PhoenixRising

Wow! This board moved so fast I can't keep up with everyone's posts! I'm such a lousy moderator!

I was talking to Arinna earlier about how Francois and Holliday are different from all the other actors who have played Cesare and Lucrezia in that they're the only ones who actually give you a reason to want them together. The BBC series made you kind of dislike them, even though there was definite heat between the actors for a while. Mark and Isolda on Borgia don't really give you much reason to ship them at all, as their relationship is somewhat underdeveloped and both characters also have some rather distasteful traits. Francois and Holliday really do make Cesare and Lucrezia an epic love story that just seduces the audience in spite of their incestuous nature. I feel like I'm writing an essay on them.

Katja82

And I love that they put a real effort into the costumes and styles and so on in The Borgias. I was a bit shocked about that in Borgia. Ok, Showtime probably has a higher budget, but it is also the details that make a show feel real.

Hi Alex.

BL.Arinna_1982

I think you should write and publish that essay, Alex.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Katja!

I think other people have already done that by now, Arinna.

I think the promo was also a sick joke played on us by Showtime to make us suffer during the Lent fasting before season 3 finally begins after Easter. They teased us with C/L so they'd better deliver this year. Holliday Grainger doesn't get naked for nothing!

Hey, Seriu! I haven't read The Family yet, but at least Mario Puzo did play up the Cesare/Lucrezia love story. But from all the negative feedback I'm seeing I did expect a better novel from the writer of The Godfather.

Seriu

Hi Alex
The family just wasn't that great, but like I said, he didn't finish the book. He worked on it for years and years while writing other stuff, but he died and then his girlfriend hammered in a couple of nails and got it published.

PhoenixRising

Yeah, I heard that his girlfriend finished the book for him. I think the problem was that Puzo didn't have a producer like Robert Evans standing over his shoulder pushing him to complete the novel the way he did with The Godfather back in the 1960's. There wasn't much of a demand for a movie about The Borgias back in the 80's and early 90's. Maybe if there was the book would have been better.

Seriu

So what someone needs to do is write a really good novel-length fanfiction about The Borgias. Anyone?

PhoenixRising

You have to talk to Arinna about that.

NYPoster

In regards to Borgia, I bought the DVD because of the clip with C/L kissing, while I do agree that they did not develop C/L at ALL in that series I actually ended up liking it in the end as it's own show. It was weird watching it in the beginning because Cesare was just SOOO different and whiny, I didn't really like Guila, the accents were all over the place and the gratuitous violence was ridiculous. I almost stopped but a few episodes in I started liking it. Chemistry wise no one touches Holliday/Francois NO ONE, they do scream SEXXX in their scenes LOL AND their story has been so well developed but Mark/Isolda barely had any screen time together so I am curious to see how it develops in S2. I see Borgia as a totally different entity from SHO Borgias and I had to stop comparing the two because no one will win against Francois/Holliday LOL. I also bought "Los Borgias" and I really liked C/L portrayal in that movie, but it was weird seeing everything happen over the course of two hours. So if I were to rank them

C/L (SHO)>>>>C/L(Los Borgias)>>>>C/L(Borgia)

I will say though that outside of Cesare/Lucrezia I thought Borgia did a better job developing a story for the other characters --> Runs to hide in a corner

While I found Lucrezia whiny in Borgia, I liked that they made her stronger at the end of the series, she stood up to Juan when he threatened her, intervened when she realized Juan was physically abusing his pregnant wife among other things. Also as much as I disliked Guila in Borgia she was kinda badass.

PhoenixRising

No, no, I'll agree with you on that one, Renae. Borgia did do a better job at developing the other characters. The Borgias definitley did seem to focus on Cesare & Lucrezia as well as the rivalry between Rodrigo and Della Rovere.
I do like the fact that The Borgias did develop King Charles of France better, as well as delving into the goings on of the other cities, including Milan, Naples, and Florence. Borgia only spoke of those events happening offscreen, wheras The Borgias showed you a lot more of the surrounding events, and had great battle sequences.
The Showtime series is much more cinematic. But I would have preferred more development of the characters the way they did on Borgia. I guess one show had more of one and the other show had more of the other.

And I also agree that Isolda's Lucrezia did grow stronger as the show progressed, but I think The Borgias wanted to keep the family rivalry squarely between Juan and Cesare.

DGSAFDMD

Completely agree. I know people enjoy Borgia more because it's more historically accurate and also has some great acting (in really bad accents tho) but overall, I prefer The Borgias. I know it might be because it's "prettier" but that's the thing, we're watching a TV Show, I like my TV Shows visually pretty, and if they have to make me uncomfortable I want a good excuse for that. (I get extremely uncomfortable with Black Mirror and I keep on watching because it's worth it, you sometimes feel psychologically raped thanks to that show, but it makes you think a lot and it's extremely well written, has beautiful photography, great acting, etc) but with Borgia it was just violence for violence.. once again, people who complain of The Borgias should look a bit more into Borgia because all the nudity and blood in that show made me quit watching. You can disturb without visuals, you know?

I watch GOT where everyone is ****ing naked, but it compensates with everything else. Borgia in the other hand has torturing scenes that I was not able to grasp. Another show I watch had a torture scene but you didn't really see anything, they will tell you what was going to happen cut after and you'd see the result of that torture, until the very end when they were about to kill the guy. So it was disturbing and uncomfortable without visuals and was more bearable.

Trustno1

Gosh I love King Charles. He`s all kinds of awesome!

I think the Borgias is more of a story with death betrayal and love and lust in that it`s pbly inaccurate and too contemporary but I don`t really care I think it makes for a better story.

I really hate the Rodrigo, Lucrezia angles'

I can make do with same age incest because I assume there`s no compulsion. It is accepted for people who ignored their family link but p«rent, child incest is wayyyyyy too creepy to be romanticized.

Seriu

Fortunately I had never read or watched anything about the Borgias before the show came out, unlike the Tudors where I was all too aware of any historical inaccuracies (still a great show though). Or Game of Thrones where any deviation from the books bother me. So I can really just be in it for the story and not worry about it being true.

And when it comes to R/L incest...ugh. In fiction, I'm okay with sibling incest because it happens on a more equal footing, plus forbidden love = hot. But to have a kid and then raise it and then have sex with it...creepy on so many levels. Even when parent/child are consenting adults, it seems like pedophilia.

DGSAFDMD

I completely agree. I am whiling to give Borgia another chance, I'll just forward the unnecessary violence and Cesare's self harm because I found that SUPER annoying.

I like the cast though, they look like a lovely bunch of actors (mostly Mark and the guy who plays Juan)

And yes, in re: to C/L I give the second place to Los Borgia, I shipped them very much, if I didn't know better, I'd think NJ based The Borgias CL relationship in that one a bit.

PhoenixRising

That's why the majority of 'cesty 'ships are between siblings, Seriu. I think the trend started with Flowers In The Attic's Chris/Cathy back in the 80's, and now it's all over the place with Arthur/Morgana, Cesare/Lucrezia, Jaime/Cersei, etc.