BL.Arinna_1982

I agree he was a worrier in his heart and not a lover per se, but I'd like to believe that he lived after all.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Lila!

Yep, Ces was the one who came up with that whole idea about the two of them running away to a remote fishing village and changing their names. I wonder if he was just kidding, or if some part of him would've liked that? And I wonder what she was thinking when she heard it? Was she taking it as a joke, or do you think some part of her would've liked that as well. That's a good theory about his hunger for power being the result of his unrequited desire for his sister. And even after he finally had her, the fact that their union could only happen that one time, or the fact that if they did do it again it would have to be in secret and would be highly risky, may have influenced his choices afterwards. You're also right in that his feeling powerless was also a factor, and I think it was for Lucrezia as well. They both felt powerless over the course of the first two seasons, and by season three they were finally rebelling against that.

Perhaps instead of living in a quiet fishing village, they could own a fishing fleet? So then they could at least live well.


You want to believe that Cesare lived after his reported death, Arinna?

Mignonette

He wasn't kidding. He only made it seem like he might be kidding in case she was turned off at the idea. He could then say, "I was just kidding, sis".

And she asked the question that way on purpose to see how he would respond to it. Look at the circumstances of when she asked him, "will you marry me?": lying in her bed with him, his head lying across her groin, and holding hands with him.

When Lu says she meant marry her to Alfonso, Ces puts his lips to her hand, and with a very sad face, says, "yes, I know". He lets her hand go and lies back across her lap, gathering his thoughts for a moment. Without looking at her, he takes a deep breath, plays with her hand, and says quietly, "do you love him?". He fears her answer might be yes, but he can't stop himself from asking. He did the the same with Paolo.

Lu answers that perhaps she can grow to love Alfonso, because "he's good". Ces looks devastated for a moment, but composes his face, and says sadly, "so you have a good man at last". He avoids looking at her through this, because he knows she can read him. He's just killed their brother - he's a bad man in his own eyes, unworthy of Lu.

Yes, a fleet of fishing boats would provide a good income. They would be like and have a bunch of kids, so would need lots of money!

Did you mean "warrior" and "loved", Arinna? IRL, he definitely loved Lu, because she kept his letters and he writes that he loves her. They are preserved in Rome. Machieavelli wrote about Ces's love for Lu and he believed they were incestous.

Yes, he was a warrior in his heart. But he wasn't born that way, so when did that start and why?

My theory is as I stated: his powerlessness over Lu drove his need for power and conquest. His father's desire for power pushed Cesar even further in that direction. Rodrigo sought power in order to protect his family. Cesar sought power in his teen years primarily to counter the powerlessness over Lu, but as time went on, he knew his father was right - the family had many enemies and by increasing their power holds in Italy, the family would be safer. IRL and on the show, Cesar's number one priority was ALWAYS Lu's safety. Not his father's, not even his own, but HERS. But noooooo, they weren't incestous, cause a man always puts his sister first...alrighty...

PhoenixRising

Hi, Lila!

Oh, I know he wasn't kidding. But he probably still knew there was no way it could realistically happen for them. I don't think Cesare ever foresaw that they'd actually end up making love. Oh, so you think that even when she was planning her wedding to Alfonso, she wanted to see what Cesare's reaction would be if she asked him, "will you marry me?" Oh, the two of them lying in bed together was just all kinds of wrong in all the right ways. And you're right, he did ask her the same thing with Alfonso as he did with Paolo, but I think he knew that it was different with Alfonso and that she was hoping that she could grow to love him, but that she wasn't really. Although I think that Cesare was being presumptuous by thinking that he was unworthy of Lucrezia because he killed Juan. Remember, she tried to kill him herself, but got his mistress instead.

OMG! Yeah, that would be a good way to pass the time while they were managing their fishing business.

Mignonette

Yeah, I was going to mention how Ces chose not to see the bad in Lu, like when she tried to kill Juan, but I didn't want to make my post super-long. Ces needed to see her as good and innocent in order to keep from acting on his lust for her, so he deluded himself into denying her badness.

Ces was definitely blindsided by Lu's seduction of him. I agree that he never imagined he'd get a chance to make love to her, much less run away with her! Or that they'd kill little Alfonso and make love on the bed next to his dead body

PhoenixRising

That's okay, Lila. We're used to super long posts here.

I think that Ces saw her as he wanted to see her. He never knew about Lucrezia and the chandelier incident with Juan. I think he'd have been impressed. He quickly realized how lethal she could be when she poisoned Alfonso. "A professional."

Are you sure they made love next to Alfonso's dead body? The ending cut away before we got to see anything other than Ces kissing her neck and Lu closing her eyes in ecstasy. I still think he'd have carried her to his bed.

Mignonette

I think Ces knew, because he's the one who ran in and lifted the chandelier off the women. And then the later scene when he, Lu, Juan, and Vanozza were together and Juan toasted to Vanozza, Lu was taunting Juan after he asked her if she had any "burning" issues with him and she said, "No, but I might just drop in on you sometime", and Ces laughed.

The reason I believe they made love next to Alfonso's body is that Ces didn't stop after kissing her neck. He moved down toward her breasts and his head was out of camera range (where her breasts were) as she lifted up towards him - like she was lifting her breasts to his mouth. That's when the scene cut. So by implication, it looked like they were about to make love next to the body.

From the storytelling standpoint, this was very powerful, because it showed just how far they both had fallen. Their first scene was youthful innocence, but heavily shaded with incestuous desire. Their last scene, in stark contrast, was them guilty as sin, about to have sex next to the bloody body of her dead husband.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Lila!

Wait, was Ces there when the chandelier fell? I think he may have been there later, and was the woman with Juan still alive? I can't remember. Oh, I remember the toasting of Vanozza and all of the children present. Oh yea, the "drop in on you" line! I think Cesare did suspect her, and if so then he should know that they were perfectly suited for each other.

Yeah, Ces kept kissing her, but he also said that he wanted her "clean and bloodless" again, so I'd think that he would've eventually carried her away from the bed. But who knows? Still, making love to each other next to her dead husband's body seems a bit gross even for those two. But you are right that it did show just how far the both of them had fallen from that first scene with the two of them lying next to each other on the grass back in the first episode of season 1.

BL.Arinna_1982

He went there after Lucrezia was already out.

PhoenixRising

Thanks, Arinna.

BL.Arinna_1982

You are welcome.

Mignonette

Arinna is correct, Ces came running in when he heard the cries for help and lifted the chandelier off of the woman, who was alive, but hurt very badly. Lucrezia had left the room before the candle burned completely through the rope holding the chandelier. But she either told Ces what she'd done or he figured it out, cause he smiled and looked at her when she made that "dropping in" comment to Juan. It was obviously an inside joke of which Ces was aware.

Yeah, Alex, I think Ces would've carried Lu away somewhere else to make love. But they definitely did do it right after that final scene. Yes, he told her she would be clean and bloodless again, but the first thing he'd said was, "You'll be naked.", remember? She'd said, "I'll never wash away this blood" and Ces said, "Then I must." He knew he'd instigated Alf's death and didn't want Lu to remain feeling "bloodied". But his intention was deeper than that: he wanted to take her, take her for himself, which was what he'd wanted all along.

That's why the first thing he said was, "You'll be naked." He paused as he started cleaning her and added, "And clean and bloodless again", another pause, and then, "Mine". The naked line was to let Lu and us know what he intended, and the final "Mine" let her and us know that he wasn't just talking about getting her naked and having sex - he was finally claiming as his woman.

I agree with you that Ces would've carried her off to bed away from that room, cause his love for her was pure , but showing him about to ravish her and her raising up to his mouth kissing her neck and moving down towards her breasts, next to Alf's body was making the statement about their loss of innocence.

Alex, I love how you mentioned that their first scene was on the grass - nowhere near a bed - BUT every other intimate scene between them thereafter WAS on a bed - did you notice? I must add that in their first scene, he was wearing his clerical robe - a sign of celibacy (even though he'd just boinked that woman ) - it made the statement that although there was definitely mutual incestuous desire, he was celibate with Lu. That juxtaposed to their final scene on the bloody bed next to her dead husband showed how far they'd fallen.

PhoenixRising

OMG, I remember that. I was afraid that the woman was dead. I didn't think she deserved to have that happen to her because of Lucrezia's revenge. But yeah, now I remember that scene, Lila.

Oh, I'm sure that Ces and Lu made love after Alfonso died. But I'd prefer that they did it away from all that blood because that's just... icky. Yes, Ces did want to take her for himself, but he also wanted her clean, so that's why I think he'd carry her away first... and then take her. And of course she'd be naked because it's easier that way. Yeah, having her naked can also be seen as him taking her as "his" woman, officially.

Yeah, good point about their first scene being on grass, but every other scene was on a bed. I did notice, I just didn't think much of it at the time. That first scene on the grass was all innocent, but each scene that followed just led them closer and closer towards their incestuous debauchery.

Mignonette

Whatever do you mean, Alex? Ces was really into naked. When Lu went to his bedroom on her wedding night, he was naked asleep in his bed. It definitely made it easier for her assess his interest in letting her seduce him (not actually "thumbs" up )

BL.Arinna_1982

When Lucrezia sneaked into his bedroom, he was surprised but then he acted as if they are doing it on a nightly basis.