PhoenixRising

Which time, Arinna? The first time or the second time?

Yes, but Cesare wasn't expecting that. He was sleeping naked but not prepared for Lucrezia to sneak into his bed. I still think he was a bit frazzled by Caterina telling him he could "sink his steel" into her(I love her innuendo. ) and Lucrezia caught him off guard. So I think Lu might have Caterina to thank for Cesare being turned on. But I remember that the second time that Lu snuck into Ces' bed he was clothed.

Mignonette

He was naked both times, Alex. He was covered only by a blanket. And he definitely wasn't turned on by Caterina's steel innuendo - I think you're projecting a bit there, Alex . He was furious with Caterina for showing up at Lu's wedding after trying to kill her! He grabbed her breasts hard, sarcastically spitting out, "my lady", with a very angry murderous look on his face, to let her know that he could do whatever he wanted to her - including hurting her badly. He was merely proving a point about his power over her. I think it was also a nod by the writers alluding to the historical account of him raping her when she was captured and held by him.

By this point, he despised Caterina. He'd only went to Forli the first time to try to seduce her into bowing to the pope. It wasn't out of desire for her. But he was very young and she knew if she made him lust for her, it would be easy to seduce him. There was no tenderness between them. He wanted to leave immediately after breakfast, but she forced him to stay and when he protested that second night, not wanting to sleep with her again, she grabbed his ****. He was what 20? That's all it takes for a guy that age She knew that - she was 12 years a older than him. She'd been around Ces was very smart and knew she'd used her sexuality to turn the tables on him, and he was wise enough not to let that happen again. So no, her games at Lu's wedding didn't work on him any longer - in fact, they just pissed him off. It was only Lu who turned him on by then. He'd just kissed her passionately and was on her bed about to have sex with her just a couple of days before, so it didn't take much to send him over the edge when she showed up in his bedroom that night

PhoenixRising

Was he naked both times, Lila? I thought he had a shirt on when Lucrezia snuck into his bed the second time. I know she was wearing a nightgown.

Well, then Ces was just frazzled by Caterina. Sure, he was also furious with her, but you could tell that Cesare had a lot on his mind, which is why when Lucrezia went up to him to dance, he shook her off, remember? She was surprised that he refused, but it happened right after that scene with Caterina. I guess Ces really needed something to ease the tension and Lu had just what he needed.

Well, I don't think that they alluded to Cesare raping Caterina in that scene. I think that was later on when he had invaded Forli and had Caterina in her bedroom. Prior to that it always seemed playful and full of innuendo between them. But yeah, I think by this time Cesare was clearly antagonistic towards Caterina. He had slept with her in season 2, but by season 3 she was a clear threat to not only his family, but to Lucrezia, so I'm sure he wasn't thinking about having sex with Caterina again by then. And yes, Cesare was in his early 20s and Caterina was... older. Maybe 12 years older. But yes, I think Lucrezia was more like salvation for Cesare, someone he could turn to so he could shut out the rest of the world, and I think he was like that for her as well. All that heavy kissing is what eventually led up to their having sex.

Mignonette

By alluding to the rape, I'm talking about Ces sexually assaulting Caterina when she tried to seduce him again with her steel innuendo at Lu's wedding. She underestimated him, because he'd been so easy to seduce at 20. But he was older now and wise to her tricks, so not only was he NOT amused, he was furious at her audacity 1.) for coming to Lu's wedding and 2.) for thinking he was foolish enough to let her lead him around by his **** again - after trying to kill his beloved sister! When Cat made her steel comment, Ces looked super pissed, glanced around to see if anyone was watching, and then slammed Cat up against the wall and grabbed her breasts hard - that's the sexual assault (alluding to the him raping her IRL. NJ peppered the series with nods to historical record). Grabbing a woman's breasts in anger is sexual assault and is very threatening, a warning that he can and may rape her, if he wishes. She'd said, "you can sink your steel into me, to the hilt, if you wish". His answer was to assault her which meant, "and I can hurt you, even rape you, if I wish!". That was what I meant.

Here's some pics of that scene. See his hand grabbing her breasts in the first pic? Look at his face - he is NOT amused by her games




Do you mean this shirt, Alex? Where Lu strokes his hand that's lying right on top of his ****?



Or this shirt where her hand hesitates seeming to want to go under his blanket?



Or this shirt where her hand definitely hesitates lingering at that spot?



And speaking of that scene, I don't get why Lu pulled away from him. As you can see from these pics that are in order, he was ready to kiss her after the "everything" comments. Look at him: his lips are parted, he's looking at her mouth, and turned to her. The man sucked her finger for god's sake - he wanted her! And then boom! SHE pulls away by saying, "come visit soon". He's hurt - look at him turn away from her and sigh when she pulls out of his embrace. Look at him try to contain his emotions when he closes his eyes, and then as he sadly watches her climb out of his bed and walk away. His hand is still open and held out to her. She leaves him, why? Why was she always telling him she loved her husband? Even in the fireworks scene, he was so honest with her after she told him she loved her husband and asked if he loved his wife. He said love was not an issue between him and Charlotte, because, "there is none other like you". And yet, she kept hurting him with her "I love my husband" bs! I don't get it And that whole, "you've spent a lifetime pulling away from me" thing she said in her confession? Yes, he pulled away sometimes, but not always - he bought her a palace where they could be alone together "away from prying eyes", for example. Were the writers pulling a Joffre when they forgot about that? A Joffre is now an official thing











And...he's clearly naked under that blanket, Alex It's ok that you didn't notice - us women did

BL.Arinna_1982

I actually thought that if this was a HBO show, her hand would definitely go under the blanket.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Lila!

Okay, now I see it. Thanks for posting all those pics. Yeah, Ces was getting rough with Caterina, but she never seemed like she didn't like what he was doing, so I guessed that this was just more of the same stuff between the two, like when he held a knife on her back in season 2. But yeah, I think by season 3 he'd had quite enough of her games.

Okay, now I see he wasn't wearing anything in bed. Yeah, I don't know why Lu felt she needed to leave him at that moment either. It's not like anyone was gonna walk in on them, or like Alfonso was gonna wake up and go looking for her if he was passed out drunk most of the time.

Yeah, I think we've mentioned several times that Lucrezia's behavior in the finale episode was contradictory in many scenes. She was inconsistent and all over the place, and I was like, WTF? Yeah, the Joffre analogy is a good one. The writers pretending like they forgot what they previously wrote, which is frustrating.


I think you're right, Arinna. If this were HBO they'd probably take things much further.

Mignonette

You're welcome, Alex - a picture usually tells a story better than words.

Yeah, I agree with you & Arinna about HBO. HBO is fearless.

Well Ces held the knife on her in season 2 cause Rodrigo had warned him that she was dangerous, and she'd snuck up on him in his room and scared the **** out of him! She was the one who turned him holding a knife on her into a sex game thing. The woman was a crazy bitch and I would've protected myself, too, if I were him. Caterina didn't mind Ces grabbing her breasts, cause she liked rough treatment, remember when they had sex and she said she was a aberration among women and he said he'd handle her rough then? So yeah, she liked it, but this time at Lu's wedding, he wasn't playing rough - he was making a real threat. In "The Family", Puzo has Ces raping Cat and she loves it, which confounds him. This was a nod by Puzo to the historical fact of when Ces took Cat prisoner, he kept her in his private rooms for several weeks and servants heard them having sex. No one knew if he was raping her or if she was enjoying it. My opinion after researching is that he probably did rape her initially, because she'd just seduced him with her feminine charms into a trap to kill him. He was furious and probably took it out on her by turning the tables and raping her. But the fact that he kept her in his rooms for several weeks before taking her to the Castel St. Angelo and she never complained about him, makes me think she enjoyed having sex with him

The scene with Lu and Ces was so ambiguous. Was it morning or night? Had she slept with him and it was the morning after? He didn't seem surprised to find her in his bed once he'd woken up all the way - he started kissing her neck. And when she left, both of them kept looking back at each other like they didn't want to be separated.

The scandal scene that took place in Rome in the courtyard at the palace he got her was also ambiguous. Did they have sex then or not? I believe they did resume their affair when he returned from France, because he did and said certain things that were big hints to the audience. I also said wtf? lots of times with Lu's contradictory behavior. She couldn't live without him and yet, when he was with her, she pulled away and then blamed him

BL.Arinna_1982

I'd like to think that they did it though.

PhoenixRising

Well, I don't know if HBO is fearless, but they're certainly naughty.

Yeah, I remember the knife scene, and even that was full of innuendo. "How dare you bring your dagger into a lady's chamber!" Yeah, and he brought that dagger into her chamber, alright... several times throughout the night. Yes, it's clear that Caterina liked the rough stuff with Cesare because she was attracted to him. She felt she was an aberration among women because she was so different from the other women of her time, more like a modern woman of the 20th century. Not the 21st century, because people in this century are bat-s crazy, but that's another discussion.

OMG, The Family has a scene were Ces was raping Caterina? I had no idea. Yeah, why am I not surprised she was into that? I did hear something about what Ces may have done to her, but I never knew how much of it was accurate. But I'm sure they both had fun.

I think the scene with Ces and Lu was in the morning, because Ces was shown waking up. He was still nursing injuries from that explosion that he narrowly walked away from. Yeah, I really wished that had been a morning after scene. I don't think that Cesare would've minded if she had crawled into bed with him during the night.

Oh, the scandal scene during the fireworks? Yeah, I'm still not entirely sure about the timeline with that one. I'd like to think that something had happened, but I'm still trying to figure out how he got there after being in Rome.

Mignonette

I always thought the fireworks scene took place in Naples, but maybe they were in Rome. I assumed it was Naples, because they are openly walking around arm-in-arm and acting like lovers. It could've even been some small village where they went to spend time together, idk.

The fireworks scene was certainly scandalous, but that's not THE scandal scene to which I'm always referring. The scandal scene takes place in Rome at the palace Ces got for her when she escaped from Naples. It's this one here, and notice Ces doesn't say the palace is yours and Alf's - it's only for HER, cause Ces knows he's going to get rid of Alf. He got the palace for Lu so that they could have a place to be alone together in secret. He made the decision to kill Alf and take Lu after he rode to Naples to rescue her. The terrible fear of her being killed, broke his resistance and that's when he developed his plan. How do I know his intentions? Because the night Ces brought her back from Naples to Rome, he had this conversation with Orsini which boils down to him wanting to spend time alone with Lu without worrying about Alf surprising them. He wanted to know when she was at the palace and alone. And omg, look at Orsini's face - he's just witnessed Ces running to Lu and her jumping from her carriage into his arms with the two of them kissing - in front of Alf and Ces' men. Orsini knows what's up.




He takes Lu (alone without Alf) to the palace he's gotten for her.



She asks "why here" as she's looking upstairs where the bedrooms are located (great blocking by the director). Look at his answer - his intentions are clear:





He tells her that he won't have her safety compromised and when she asks "and my husband?", Ces says in a deadpan voice, "what of him?"




She realizes Alf is doomed. He is Ces' prisoner until the time is right to get rid of him. And Lu doesn't care! She smiles and teases Ces about it. Her ONLY concern is if Alf sees something and tells someone, causing a scandal.









Notice that Lu is the one who brings up the concern about scandal, not Ces. He's light-hearted about it, teasing with, "where's the scandal?". That's because he's already got a plan in place, but Lu doesn't know that.




Smoldering looks and then with a mischievous smile at him, she grabs his hand and drags him off. I believe they went to the bedroom, cause he follows her and look at his face - a mixture of lust and seriousness, cause he knows what's at stake, and he must always protect her.

BL.Arinna_1982

Season 3 Cesare just slays.

Mignonette

Yes, he does slay, in every way: with his enemies and with Lu

PhoenixRising

Ohhh, that's right! That's the scandal scene! Thanks, Lila. And thanks for all the visual aids. I got that scene confused with the fireworks scene, and yes, I do believe that fireworks scene was in Naples, which is why I wondered how the hell Cesare got there so fast.

Ahhh, yep. Cesare is basically doing for Lu what Rodrigo did for Giulia, giving her a place of her own that he can easily access. I wonder what it could possibly be for? Yep, I do think Orsini suspected what was going on, and he certainly knew that Alfonso's time was short. So you think that something was going on even then? Damn, why does it always have to be offscreen? I wanna know for sure!

Mignonette

Your welcome My photo library of Ces & Lu is vast It's very interesting that I only discovered things between them in the subtexts once I started collecting photos. Lots of things are missed watching the video. It's only when things are slowed down, as in a series of stills, that the audience gets to see what was really happening. It was actually brilliant writing if the goal is to keep the audience guessing. AND frustrated - which was how Ces & Lu must have felt.

Yeah, I tend to think the fireworks scene was in Naples, because they weren't very discreet out in public, were they? Ces couldn't wait to see her after his return from France. I'm sure he rode hard - alone - for the 2 day journey from Rome to Naples. After all, IRL, he did that twice, riding hard for 2 days, by himself, leaving his troops, to see Lu in Ferrara.

Orsini had to know what was going on after witnessing that carriage scene PDA He was in charge of enabling Ces to see Lu privately at the palace that he got for her. And yeah, it was exactly like what Rodrigo did so he could secretly bed Guilia

I agree! The ambiguity and insinuations of things happening offscreen was so frustrating - why couldn't they make things explicit with Ces & Lu like with every other sex scene in the series? Damn it

There is the possibility that the writers were planning on a fourth season where everything would've been made explicit and the audience could've looked back through season 3 and put 2+ 2 together with lots of AHA! moments. I write professionally and that's exactly what I would've done to capture and maintain audience interest

PhoenixRising

Hi, Lila! Yes, you do have a very extensive photo library of them.


Yeah, the stills do show a lot of subtext that can get lost when watching the episodes if you're not paying close enough attention. And yes, I do think that fireworks scene was in Naples(correct about the lack of discretion), but again, I have no idea how he got there so fast. Two days?

Oh, I think everyone saw that carriage scene and suspected something. Colonna was there as well, as was Alfonso. And of course Cesare learned from what his father did with Giulia. I didn't get that right away when I first saw the episode, but it came to me later on. I agree, I wanted another, more explicit sex scene, which is why I wished that the other bedroom scene had been a morning after scene and not just Lu creeping into Ces' bedroom. Maybe they were planning something for season 4? I don't know. But after hearing about Apocalypse, I'm beginning to doubt that Jordan was going to do that.