Fuzzy Dunlop

I'm not saying that Octavia is right and I totally understand being pissed off at her right now, but I don't think the only purpose of the fighting pits was to control the population. It's the whole "enemy of Wonkru" thing as well. Two birds with one stone. I think Octavia's main motivation this season isn't to maintain power for herself, but to keep her people unified and at peace with each other. Like you saw how quickly they started bickering and fighting about who's skaikru and who's in what clan as soon as Octavia was in a coma. This goes back to Jaha's final lesson to her about needing to create an enemy for her people to fight against together. She's gotten them through six years of apparent hell this way and I think she's just really scared of what will happen to everyone if their unity falls apart.

TaraJoyful

Yeah, that's the way I saw it too. And your callback to Jaha's final lesson explained it pretty perfectly.

Octavia is a warrior more than anything else, has been since season 2. She's not necessarily a natural leader like some of the other characters, so this is the way she has to lead to maintain control.

"Who we are and who we need to be to survive are two very different things." Octavia has just been focused on Wonkru surviving. So now that her morality is being questioned, I don't think she knows quite how to deal with it.

Damocles

yeah I feel like maybe the camera would have zoomed in on them to remind us about them, but interesting note that you guys made. Hmm. When was there time to remove the eggs from the rover?

The entire Abby/Clarke thing is just bizarre to me, it's like the writers forgot they are...a thing. Maybe in the final few episodes we will see why Abby is supposedly one of Clarke's biggest supporters

Exactly, so hopefully this comes into play later! Very intriguing.


***

At this point, I hope whatever we see that happened during the dark year changes some people's views on Octavia, cause I'm a little tired of the Octavia hate I'm seeing (I see alot on Reddit). I can totally understand how polarizing she is being, but I STILL don't think she's done anything worse than other beloved characters. Come at me!

Taryn74

Yeah it was when Niylah was trying to sneak Clarke in to get to Madi, the "true believers" were the ones already gathering together for the Ascension ceremony, and the only weapon they had was the one gun Clarke had pulled off the guard.

I may or may not have bought the season on amazon so I could go back and rewatch scenes easily.

ETA to comment on these two:

Oh G-d, YES to all of this!

TaraJoyful

Oh gosh, I barely go onto Reddit anymore. The Octavia and Clarke hate on there is out of control!

I genuinely want to ask some of the users there if they even actually like anything about the show, or if they just like dragging the characters through the mud. The negativity is exhausting...

Fuzzy Dunlop

I guess Octavia was thinking that this would be part of the ruse about Madi running away from them. Like Madi stole the rover and took off. But then Octavia was going to have them killed by that guard. So would she have pretended that the rover was stolen and they'd have to deliver the eggs some other way? I don't know. It's all getting very confusing.

It kinda seems like it might have made the Clarke/Madi relationship more interesting if they had been contrasting it with Clarke/Abby this whole time. I have to believe it's coming in the final 4 episodes, but there really isn't much time left. But then this show tends to quickly gloss over major emotional beats in like one scene and then act like it was fully addressed. Even if there's one single scene at the end where Abby hugs Clarke and tells her she did her best, I feel like Eliza or the writers might say that means Abby was Clarke's biggest supporter. You know how it is.

Lol, quoted for truth. There's probably like two or three new threads every day on there about Octavia. It's the same argument over and over.

kiss the wind

In regards to the Bellamy hate over the Madi thing: Some brought up a good point on Twitter (well, in the way I understood it). They essentially said that Bellamy saw Clarke make tons of "bad" choices in seasons 1-4 with her head, lots of which were at the expense of him/Octavia. Yet even though he hated those choices, he still chose to target Madi anyway? Like, yeah, he may have thought it would stop the war, but he still should have stopped himself.

I like the idea that the pits were about survival, but I'm sure there's some element of "keep Octavia in power" there as well. It's not just about survival anymore because, well, the miners got them out.

kiss the wind

In regards to the Bellamy hate over the Madi thing: Some brought up a good point on Twitter (well, in the way I understood it). They essentially said that Bellamy saw Clarke make tons of "bad" choices in seasons 1-4 with her head, lots of which were at the expense of him/Octavia. Yet even though he hated those choices, he still chose to target Madi anyway? Like, yeah, he may have thought it would stop the war, but he still should have stopped himself.

I like the idea that the pits were about survival, but I'm sure there's some element of "keep Octavia in power" there as well. It's not just about survival anymore because, well, the miners got them out.

Fuzzy Dunlop

I don't think Wonkru's troubles are over just because the bunker is open now. They still need to eat and have a place to live that's sustainable. Octavia is trying to keep them from falling apart internally before they can reach the promised land, so to speak. Like this episode just illustrated really clearly, a population at war with itself is really vulnerable. Octavia is the central lynch pin that holds them together, so her work isn't done yet. I think they're gonna drive that point home really hard during the Dark Year episode.

BlueDog9

I think the pit became more about her power and less about survival by the time The Dark Year was done.

Fuzzy Dunlop

I just don't think that Octavia has ever been shown to be motivated by personal power in any of the previous 4 seasons. If anything, she was always sort of rejecting power structures. Even at the beginning of the season in 5x02 they made a big point of showing how uneasy she was with being the leader instead of a warrior and Jaha had to teach her how to unite people. So what reason do we have to believe that her fundamental personality changed completely to make her crazy about power now? Like she just woke up one day and decided that she wanted to be worshipped like a god? To me it makes more sense to conclude that she's doing what she thinks needs to be done to save Wonkru. I can't even imagine what kind of pressure she must feel.

Taryn74

Totally agree. I see Octavia doing the same exact thing Clarke, and Kane, and Bellamy, and everybody else having always done - whatever it takes for her people (as a whole) to survive. The biggest difference is that she is leading a group of ~1,000, more than any of the others have ever been responsible for except maybe Kane and Jaha, and most of whom have always lived according to a really rough, survival-of-the-fittest warrior's code. Wonkru would never have responded to some gentle, pacifist leader the way they did to Octavia. She became what she had to become to lead them.

We also need to keep in mind that without access to Shadow Valley, Wonkru is literally on the brink of starvation. Kara mentioned it, but (more importantly IMO) Monty verified in Acceptable Losses that without his algae, the hydrofarm was only going to last about three more weeks, tops. THREE. WEEKS. Three weeks until they could very well face extinction by starvation. They're not even close to being able to move beyond survival mode yet.

BrooklynFan

The funny thing is I thought it was a cool idea, and a good development at first, but the whole Clarke/Madi storyline just seems to have stagnated along with Clarke's personality. I"m hopeful that the new twist of Madi taking the Flame shakes things up for both of them.

Alexa

Totally agree with you ^ I’m excit s about the Madi twist.

It wasn’t sarcasm at all Sarah. What part of that post was sarcastic? I legit asked why you didn’t think I had a right to be upset with Octavia. I think it’s very understandable to be upset with her. I don’t think it’s black and white. I think everyone is supposed to be very angry with her. She’s 100% being painted as the main villain this season imo. Like, I’m siding more with diyoza than her.

I totally agree about he dialogue this season. It’s been so bad at times and Cheesey at times too. I loveeeeee Murphy but some of his lines third episode made me cringe. It also bothered me that Bellamy wasn’t better at explaining his plan to Clarke.

I agree about Octavia wanting to maintain control but they aren’t even giving her a sliver of like... humanity. It’s jmpossible to see her viewpoint imo.... the tears were a step in the right direction at least....


Maybe I should go to reddit I’d get along great with the Clarke and Octavia hate lol.

April7739

For real, Alexa, I was going to suggest that you go check out Reddit, because I glanced at it just now, and yeah, it’s not a pro-Octavia place at all, and I noticed a lot of anti-Clarke stuff today. Then there’s a Twitter, which is still probably not pro-Bellamy, but I think some people have had time to process now. Honestly, neither one of those posting environments sounds super fun to me, but have at it if you want, guys.

Tara, bless you. Because I’ve been thinking about this today, and this is exactly what I wanted to say.

We’ve known all season long that Clarke/Madi parallels Bellamy/Octavia a lot. On Bob’s board, we talked about how Bellamy’s relationship with Octavia could never be normal, because their circumstances werent’t normal. Due to the extreme situation of oppression they were in growing up, he was always going to be overly protective of her. It stemmed from a place of love but sometimes manifested itself in the form of questionable calls that put others at risk. The same can be said for Clarke now. Due to the extreme situation of isolation those she and Madi were in, she was always going to be overly protective of her. Like with Bellamy, it always stems from a place of love but sometimes manifests itself in the form of questionable decisions that put others at risk. I can literally use the exact same wording to describe these bonds. If the similarities are so strong, doesn’t it make for a more compelling viewing experience to compare and fully flesh out both of them? I believe so.

Clarke and Madi had only each other as human companions for 6 years. I feel like it’s overly simplistic to simply say that her storyline just boils down to this “Mama Bear” thing. If you had only one other source of socialization for 6 years, wouldn’t it be of the utmost importance to you?

And when it comes to Bellamy, I feel like it’s unfair to say that he should have known better than to approach Madi with this. That, to me, is like saying, “Hey, Bellamy, you need to think about how Clarke has changed and what matters to her now, but you have to sweep your own changes under the rug. Make the decision that is best for her but not your people.” Likewise, I would never say, “Clarke, forget about how you’ve changed and let Bellamy make a decision you don’t agree with, because he’s changed, too, and you should prioritize his changes over yours right now.” I just don’t think one of them needs to be right and one of them needs to be wrong here. The fact that they are both in such a grey area right now fascinates me.

Okay, and then next is Octavia. Sarah, your opinion on her really has softened since 5x05. I think it’s funny that you say you can’t explain why. You guys know my opinion, but I just want to say that I don’t think it was a shtick at the end. I think she really truly does intend to “deal with” Madi.

I do feel like Octavia’s actions are more extreme than what we’ve seen others do on this show. Gonna be honest, throwing her own brother in the pit is potentially a dealbreaker for me when it comes to this character. I’m going to make it through the Dark Year explanation and re-evaluate how I feel then. I don’t sympathize with her feeling alone or betrayed right now, because this is still a situation she created herself and still decisions she’s carried out herself. Like all the other characters, I don’t find it difficult to understand where she’s coming from; empathy . . . I’ve got that. But sympathy is different. And so far, I feel sympathy for Bellamy, Clarke, Indra, and a host of other characters. But not Octavia. I felt sympathy for the fact that she was a young girl (not a natural leader) who suddenly had the fate of humanity on her shoulders. She didn’t want or deserve that. But she ultimately accepted the role, and I want to hold her accountable for it and not just brush it off as something she has to do. Ultimately, she’s still making choices,, just like Clarke and Bellamy have made choices.

But again, I’m waiting on that Dark Year stuff and the end of the season to really flesh out my opinion on her. Fair enough, right? I came up with this analogy earlier, and I like it: If you’re playing a game, something goes wrong or happens that you don’t like, and you wipe out the whole board, then you never see how the game turns out.