamy/Clarke/Madi/Indra should have ran and try to find a way to Shadow Valley, once the plan to install Indra as Wonkru leader didn’t pan out. But then again, Indra might not want to leave Octavia behind and they might have an issue getting Clarke out of there?

April7739

I think Niylah is all about Octavia.

Oh, his name was Jerome? Bye, Jerome.

Well, I thought beaking Clarke out would have been hard, but apparently Niylah did it pretty easily. But that was in the midst of the ascension. Even if they had all run, though, what would they have done once they got to Shallow Valley? Warned them that worm eggs were coming? Watch them take out Wonkru with their rocket launcher thing? Besides, Spacekru had already incited the civil war at that point. Someone really should have told them a peace deal had been struck. *cough, Kane, cough*

Taryn74

I would have LOVED for that scene to also include an older Grounder who Madi spoke to about the Commander before Lexa (do we even know anything about who that was? It's always LEXA LEXA LEXA! but she would have only been Commander for what, five or six years, right?) in much the same way. Showing that Madi really took on the consciousness of all the former Commanders when she took the Flame.

Fuzzy Dunlop

Yes, it is fine and respectful. Who specifically did I "mock" in this conversation? That's commentary on how the writers are managing things, not an insult to shippers. But it is completely ridiculous for you to get upset about me saying that shipping comes with a bias. Of course it does. That's what it is. Having a bias isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially since this is just a tv show and who cares. Since when has being a completely objective robot been a desirable (or reasonable) trait when consuming art? I think this show in particular is asking us to examine our biases, so I don't think it's a problem for me to be honest about how the fandom responds to it. I don't intend it to be rude or insulting. But apparently you have a HUGE problem with it because you freak out at me every week. You're not even arguing with me about what I said this week, you're clearly still upset about like two weeks ago. Just let me have my opinions. They're not about you.

April7739

Yeah, if it’s in there, might as well get some insight into other commanders. Like Becca. Wonder if Becca would have any Eligius insight.

Oh, how weird of her to have memories of males in her head, too? The whole thing is just WEIRD and CREEPY on so many levels. I’d love for it to be gone at the end of the season, but it probably won’t be.

destroyer of worlds

This episode really ramped it up after stagnating a bit in recent episodes, I do think that part of it is because of the dumb breaks in between but it’s definitely moving at a better pace now.

I really liked the Madi scene too, she seemed so calm and in control during that scene. And I feel like we will see a lot more of her speaking in Grounder language after this.

Yeah, I’m a bit confused about Niylah too. We barely see her and then when she appears, her characterisation is all over the place.

Adina tweeted about Diyoza being the definition of a working mom. I agree so very much.

kiss the wind

Becca must definitely have some insight about Eligus’s initial deployment and missions.