airali_glo

Since we are talking about this in the S1 thread - and there it's off topic - I decided finally to open this thread

a new hope

Karen/Derek Because I thought last season was a shipping MESS

MrღMrsStinsbatskys

I really think the movie would've been a big hit both for Karen and for Eileen. Ivy would've had her pregnancy storyline and probably be with Derek. Not sure what Derek will do considering he didn't have the best reputation in season 2 so he could have either produced/directed another musical or done a movie. He could have done the movie they talked about in the finale.

airali_glo

Yeah, for Karen and Eileen the movie could have been a great thing, also to bond a little. Eileen after all could be her mother, especially for her experience. She could help her. We saw that a little in the finale, but it would have been nice to explore that in S3.

I imagine a big musical, set in another time, maybe in another century - so older than Marilyn's 50/60s. Karen is the main character and has a great male co-star (not Jimmy), that maybe becomes one of her closest friends (something like Ivy and Sam). We saw her spending time with the ensemble, we know about her friendship with Krysta and also with Kyle, but she didn't have a friend like was Sam for Ivy. Her relationship with Derek and Jimmy were different.
A friendship would have been nice, without necessarily exploring the romantic way.

I don't ship Divy and I don't like them, but I can see them trying to be together for the baby, but - being a Cartwills fan - I can't see Derek simply forgetting Karen. I imagine a slooooooow build up for them, especially from Karen's part. We didn't see Karen's reaction at the "new" Derek, so I'd have loved to see the evolution of this, from her part. Oh and also Derek showing her that he's not "bad" and that he can change.

I can't really see Jimmy or, better, I can't imagine him really after the prison. Maybe trying to find a new musical to perform and struggling because of his past, that make it difficult to do? Jimmy wasn't a performer like the other characters, even if he was the star of HL. So maybe the contrary, dealing with the success of HL and also looking "intriguing" to the people because of his "bad guy" past, so they all want him for musicals and stuff...but he doesn't want to perform again, he just wants to write, for Karen, maybe, for new independent musicals. But she's in the movie world, she's in Hollywood, and Jimmy starts to think that she's not the same anymore.

Karen in Hollywood, as I said, but always with the musical theatre in her heart. She's not changed like Jimmy thinks, but at the same time she can't connect with him anymore. Under the star surface she's always the same "dreaming" woman that works hard, but the showbiz made her look different from the outside. She's still learning how to be herself in this world. She's still close to Derek even if they don't work together at the movie (at the beginning he's not the director of it, because he's busy with the baby and Ivy, so he doesn't want to leave NY for Hollywood. But at some point he decides to leave and do it), so she asks often for advice and they know each other better.

Ana is back from her Once tour (she had taken the Diva role back for some time, but then she decided to take this chance anyway). She had success with it and now is ready to come back to Broadway. I admit that it would have been nice to see Ana and Ivy in the same musical! Although they were different performers - in terms of style, I mean - but who knows? Maybe a S3 thing! With Ivy still in Bombshell for half of the season and then in another one.

a new hope

This

As far as Jimmy goes, I don't know what his storyline could be...like you said, he's not a performer, I can't picture him trying to get back into the spotlight.

airali_glo

Yeah, he's not a performer, really, even though he was great at singing and all (I'm talking about the character, obviously, not about Jeremy who is a real performer ) and worried that someone else could take the role away for him - Sam/others.

Jimmy is a composer that happens to be a great singer, but his "goal" never was to be a performer, right? He never said it. He played Jesse because that was his musical, the creation of him and Kyle. But in the last episode he said that the musical could stand even without him and Karen, he knew in the end that they had created something brilliant that could go on without them, with other actors and singers. He said this mostly because of the prison thing, but I think he was talking also about his being involved in it as performer.

I don't know, I can imagine him performing again because people loved him in HL and want to see him again on stage, but I'm not so sure he'd do it after the prison. He wanted success for HL because of Kyle, not for himself. He's a great composer and seeing like we did in S2, I can imagine him more writing a new musical, rather than performing again - no matter how the HL audience and fans asked him to do it.

a new hope

Yeah. Although the thing about Jimmy is that he is a character who needs to be connected to a main character in order to work on the show, so his storyline would HAVE to be focused around show business otherwise it just wouldn't make sense, so he'd either have to do another show/movie/whatever with Karen/Derek/someone or he'd have to leave the show, IMO.

airali_glo

Well, yeah, but basically everyone, not only him, has to be in the show business...we already saw how end stories not about it (like the Julia adoption or Dev). Even Kyle that wasn't a performer, had stories about show business. BUT Jimmy, after S2 where he connected with some characters, could have a story not related to Karen only, for example. He knows Ana, Tom and others now recognize his work, he even knows Veronica Moore, a famous star. He was a Tony nominee. So he could interact with new people and at the same time grow as an artist and man - I guess the prison was the first step of this, for him, even though we won't see what's next.

He can meet another partner and write stuff. Have success. Or, at the contrary, struggle after the HL success AND the prison because even if people loved him as Jesse (and as the composer), now he's not "fashion" anymore, so people aren't interested in him anymore, but he can't accept it. This could be another thing useful to explore more his character.

a new hope

I wish he would just go away.

I think the big question mark would be Derek. His image seemed to have been pretty ruined by the end of the season, even though he won the award.

airali_glo

Really? You didn't like Jimmy, uh? I wasn't a fan of him either, but he became a part of the story so I can't imagine him going away Plus Jeremy is a great singer and the show needed more male singers


That story was bad for his career, but in this business...people can forget if the man is talented. Derek is a brilliant director and choreographer, people can dislike the man but the work is good. It was a scandal, but who knows? Maybe with a time jump...

We can also imagine: after some time, he struggles to get big works again. He only finds little projects outside NY. Ivy would like to help him, but she can't because Broadway producers doesn't want him. Neither Karen can help him. If we don't want to make him work again with Jimmy (who hasn't a better career, after prison) we can imagine Derek meeting a new young couple of composers/writers with some bad/dark past but very very talented, that wrote a musical. This dark past of the duo could be good or bad for him, with time...

shinebrighterxx

Jimmy annoyed me so I wouldn't mind if he disappeared but on the other hand I'd like to see if he changed after prison. A part of me thinks he would have been written out for a little bit because he was meant to be locked away. This would have provided time for Karen to disappear & he not be sure how to connect with her once he is out (like what was already mentioned)

I think the movie would have been good & given us knew opportunities to see certain characters interact. If Tom & Julia were the writers for it then we'd continue to see them interacting & hopefully being friends again for good. Then I would have loved to see more interaction between Karen & them as well as Karen & Eileen. But it would have been mostly interesting to see how Karen was in the new situation. It wasn't her dream but I think she would have enjoyed the experience. I don't know that it would have changed her, but I think she would have grown some more still (like she grew between the first & second season). I also think that Karen & Ivy would have been able to be more like friends with Karen doing the movie. But on the other hand we have Derek. He could cause some problems between them if he starts having a wandering eye. Yes I ship Divy, however I do see him wanting to keep working & be trying to work on the movie. I don't think he'd be able to magically change & be good for Ivy or a good father. He's going to make mistakes & just because they have a child together doesn't mean they'd have to stay together. He'd try to support Ivy but they both were independent so I think they'd both want each other to keep working & chasing their dreams as much as they can too. I think they'd support that but then there would be a possibility of Cartwills. But I also don't know that Karen would want that because she may not want to hurt Ivy I think she'd at least protest at first if things went in that direction

I'm not sure what they'd do with the ensemble & characters like Ana. It would be nice to see them all (& Ivy) end up in a new musical & move on from Bombshell/Hit List. Some stay with a musical for YEARS though so I don't think that'd happen. Ivy would leave Bombshell because of her baby the ensemble would have no reason to leave though. They were minor characters but so may not have mattered

airali_glo

I think the same, especially when she was supposed to be the new musical movie star (Ivy couldn't have be in it because of the baby, Safran said).
And also it would have create more drama for him as a character, struggling to start a new life, with the past haunting him.


This. I always thought that we saw her very little with Eileen and the others. Even when she was still the star of Bombshell, Eileen and the others were all more with Ivy - she knew her better, I know, but Karen was a big part of the team. Only Julia had some interactions with her, when she was alone there and without friends.
Eileen gave her speech after the Tony and I liked her words, although I'd have preferred to hear them from Derek. Eileen basically always ignored her and now all of a sudden she talked like that. It was a little bit weird.


Maybe this movie could have been the BIG chance for her, to become really famous. In S2 we knew about her Boston success and also her success after the Fringe, but it was more "said" than "seen". S2 was supposed to be about her carreer, but we didn't see it very much, it was merged with Jimmy and other stories. Hollywood is bigger than Broadway and there's even more competition and pressure: maybe this would have had a clearer and bigger impact on her, more than what we actually saw in S2. I'd would have liked to see her in this new world without falling in love with a costar or things like this - not because of Jimmy, but to see her growing and developing alone as a character, not depending on a romance. Derek also had a deep influence on her, but it wasn't like with Jimmy.



I agree. I think he would have changed a little, but not too much - Derek is Derek he would have stayed with Ivy, but I wonder if working without her, with karen again, without Jimmy...Derek was still fond on Karen and cared about her. The problem is that yeah, they made peace in the finale, but (obviously) the thing was quick. It would have been interesting to see them rebuilding their relationship, with Karen trusting him again. That's the first thing to fix - I'm still bummed that they hadn't a close moment after the Tonys, but there wasn't time for everything Yeah, her not wanting to hurt Ivy is easy to imagine, especially with the baby.

It would have been interesting to see maybe Karen developing deeper feelings towards him and he not wanting to start a relationship with her. So the reverse of the previous seasons. We always saw clearly Derek's side, Karen's was less clear (although during Boston weeks Ivy said that they looked like a couple! I wanted to see! ).
Carwills, to me, could have a chance on late S3 or even 4. They had a slooooow building that had a certain "stop" in S2, so...


Maybe Ana could have joined the movie too. Since a new theatre musical could have been difficult - Safran said that Broadway would have been still Bombshell - she could have get a part in it too. Ivy would have stayed with Bombshell, Safran said. Hit List had still some songs to show, sung by Ana, Jimmy and also a new character (Jesse's best friend. In the concert it was played by Andy and the song was "Swim").
I would have liked to see more Sam singing and performing in general, I know he was a guest star, but he's so good!

Can you imagine a musical with Ivy and Ana together, instead? They're different Broadway voices (and musical genre), but!

shinebrighterxx

I don't see Ivy as a movie star even if she wasn't distracted with the pregnancy

Agreed about Ivy getting more attention than Karen. It seemed odd but I think the scene at the end with Karen & Eileen showed that she did care despite her focus being elsewhere at times in the past & them not interacting as much as they could have

It would have been wonderful if they could have made it without her having a love. She didn't need love, she could have been alone. Focus on her career & allow her to be big or try to be big somewhere. It was her chance to really shine there & she didn't have Ivy there to step in her way (hopefully they wouldn't have had someone else there instead)

I wouldn't rule out Cartwills as being a possibility. Love triangles are hard & giving Ivy a baby makes it harder. However just because you have a child with someone doesn't mean you love them or doesn't mean that there isn't someone you care for more. It also doesn't mean that two people have to stay together. They might try but there was always a possibility of feelings to grow/deepen/be revealed or shown more & for Karen & Derek to get closer. But this closeness may have ended up just being a short fling & he could have gone back to Ivy idk but I do think that the baby doesn't rule out the possibility of them

Ivy & Ana really would have been interesting to see

airali_glo

But I can see her being jelous - again - of Karen because she has success also in cinema.


It would have had more sense from Derek, anyway, or maybe Julia. The thing with shows is that stuff can't really exist or be true off screen, we need to see it, otherwise it's just our thinking...and we never see Eileen caring about her, not in that way. Even at the beginning of the season Eileen seemed to talk to her only because she played Marilyn - so she was the main actress of her musical. She always seemed to care more about Ivy (like when Karen has to choose some background singers and Eileen clearly hopes for her to choose Ivy).
This was a pity, because Eileen could be a mentor for her, with all her experience and with what she tells Karen in that final scene. Karen was only a little bit older than her daughter and that was a difficult business. Eileen had heart (she wanted to produce Hit List, even) and Karen needed a motherly figure, someone who could advise her.


Yeah. I hoped for this in S2, but she immediately met Jimmy and her career merged with the story of everyone else and it got messy.

The movie is a great chance for her: working again with Derek now would be different because she's not anymore the green girl of S1 and Derek also is not the same person. Karen now knows even more that she's a star and focusing on work would have been the best thing for her.

I doubt it, an "enemy" creates drama but maybe this time a different one, not again a situation like the one with Ivy.


With Divy I think the shipping matters, because if you ship them you see feelings of love, too - so also the idea of them being an happy couple with their baby - but if you don't (like me) have a different opinion. Personally I doubt they could became an happy couple only because of the baby. Ok, Derek is changed a little, but I've never seen such a deep love between them anyway. Derek had different feelings towards Karen and Ivy so the relationships were different.

I agree though, the baby doesn't necesarily mean that Cartwills were impossible (I wonder what Safran thinks ). To work as a stable relationship Cartwills should have became more than the simple attraction and muse thing and starting to know each other more and deeper.

They talked to each other only once! I can't really see Ivy in a Hit List like musical, though but Ana surely wouldn't be like Karen, if Ivy starts acting like a diva I think also that Ana and Ivy has a similar work experience (in terms of year in this business, I mean).

Do you think they would have brought back Dev, at some point?

shinebrighterxx

I agree to that. Jealousy will always be there, it is a part of the show, but I really wish they could move past that & let them be friends

I agree with that, it was a missed opportunity & an odd scene. It depends on how you want to look at it, & maybe something between them was cut out, but they could have done a lot more & differently with the two. But they also could have had someone else go & speak with Karen. I think Julia would have been the best person, although Derek probably would have made Cartwills fans feel a tiny bit better & it would have given you a scene

S2 was a mess, & I think part of why I didn't like Jimmy was because I didn't agree with what they did with him. I didn't think Karen should get a boyfriend so quickly or that she needed one. It was the perfect opportunity for her to move on & focus on her career but instead they preferred to have her in a relationship. This gives me more reason to really hope that had they had S3 they would have fixed that & had her alone. Even if it was just for the start & because Jimmy was in prison, it was a start towards what S2 should have been

I think with a movie there is less ways to give her someone to conflict with. Instead they could have kept with Ivy but it would be conflict over Derek?

I ship Divy & while I'd LOVE for their happily ever after & them to be a happy family I don't know that that is what we would have gotten. Then I also don't think that baby = happily ever after or that they have to stay together. I guess I just want to see both sides even though I didn't ship Cartwills . I think my shipping of Divy is more I see potential & that they are adorable together. I'd be happy for them to just be friends, they don't necessarily have to be a couple. That possibly adds to why I can see it like this too. Safran shipped Divy, right? That'd probably get in the way of our ideas here, but I like them anyway . Really I think it is possible that Ivy loved Derek but Derek loved Karen, which complicates things & if Karen turned around & loved Derek back then I'd be happy with it as long as Ivy & Derek remained friends & had cute scenes together still

Agreed about Ana & Ivy having the similar experience. They possibly have crossed paths, but go for different musicals usually? Therefore never a competition. Karen could do anything while Ivy seemed to be more suited for Bombshell or Liasons while Ana was more suited for Hit List. However they may have changed the characters had the show gone on. I think it would be a few seasons in before we got a new musical with a chance of those two interacting/both being in it though. Especially with Ivy having a baby as she'd leave Bombshell when she couldn't do it anymore since she couldn't play Marilyn pregnant for too long then she'd possibly stay with the baby. I don't know that I see her trying to perform with the baby off to the side. Not at first anyway

Maybe but I don't think that we would have seen Dev again. Unless he randomly showed up to try & apologise to Karen? Ick

What do you think would have happened with Eileen & Nick?