crash landing

Still need to catch up with the Netflix!Marvel So won't be seeing The Defenders anytime soon

sum1

Avengers vs X-Men is crap. Particularly in its portrayal of Scott.

PhoenixRising

Thanks for bumping this thread up! I had forgotten where it was.

Yeah, Avengers vs. X-Men was a good idea that got way out of hand. They'd done the Avengers vs. X-Men thing before in the comics, but never to the extent of destroying characters the way they did in that storyline.

sum1

The 21st century series was very biased against the X-Men. The original X-Men vs Avengers series from the '80s was a bit biased against the X-Men too, because it was written by the regular Avengers writer. But it wasn't anything like this thing. The recent series sets out from the beginning to vilify Cyclops. And it's incredibly stupid how the Marvel universe managed to find itself in a position that resulted in Wolverine being on the Avengers side, rather than the X-Men's. The whole nonsense about Wolverine and Spider Man being Avengers this century is a load of bull. I think even Doctor Strange has been an Avenger at some point this century. I mean I wouldn't be surprised by now if they made Galactus or the Juggernaut into bloody Avengers. All of the above is a classic example of how Marvel comics have gone crazy in the 21st century.

PhoenixRising

Oh, you mean this one, sum1? Yeah, those old 80's covers were nice. But I was thinking more of this one from back in the 60's.

sum1

The one from the '60s wasn't a seperate series. It was just a brief crossover.

PhoenixRising

Yeah, I know it was only a crossover, but that's what I meant. I preferred those to what X vs. A did.

sum1

The 21st century version was an abomination. And the JRJR art wasn't even much use (that's what I read it for). That series was from a period when Disney had been in charge of Marvel for while already. Bad as things were earlier in the 21st century, things got REALLY corrupted after Disney took over.

I think the '80s one was Silvestri's first X-Men assignment. That's his art on the cover.

The '60s one is reprinted in one of the Avengers hardback omnibuses.

PhoenixRising

I agree. They just trashed everyone with the 21st century version.

And do you mean THE Abomination, Emil Blonsky? Or IT was an abomination?

I just hope that Marvel doesn't allow all this Disney nonsense to totally corrupt it. They need to get back to basics and enough with this "All New, All Different" crap. Did they learn nothing from DC's mistakes?

I know, I like that old Avengers vs. X-Men cover from the 60's. Notice Hank Pym as Giant Man? His presence in those early Avengers stories can't be understated.

Marc Silvestri? Didn't he go on to do Cyberforce for Image Comics?

sum1

Not bloody Blonsky. :throws the Abomination across North America:

Who the wants "all new" anyway? I want the old stuff! That was one of the most useless lineups the Avengers ever had. I prefer it when Thor or Hercules are with the team. Or even Cap or Iron Man. Or Monica Rambeau or She-Hulk. Or Vision or Wonder Man.

I understand you may like that lineup out of nostalgia, but my nostalgia is for the mid '80s (my childhood) and the early '70s (my uncles' comics). I've never had much time for Hank Pym. He just never caught my imagination. And I know the Black Panther is important as the first black superhero, but I think they did a much better job with Bishop (who's still black as far as I'm concerned!) and Storm and Monica Rambeau. I like the Wasp and Hawkeye well enough, but I never found them terribly exciting.

What they did to Bishop, btw, is a classic example of the awful things Marvel has done this century. They switched him from African American to Australian Aborigne background, which insults both groups. Firstly, it steals a character from African Americans when there aren't many of such characters and secondly it insults both groups by acting like they're interchangeable and don't have separate identities. Like everybody dark-skinned is the same. And I think they made Bishop a traitor too.

I never gave much of a damn about Image. I remember him on X-Men and Wolverine. Never was crazy about his style, but he sort of grew on me.

PhoenixRising

You mean like the way Hank Pym did?



And I understand what you mean, sum1, but my childhood was the 70's and my teenage years were the 80's, and Hank Pym was a big part of the Avengers stories I grew up on. And it's not just nostalgia, I think Hank is integral to the Avengers, otherwise Marvel wouldn't have kept him for as long as they have. I agree that his schizophrenic Yellowjacket period was a mess(and not his fault), but I still liked his character along with Wasp, as well as when they were both with the West Coast Avengers. Yeah, I know you don't like that one either. But I still think that Marvel was the one that screwed up, not Hank. If they'd have just kept Hank as an Ant-Man/Giant-Man combo(like in Earth's Mightiest Heroes) and not screwed around with giving him so many different identities or mental disorders they wouldn't have had any problems. But I also agree with you about She-Hulk, Wonder Man, Thor, etc. I know, I hate this "All New" crap as well. I actually liked Black Panther. Bishop is with the X-Men, so I don't think that'll work. But they made him an aborigine? Yeah, because why not? And I liked Image at first, but only Spawn, Youngblood, Wild C.A.T.S., and The Savage Dragon. The others didn't really grow on me. I eventually gave up on Image after a year or two.

I actually would've made the Ant-Man movie about Hank being a young genius who is the more pacifist opposite of Tony Stark. Having been turned down by Stark Industries because his work is deemed too impractical and theoretical, Hank worked for the government designing nanotech only to have his technology taken from him by the military(like the movie Real Genius) to make insect-sized military drones. They also take Hank's quantum nanotech A.I. program(based on his own brain pattern) designed to be an operating system to control the drones which would later become Ultron. Afterwards he's so disillusioned he quits and forms his own troubleshooting team of tech geniuses who do security work and special assignments(like the movie Sneakers and the TV show Scorpion) until he's approached for a job by SHIELD and Vernon Van Dyne(along with his daughter, Janet) to steal back Van Dyne technology from someone. But then after a rogue SHIELD Agent, Eric O'Grady(who works for A.I.M.) steals Hank's Pym particle tech for A.I.M. to build a new super-suit called W.A.S.P., Hank and his team go after A.I.M. and plan a heist to steal back his tech with the help of Janet after her father is killed by A.I.M. O'Grady dons the suit and becomes Yellowjacket and he and Hank(as Ant-Man) battle it out, with Hank winning with the help of Janet, who took another W.A.S.P. suit for herself and later christens herself, "The Wasp." Both Hank and Janet are recruited as SHIELD agents and are asked by Nick Fury to help out with a new project involving a cosmic cube called the Tesseract, which of course leads into The Avengers movie. That's how I would've done it. And I'd have told Edgar Wright, thanks, but no thanks. You can go make that Baby Driver movie instead.

sum1

Cartoons don't count.

I've seen the Avengers work fine without Hank many times. Obviously he's a classic Avenger, but I don't see him as essential.


I like the West Coast Avengers fine. I just don't consider them to be the Avengers (no matter what John Byrne thinks). It's like X-Factor and New Mutants aren't the X-Men. The WCA were a spinoff team. And Hank's Yellowjacket period isn't my big problem with him. I just find him boring in any of his incarnations.

Hank's a fictional character. Marvel's what's real and he's their creation.


I think they screwed around with him so much because they found him less interesting than other characters (like I do) and felt the need to mess with him to improve on that. If you look at Hank's history in Marvel, it's pretty clear they never knew what to do with him. To me it looks like that's because they never found the crucial spark to really bring him alive. Certainly to me he never came alive as a character and thus never grabbed my attention or interest.


I never implied my comparison of Bishop and the Black Panther was about either of them being members of the Avengers. I was just comparing them as individual characters. The Black Panther was the first black superhero and that makes him important, but I think the later black superhero, Bishop, is a much better character. More interesting, more personality. The Black Panther is too perfect. He's like a DC character. He's like Batman. Most characters like that get on my nerves. That's why I'm a Marvel fan rather than a DC fan. Bishop isn't perfect. He's a real live guy with a lot of passion and motivation. He's got real limits, which make his real abilities genuinely heroic. He isn't some guy who's great at everything and all-around perfect. The Black Panther is this super-wise/super-genius science whiz/top level master combatant/ideal ruler. That's like the way Batman is the world's best detective, the world's best fighter and able to beat everybody despite having no superpowers. That's a DC-style hero. The Black Panther is a DC style hero, not like Marvel heroes, who tend to be more mortal even when they're gods (classic example: Hercules, a god eternally making a mess of things). I also like Luke Cage more than I like the Black Panther. He's not Mr Perfect, so he's relatable. He's got a lot of kick. I just wish they'd ugrade his powers more. In the '80s he could only lift a few tons. Now he can lift about 40. Why not 100 tons? The Falcon has always been somewhat underdeveloped in comics I've read and he doesn't exactly have wonderful powers, but Anthony Mackie has done a great job with him in the MCU. Marvel's foremost black female characters include two of my favorite Marvel characters, Storm and Monica Rambeau. They're both excellent characters.

I don't hate the Black Panther, but I do think he's overrated and I think that because he's the first black superhero he's seen as the best of Marvel's black superheroes and I just don't think he is that. I'll be seeing the MCU Black Panther film and maybe Chadwick Boseman can do something good with him. A good actor can improve any character, like I feel Ben Affleck did great with Batman, a character who I usually feel is an overrated git.

And anyway, I was talking about the Avengers lineup with Hank Pym, the Wasp, the Black Panther and Hawkeye. None of those are favorites of mine or even secondary favorites, and they were all fairly low power at the time (I don't like characters to be perfect, but I do like them to be high-powered). So that lineup really didn't interest me much.

It was a dumb, offensive decision.

See, that's a list of titles I wanted to have nothing to do with the '90s. I felt it was all shallow flash and creator starpower. Youngblood, ick, that was Rob Liefeld.

Who the wants a film where the hero is called "Baby"?

Edited in later: Sorry about coming down on Hank so hard. I know the character means a lot to you and I sympathize. I guess it's just that you repeatedly going out of your way to defend the character tends to provoke me, because I can't for the life of me understand how anybody could find the guy interesting. I guess we're coming at the character from different perspectives.

sum1

Multiple days later justifies an additional post:
In 21st century Marvel comics, characters like Wolverine, Spider Man, Doctor Strange, Luke Cage, Iron Fist and the Thing have been members of the Avengers. Anybody who knows 20th century Marvel will see how ridiculous that is. None of those characters belong on the Avengers. Parrticularly not Spider Man and Wolverine. They ended up having Wolverine fighting for the Avengers against the X-Men. Beyond crazy. And the recent Spider Man fim revolves around him aiming to become an Avenger. Spider Man in the old days was firmly a solo operative who teamed up with other superheroes only on a temporary basis. Wolverine belongs with the X-Men, not fighting against them. He's a fringe figure, not a member of Marvel Earth's most mainstream super-team. Marvel has really lost its way this century.

PhoenixRising

I'll reply to your comments on Hank Pym later, sum1. Your statement regarding Hank Pym can easily be applied to several Marvel comics characters, which I will expand on later.

However, let me just say that I agree with you about Wolverine being with the Avengers. I was never really okay with that situation, although it is not without precedent. Wolverine is not the first X-Men member to have joined The Avengers. That honor goes to Hank McCoy, The Beast, back in the 1970's, most notably during the Korvac Saga. I suspect that having Wolverine join The Avengers was due to the characters' popularity in the 21st century X-Men films. But I do believe you're incorrect about Spider-Man not belonging in the Avengers. I recall in both the 1970's and 80's, Spider-Man had applied for membership only to be turned down due to erroneous circumstances. Back in the 80's Spider-Man applied for membership and teamed up with The Avengers on yet another adventure, only to have his application rejected by SHIELD Agent Gyrich due to security reasons having to do with his anonymity. But Spider-Man was finally given reserve Avenger status in the 1990's, prior to 21st century Marvel. I think Spider-Man taking The Human Torch's place on the Fantastic Four was a bit more of a stretch.

sum1

Sure Spider Man was considered for the Avengers for years, but very conspicuously he never got on the team for real. Circa 1990, they even had him join for one mission and screw up and get fired just to show why he shouldn't be an Avenger. His later '90s reserve status didn't count for much -he helped them out with their Morgan le Fay problem and then left again, because he wasn't a team player and because the writers damn well knew he didn't belong. It wasn't until the 21st century that he became an Avenger for real in any sort of lasting way. He doesn't belong on the team and that's why Marvel kept him off it for so long. It was only when Marvel tried to make the Avengers into a collection of Marvel's most popular heroes that he became a real member, to capitalize on the popularity of the Spider Man films. He no more belongs on the team than Wolverine.

The Beast joined the Avengers in the '70s, but he was far more appropriate for them than Wolverine, who's very much a rebel fringe figure. The Avengers are mainstream establishment team. Wolverine doesn't belong there and nor does the media-hated solo wall-crawler. And no amount of Marvel Team-Up issues can change that latter status.