Inesal

That comes across as rationalization. Zig was with Tori when he kissed Maya. Zig did not stop coming on to Maya when she was back with Cam. Neither did Zig back off when Maya told him to. Zig continued flirting with Maya in the open in this episode. And if one cannot see the difference between what Cam said to Zig and what Zig said in response at the end, that is troublesome.

By the way, my original post stated Cam was wrong to begin fighting. I don't absolve Cam from his responsibilities because he is cute. By the way, you may want to check into the damage that name calling can do in real life. If you think that cannot destroy someone, you are bigtime mistaken.

What Zig said at the end was loathsome. It was beyond cruel. It does not mean he cannot redeem himself. It doesn't mean he can't mature into a human being who is decent. But lately we have seen nothing that demonstrates that he is not a selfish scumbag who will hurt who ever he wants to to get what he wants.

Based on Zig character being poorly acted (possibly the worst acting on the show), not having much of a personality, and demonstrating scumbag tendencies, I can't find a reason anyone would find such a bland character appealing. That said, I have never been one to make my judgement of characters by how attractive they look.

ihavealife2uknow

Prior to this episode I didn't like Zig's behavior. However this episode I think he had a right to defend himself since Cam is the one that approached him both times, although what he said the second time was too harsh. He definitely was wrong for what he said but I don't blame him for what's probably going to happen to Cam.

JustMe2000

Maya, Dallas, Alli, Zig, Tristan, maybe one or two others I'm forgetting right now. I think this episode did a really good job of showing how those characters all had some "if I had just done that instead of this" moments that should haunt them if we think happens does end up happening. And with the possible exception of Zig (and Cam gave as good as he got there), none of the stuff those characters was over the top or out of character. Nicely done, Degrassi, nicely done.


1231
Cam- 39
Dallas- 35
Maya- 30
Alli- 20
Eli- 18
Clare- 11
Dave- 11
Fiona- 11
Katie- 10
Zig- 9
Snake- 8

1232
Maya- 39
Katie- 27
Eli- 18
Dallas- 14
Clare- 9
Fiona- 9
Tori- 9
Alli- 8

semmanclana

I know he was with Tori when they kissed, which is why she has every right to hate him. And yes Zig did stop coming on to Maya. Where did he make a pass at her the times she got back with Cam? Tying a bandana around her forhead is flirting? Smiling at her when she said they were on the team is flirting? And even if he was it does not give Cam the right to attack Zig.

Loathsome? Have you watched Degrassi? Pyscho is the worst name to be called? Zig called him that after Cam attacked him out of nowhere. Cause during that situation he did act like he was nuts. All you have done is ignore Cam starting BOTH times. Did Zig go up to Cam and make that remark? No! Zig was walking to school when Cam made the crack about his black eye. So he was the bully in both situations. Should Zig have retaliated, no, but they are highschool kids and I fully understand why Zig did. So maybe whats troublesome is you ignoring Cam's actions throughout this episode.

My god, we get it you dont think Ricardo can act. Thats YOUR opinion, doesnt make it fact. I think he can, I think Zig's an interesting character and I love the different sides we are seeing to him. Thats MY opinion. I dont just like characters cause they are attractive. If that was the case I would have liked Cam and I would like Drew.

Inesal

I am glad you brought up Tristan. Tristan, upset over Zig's repugnant treatment of Tori, ended up provoking Cam when he meant to bad talk Zig.

Cam didn't give as good as he got. Not even close. Zig attacked Cam's identity. It is the equivalent of two people getting in an argument and one calling the other, a closeted youth, the "f" word and pointing out how his family will turn their back on him. It is the equivalent of two people getting in an argument with one bringing up how the other was adopted because his biological parents did not want him. I am bringing up two situations I saw in high school which are in the same area of what Zig did.

To attack a person who has mental issues, a person who knows he has mental issues (including possibly clinical depression), and call them a psycho whose girlfriend will leave him once she figures it out steps over the boundaries into attacking the identity of the other individual. The only defense I will slightly give Zig on this is his immaturity.

I watched with several female friends tonight. All of us found Zig's comments to be among the most horrific ever spouted on television. They came from the darkest, most hateful place possible. Now Cam is a 9er and it is likely that if he does something stupid he will be okay. But reality is, and this is not hyperbole, saying something like that is the kind of thing that leads to people hurting or even killing themselves. Sounds silly maybe but it isn't. Again Zig is immature but this is not an offsetting thing. This is one person doing something wrong and another person, in retaliation, crossing into a place of staggering inhumanity. That is not hyperbole. It is also not uncommon.

Please don't say I did things I did not do. These are from my first post.

If you want to reply to me and debate points - cool. If you want to reply to me and make up me doing things - not so much.

CreateElements

I am very interested in how this plot will play out. I actually thought they would air both parts at the same time. I thought such an important plot point would not be separated like that.

I personally want to see Cam get some help. However, it would be interesting to see the other side of the spectrum. Should something tragic happen to Cam I hope that the aftermath is in more than one episode. I could see it being through the rest of this season.

Regardless of how things turn out with Cam it will be interesting to see the rest of the characters.

I am interested in seeing Zig’s character grow and learn after this. I think Zig is going to be one of those characters that take the long road to redemption. Because if something does happen to Cam no matter what other people say he would blame himself for what he said. It brings in that “what if” factor.

I foresee Tori, Tristan and Maya making up at some point possibly also forgiving Zig.

mellifluouscloud

Wow I was not expecting to wake up to such a heated debate this morning! I still need to watch the episode again, but I would like to climb up on my soapbox for a minute and defend Zig, since he needs it.

There are really a few separate events that happened and I think we need to pull them apart to understand what happened:

- Zig and Maya kissed in Doll Parts. In doing so, Zig cheated on Tori, but Maya did not cheat on Cam because they were broken up.

- Cam and Maya got back together. Maya was honest with Cam about the kiss. He forgave her.

- Zig was planning to break up with Tori, but she found out about the kiss while they were still together. Tori is justified in her anger toward both Zig and Maya.

Okay, so... with all of that in mind, Cam understandably feels threatened by Zig. But this does not justify his violence toward Zig! Yes, Zig screwed up when he kissed Maya. He owes Tori an apology. But Maya and Cam were broken up when she kissed Zig. There was no cheating. Zig doesn't have to apologize for that.

And I get that Cam doesn't like seeing Zig and Maya together in any way, even if it's completely innocent -- which it was when Zig helped Maya with her bandana. This does not justify the initiation of force! Mr. Simpson recognized this and Cam's act of aggression got him suspended because he was at fault. This is no moral "gray area." It's black and white. Zig did not deserve it.

Now, I need to watch the episode again, but I don't even understand how or why Cam was able to sit on the front steps of the school while being suspended. I guess he wasn't supposed to be there and would have faced more punishment if he had been caught? Anyway, in this scene, he confronted Zig. How is Zig supposed to react?! This guy beat him up the day before. Zig and Cam should be kept far, far away from each other... no doubt about that.

Were Zig's words incredibly harsh? Yes, of course. I won't dispute that. He will regret his choice of words later, I'm sure of it. But Cam was sitting there gloating about how he punched Zig and how he "wins" with Maya. Zig reacted. He wanted to defend himself. And yes -- he wanted to hurt Cam with his words, because Cam hurt him the day before and he has the black eye to prove it.

In the end, if Cam does what we all think he will do, no one is responsible for it. I firmly believe that Cam has undiagnosed mental illness because his behavior is not normal. A healthy person doesn't experience frequent bouts of violent depression, or say things like "I wish I could go to sleep and never wake up." Cam is sick and needs treatment. Nonetheless, having a disease doesn't give you license to inflict harm on others.

I agree with you. Part one was arranging all the dominoes in a neat little row. Part two will be knocking them down.

Forwood4Bamon

word. I also loved seeing Jake in the ep.

Inesal

What is telling here is the line - "How is Zig supposed to react?!"

He should react like a human being with a modicum of decency than a vile bully who seeks the emotional destruction of another human being. And that is, in that moment what he seeks. There is no defense of what Zig said. None. He could easily have said "Don't talk to me." or he could have been a decent human being and said "Look I am sorry. Maya is with you and me still coming on to her when you two were back together was out of line."

I have to ask. Are you a big fan of Zig? Because frankly, your defense of the character seems more adoring fan based than anything.

This is a common problem not just with tv characters. We allow the thought process that it is a character we love to overwhelm a realistic viewpoint of what occurs.

Right now, I would hope the expression would be that Zig needs to seriously redeem himself. He needs to look deep into who he is as a human being. Hopefully Cam doesn't do anything too stupid (though it would be realistic if someone such as Cam confronted in that manner by something so incredibly hateful would lose hope). Zig has now mistreated Tori, not backed off of Maya when asked, and has went to the lowest possible place in a confrontation with Cam.

The hope would be all fans hope for a redemptive process for him. But to defend Zig's actions is beyond me.

Janelle

It's seriously degrading for you to keep repeating that the only reason anyone would defend Zig is because he's "cute." How about they see things differently? Cam went after Zig both times. Was Zig harsh? Yes, but he didn't start it.

Inesal

It is not degrading to you. It is being realistic. Rationalizations of indefensible behavior come out of many things in real life. On tv and in dealing with teen characters, it typically comes based on an adoration of looks.

That said, frankly when one gets to a point where they rationalize defend vile and inhuman behavior because the other person started the argument (which you do here), that should be a sign to maybe take a step back and think harder on the situation.

For example, I don't defend Cam getting violent. I say it is wrong and even say Maya does the right thing in telling the truth. That is because I am not overcome by fan worship (particularly looks) to cause me to rationalize indefensible behavior.

mellifluouscloud

I believe in the non-aggression principle. Cam violated it. Zig reacted. End of story.

Janelle

See i'm not all that invested in Degrassi or any of it's character. I actually like Cam and Maya/Cams relationship. However I saw nothing vile or inhuman about Zigs behavior. He said some harsh words but he's hardly the first or worst in Degrassis history.

Inesal

That seems simplistic to me. Yesterday, two 5th graders were arrested because they planned to murder a girl. Their defense was the girl was mean to them. Going by your principle, the boys would be okay to do what they did. After all she started it by being aggresive to them according to the boys.

That is thankfully not how it works and I know that is not what you believe either. That is why a broad definition of right and wrong (one started it/the other ended it) does not really work here. If Cam does something stupid, ultimately that will be on Cam. If he was to go to the school and shoots Zig, Cam should be the one held responsible. If Cam does something stupid to himself, Zig is ultimately not the one who should be held responsible*.

What Zig is responsible is for his own actions though. He is responsible for acting in a way that is not stripped of any human decency and does not lower oneself to a hateful, spiteful scumbag. His responsibility is to himself as a human being. He also has a responsibility to others as a human being to act like one. He took the argument that Cam started to a place of no turning back, to one of sheer inhumanity. It wasn't just harsh. It was't just too much. It goes beyond that. He attacked Cam's identity and said how Cam's identity would ruin him. To say he is entitled to react as he did because Cam started the talk is wrongheaded. The "he/she started it" defense as far as causing a reaction that is inhuman does not cut it.

*This last point is contentious. Eating breakfast this morning with friends, I disagreed with some who stated Zig's actions, because they crossing into an identity attack, are worthy of a suspension. I was surprised I was in the minority on the issue. My argument was that I don't think many teens can be expected to have a comprehension that an attack on one's mental faculties can be an attack on one's identity. I guess my friends, two of whom are teachers, are right in that Zig clearly adapted the traits of the worst type of bully - the one who attacks the identity of someone else. I did point out how Zig did not say it around other people which makes it less horrifying in my opinion. It is difficult. Yes Zig went to a most dangerous area of verbal bullying. On the other hand, I don't think he necessarily understands he did so. One of the friends, who is far more knowledgeable than me, says I am underestimating how bad what Zig did was. I don't mean to do so. I just don't know if Zig has a comprehension of the horrific behavior he displayed.

For instance, we all know that calling a gay child the "F" word and saying their family will disown them, is a clearcut case of bullying based on attacking someone's identity. But when it comes to mental concerns, how much does Zig or most children that age know? While my friend said Zig should be suspended because the potential damage from his behavior could be horrendous, it still is a tough one for me to fully comprehend.

Hopefully in the next episode, Zig will own up and apologize to Cam (just as Cam should apologize for hitting Zig). However if Cam does something stupid to himself (which others here seem to think he will and would be realistic based on what Zig said/Cam's mental problems creating a combustible mix), Zig will probably have a long, difficult journey to redemption - one in which he will need to reappraise his behavior bigtime.

mellifluouscloud

I am not familiar with the event that you referred to, but thinking of committing a crime is not a crime, so I fail to see the relevance.

Cam assaulted Zig. Zig does not throw a single punch throughout this scene. (Even if he had, it would have been justified as self-defense.)









Cam confronted Zig on the steps.



Exact dialogue of their conversation:

Yes, I'm a huge fan of Zig. I'm also a pretty big fan of Cam, too. I think Cam was one of the best additions to the cast in the history of the show. But he's clearly in the wrong here, regardless of whatever mental illness he most definitely has.