[jackiehydelover]

When you're a teenager, yes, you know the difference between right from wrong, but also, when you're that young, you don't always comprehend things like boundaries. As teenagers, we have so many emotions and teenage drama/problems running though us that we don't always know how to let it all out. The way you're painting Hyde in season 1 is kind of unfair. For example, what you mentioned in Eric's Buddy, with the hand on the leg thing, when he started to move his hand, Donna smiled. Yes, it was an exacerbated, like "really?" type of smile, but it was a smile. To ME, it doesn't seem offensive or stalkerish at all. I can see one of my guy friends doing that to me now and we would both consider it funny. I don't think she was ever threatened by him. And in Ski Trip after she smacked him it was like she was trying to smack some sense into him. Once he made one last ditch effort in First Date, he stopped! He let it go.

For some reason, I don't think we're going to find common ground here, so I'm just going to end this with, to each his own

[MistyMountainHop]

Originally Posted by jackiehydelover (View Post) For some reason, I don't think we're going to find common ground here, so I'm just going to end this with, to each his own

Nope, we're not. But I will say one more thing on this, which you don't have to respond to. I'm not really debating you, just the idea you put out there. Discussion on the subject is important, and That '70s Show gave the perfect opportunity to have it.

Originally Posted by jackiehydelover (View Post) When you're a teenager, yes, you know the difference between right from wrong, but also, when you're that young, you don't always comprehend things like boundaries.

In my experience, this is blatantly untrue. Hyde is seventeen-years-old, not ten. By that time, he's old enough to comprehend that no means no. He's also old enough to understand that a repeated no is serious, though Donna shoud've only had to say it once for it to be respected.

There are too many people out there -- children, teenagers, young adults -- who aren't taught that unwanted touch isn't okay. Donna clearly does not want Hyde's touch in "Ski Trip," and Hyde is both old enough and sane enough to understand that -- but he willfully and selfishly chooses to ignore it for his own needs. The look on Donna's face after she slaps Hyde is one of betrayal.

It falls into the same territory as this: If Hyde and Donna had been dating at seventeen-years-old, and they were kissing, and she wanted to stop at any point -- and he tried to keep going? That's not consensual. He's old enough to understand what "no" means, and just because they're dating doesn't give him the right to go farther than what she's comfortable with.

It's even worse on the show since they're not even dating, and she's made it abundantly clear she has no romantic interest in him. And yet he forces himself on her. This is a serious offense, one he's old enough to be responsible for.

Story-wise, "Ski Trip" must come after "First Date". The characterization is too wonky otherwise, and I think the slap is the actual end of Hyde's pursuit of Donna. But it never should've gotten that far, where she has to strike his face to get him to back off.

[jackiehydelover]

As I said, no common ground.

I also think we may be reading WAY too much into a sitcom character here. As you mentioned before, they were trying to figure out Hyde's (and everyone else's) character in the first season. Should he have kissed her, of course not, but when I was growing up, this kind of stuff happened fairly frequently, so I personally think of it as something a teenager would do. They don't mean harm by it. It's the ones that take it to the next level. And Hyde would NEVER have took it to the next level.

[MistyMountainHop]

Originally Posted by jackiehydelover (View Post) As I said, no common ground.

And as I said, I'm not debating you. Just the idea you put forth. Not trying to convince you of a different POV.

Originally Posted by jackiehydelover (View Post) I also think we may be reading WAY too much into a sitcom character here.

Stories exist to be interpreted. They help us understand ourselves and our society. That '70s Show, for at least its first five seasons, goes deeper than entertainment. It explores the human condition. That's not to say people can't enjoy it just for the humor, but I like subtext and character development, etc.

Originally Posted by jackiehydelover (View Post) As you mentioned before, they were trying to figure out Hyde's (and everyone else's) character in the first season. Should he have kissed her, of course not, but when I was growing up, this kind of stuff happened fairly frequently, so I personally think of it as something a teenager would do. They don't mean harm by it.

Whether Hyde intended harm by forcing a kiss on Donna is irrelevant. He harmed her -- and willfully, consciously, ignored her "no". Full point.

Originally Posted by jackiehydelover (View Post) It's the ones that take it to the next level. And Hyde would NEVER have took it to the next level.

The Hyde of season 2 and beyond never would've gone as far as to kiss Donna against her will. We don't know how far the Hyde of season 1 would've taken things. It's unfortunate, but his character was manipulated to depict how good of a guy Eric is in contrast -- and once that storyline was over, any despicable character traits that were written into Hyde were dropped and never addressed.

[jackiehydelover]

You are taking this so far and what I'm saying completely into a different realm that it's getting ridiculous. I will no longer be commenting on the issue.

[MistyMountainHop]

Originally Posted by jackiehydelover (View Post) You are taking this so far and what I'm saying completely into a different realm that it's getting ridiculous. I will no longer be commenting on the issue.

I simply responded to the arguments you put forth. But I'm glad you're moving on because so am I.

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Captain Picard Dancing Interlude



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One of my favorite Hyde/Donna moments is from "Everybody Loves Casey" (426):

HYDE: So, you and Casey, huh?
DONNA: Look, Hyde, whatever you heard about Casey, he's changed now. He's mature.
HYDE: Oh, yeah. He's real mature.
DONNA: Well, I like him! We're together, and if you can't deal with that, then you can just go to hell!
HYDE: Hey, that's not barbecue language, young lady!

Hyde does his best to get through to Donna, opens up a dialogue about her dating Casey, but she's too caught up in her pain to recognize her self-destructiveness. Hyde clearly didn't like Donna dating Casey. He'd probably heard some nasty stories about Casey and girls from Kelso, and he wanted to protect her from it -- as he does in "Eric's False Alarm" (425).

[hanselnext]

Didn't realize there was a H/D thread. I'm not a H/D shipper but I'm also not against the idea as I am with E/J I do love their friendship and how Donna always went to Hyde for advice.

Casey was bad news and he was trying to get her to see that.

[MistyMountainHop]

Originally Posted by hanselnext (View Post) Didn't realize there was a H/D thread.

We have quite a few threads that are buried by the most active ones. We even have a Samantha/Hyde thread from way back when. But it has, like, four posts on it or something. You can find all the threads listed here: http://www.fanforum.com/f27/t7s-q-gu...-7-a-63119555/

Originally Posted by hanselnext (View Post) I'm not a H/D shipper but I'm also not against the idea as I am with E/J I do love their friendship and how Donna always went to Hyde for advice.

I'm exactly the same. I think it could've been interesting to see a more realistic depiction of an AU [than that of "It's a Wonderful Life" (401)] where Donna ended up with real!Hyde (i.e. post-"Career Day" Hyde). But it would have to be a short-lived AU. Can't have Hyde separated from Jackie too long.

Originally Posted by hanselnext (View Post) Casey was bad news and he was trying to get her to see that.

Hyde did what he could verbally and in actions ("Eric's False Alarm"). Unfortunately, Donna was too deep into her self-destruction/coping mechanisms to hear what her friends were saying about Casey. Casey had show his true colors vividly before she could see them.

[alyak0807]

I didn't know this thread existed either. H/D had a nice friendship.

[msstock87]

I agree, I did enjoy their friendship.

[Grazzhopper]

So how do you think it would have gone in a world where Hyde ended up being the one who gets with Donna? What if those two had been it, not Donna/Eric and Jackie/Hyde?

[MistyMountainHop]

Originally Posted by AgentGrasshopper (View Post) So how do you think it would have gone in a world where Hyde ended up being the one who gets with Donna? What if those two had been it, not Donna/Eric and Jackie/Hyde?

I think it depends on the writer. I see two ways it could go, one where the relationship is successful and one where it's not successful.

In the unsuccessful version, neither has much patience for each other's issues/needs.

• Hyde gets frustrated by the slow pace Donna wants to take their physical relationship, and he asks her if she really wants to be his girlfriend. He might also burn her passive-aggressively about it in front of their friends.
• Donna gets pissed at Hyde easily, and they fight a lot. Both can be stubborn, and neither are good at giving in.

In order for the relationship to be successful, Hyde would have to have the same patience with Donna he has with Jackie. He'd really have to be in love with her and want to see her happy, which would lead him to putting his ego and needs aside.

• Donna's more important to Hyde than his libido, and he waits for her as long as it takes, cuddling with her the way he did with Jackie those few weeks in "Bring It On Home"
• Hyde supports Donna through her parents' weird relationship. She feels safe sharing it with him because he understand how wacko parents can be, and that gives her more patience with him.

[hanselnext]

Originally Posted by MistyMountainHop (View Post) We have quite a few threads that are buried by the most active ones. We even have a Samantha/Hyde thread from way back when. But it has, like, four posts on it or something. You can find all the threads listed here: http://www.fanforum.com/f27/t7s-q-gu...-7-a-63119555/

Never thought there be H/S fans.

I have a hard time imagining a successful H/D relationship. Maybe because I can't imagine Hyde being happy with anyone but Jackie. I think H/D could've dated for a while in the earlier seasons if she had chosen Hyde over Eric but eventually it would've ended.

[MistyMountainHop]

Originally Posted by hanselnext (View Post) Never thought there be H/S fans.

Honestly, I think the H/S fans were more anti-J/H fans who "like" Hyde with Samantha because it means he's not with Jackie.

Originally Posted by hanselnext (View Post) I have a hard time imagining a successful H/D relationship. Maybe because I can't imagine Hyde being happy with anyone but Jackie. I think H/D could've dated for a while in the earlier seasons if she had chosen Hyde over Eric but eventually it would've ended.

I can't imagine Hyde being happy with anyone but Jackie, either. and

Donna, on the other hand, I could see possibly growing past Eric -- but only if she were really secure in herself. Eric provided her with a stability she sorely needed. I'm not sure if Hyde could've provided her with the same kind of stability, not until Jackie had inspired him to grow and change.

Donna wanted to travel the world and have "adventures". I could see her having a fling with a French artist named Jacques. But I'd prefer Eric to go on those adventures with her -- OPEN UP HIS WORLD, MAN!

[alyak0807]

*scratches head* I don't understand your words, Lisa. What is an anti-J/H fan? I've never heard of this.
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And I guess I could kind of see Donna moving on past Eric too.