[stlavin95]

Originally Posted by MistyMountainHop (View Post) I'd say one could dream, but one can't since That '90s Show is actually happening, and we'll learn whether or not S8 is ignored, disavowed, or treated as canon.

Definitely know what option I want, lol

[Alexa]

Spoiler:

Jackie and Kelso reconciled, got married, divorced, then got remarried -- and have a son who's going to be part of the show. If this is true, I'm not surprised. I've been saying for years that if T7S ever had a reunion movie or continuation of some kind, Jackie and Kelso would be paired since their portrayers are married -- which, of course, makes total sense because what real-life people do is exactly what fictional characters they happen to play would do ..

That sounds HORRENDOUS!!!

I would take that over Jackie/Fez though cuz at least K/J had a thing numerous times in the show. With that said, its very obvious they are only doing it cuz of real life, I agree.

If they arent in the show much and its focusing more on the kids then maybe I wont let it bother me too much but still, annoying.

To Jackie's mind, her feelings for Kelso are platonic, so I don't blame her for giving him verbal support and comfort. But, yeah, being physically (not sexually) comforting -- beyond a simple hug -- understandably confuses Hyde. But he should have -- and would have -- confronted Jackie directly about it. He wouldn't have slunk off like a passive-aggressive coward and broken up with Jackie by sleeping with someone else.

Oh yes, I definitely agree with this. And Im not saying Hyde cheating was justified, but I understand where he was coming from. I also agree it wasnt cheating in the same sense. I mean, ive done the exact same thing before. When I was "dating" a guy and he told me he didnt want things to be serious I hooked up with someone else mostly out of spite... lol.



523

Poor Jackie. This sucks for her. I do love that she is growing and that she broke up with Hyde for cheating because she continuously gave Kelso so many chances. And she deserves better than that, so I do like that she stood up for herself. I know Hyde's reasoning but he still went too far and I don't think they should be together right now. IMO Hyde needs to make bigger amends.

Kelso is such an ass telling Hyde hes going after Jackie again, bro LET IT GO.


524

Watching Kelso and Hyde argue abut Jackie was annoying because like, its her decision and she already said she didnt want either of you?

Kitty cursing at Red was so funny.

I liked that Jackie went to check on Hyde cuz she was worried for him. So cute.


525

This was a fun episode. Eric finding Laurie naked in the woods LMAO.

God, Im over Kelso and this Kelso/Jackie trainwreck. Jackie being "torn" is ridic.

But Im glad she chose herself over either of them after their dumb games. I loved Jackies "If I could run into my own arms I would." quote lol.

I also like Donna telling her to pick Hyde. lol.

Fez and Laurie oh boy.

[MistyMountainHop]

Originally Posted by Alexa (View Post) Spoiler: That sounds HORRENDOUS!!! I would take that over Jackie/Fez though cuz at least K/J had a thing numerous times in the show. With that said, its very obvious they are only doing it cuz of real life, I agree. If they arent in the show much and its focusing more on the kids then maybe I wont let it bother me too much but still, annoying.

Spoiler:

It signals That '90s Show is most definitely an AU, not canon. Just like season 8 of T7S is an AU. AU versions of shows can work. The reboot of Will & Grace is consciously an AU of the original -- or states the original series finale was the AU, depending on one's POV (the show's creators, for instance) -- and I like both versions. They're both equally valid and in-character, imo. But what S8 of T7S did and what T9S is going to do -- not in-character at all.

Originally Posted by Alexa (View Post) Oh yes, I definitely agree with this. And Im not saying Hyde cheating was justified, but I understand where he was coming from. I also agree it wasnt cheating in the same sense. I mean, ive done the exact same thing before. When I was "dating" a guy and he told me he didnt want things to be serious I hooked up with someone else mostly out of spite... lol.

Spite is a good word for it. It's only part of the greater whole of what drives Hyde to sleep with someone else, but it's still part of it.

Originally Posted by Alexa (View Post) IMO Hyde needs to make bigger amends.

Man, did he need to do that. I've written a meta/essay or two on that subject (as well as changed his behavior and attitude in Those '70s Comics to reflect the in-character self-awareness he'd have of how badly he'd transgressed against Jackie and to make her feelings primary, not his own.

Originally Posted by Alexa (View Post) Watching Kelso and Hyde argue abut Jackie was annoying because like, its her decision and she already said she didnt want either of you?

Exactly, It's her decision, not theirs.

Originally Posted by Alexa (View Post) I liked that Jackie went to check on Hyde cuz she was worried for him. So cute.

Because Jackie didn't loving Hyde because of what he did. She feels betrayed by him. He broke her trust.

Originally Posted by Alexa (View Post) This was a fun episode. Eric finding Laurie naked in the woods LMAO.

The episode focuses on Eric's trauma from that and not Laurie's at her brother seeing her naked. Except for her initial shock, we don't know how she feels about it. Would've liked to get a bit more on that, but the episode wasn't interested in that for her storyline (since the punchline is about Eric's reaction).

Originally Posted by Alexa (View Post) God, Im over Kelso and this Kelso/Jackie trainwreck. Jackie being "torn" is ridic.

Jackie truly isn't torn between Hyde and Kelso, though. It took me a long time to realize that. She's torn between reconciling with Hyde and not reconciling with Hyde. She's not in love with Kelso anymore, and her dialogue in that "who do I choose?" scene shows it. She believes Hyde doesn't "need" her, that he'd be okay if they weren't together (despite his words and actions proving the contrary). It boils down to her asking herself if she can ever trust Hyde again -- and trust him to love her enough never to hurt her the way he did again.

Originally Posted by Alexa (View Post) But Im glad she chose herself over either of them after their dumb games. I loved Jackies "If I could run into my own arms I would." quote lol.

That is very Jackie, and I really wish the show had done more with that in season 6.

[stlavin95]

Originally Posted by MistyMountainHop (View Post) Man, did he need to do that. I've written a meta/essay or two on that subject (as well as changed his behavior and attitude in Those '70s Comics to reflect the in-character self-awareness he'd have of how badly he'd transgressed against Jackie and to make her feelings primary, not his own.

Where's the essay you wrote? Would love to read it sometime

[MistyMountainHop]

Originally Posted by stlavin95 (View Post) Where's the essay you wrote? Would love to read it sometime

Hi, Sam! Check these out:

• Hyde’s First On-Screen, “I Love You,” to Jackie Is an Unconsciously Selfish, Manipulative Act (But It Didn’t Have to Be)
• More On Hyde's First and Only On-Screen, "I Love You," to Jackie, and the Probably Reason Why He Was Never Written to Say It to Her Again
• How Jackie's First, "I Love You," to Hyde Differs from Hyde's First, "I Love You," to Jackie
• What Was the Deeper Cause of Hyde's Depression After Jackie Dumps Him in Season 5, and What I Think Real!Hyde Would Have Done After Sleeping with the Nurse

[stlavin95]

Originally Posted by MistyMountainHop (View Post) Hi, Sam! Check these out: Hyde’s First On-Screen, “I Love You,” to Jackie Is an Unconsciously Selfish, Manipulative Act (But It Didn’t Have to Be) More On Hyde's First and Only On-Screen, "I Love You," to Jackie, and the Probably Reason Why He Was Never Written to Say It to Her Again How Jackie's First, "I Love You," to Hyde Differs from Hyde's First, "I Love You," to Jackie What Was the Deeper Cause of Hyde's Depression After Jackie Dumps Him in Season 5, and What I Think Real!Hyde Would Have Done After Sleeping with the Nurse

Thanks for that

[MistyMountainHop]

Originally Posted by stlavin95 (View Post) Thanks for that

[stlavin95]

Still need to check them out, lol

[MistyMountainHop]

Originally Posted by stlavin95 (View Post) Still need to check them out, lol

Whenever, if ever.

[MistyMountainHop]

Bringing this conversation over from The Zenmasters Thread.

Originally Posted by einsteinsugly (View Post) (unless it's incest or pedophilia, then I have a problem), etc.

Squick fic is just no.

Originally Posted by einsteinsugly (View Post) idealizing the past is inherently harmful. One needs to learn from history, so we don't repeat it.

I totally agree.

Originally Posted by einsteinsugly (View Post) Since I can't, in terms of T7S, I have a strong feeling Jackie, Kelso, and Red wouldn't be very accepting of LGBTQ+ people (to differing degrees, and in different ways).

Canon!Red is depicted consistently as homophobic until S8 -- which, of course, has to be the non-canon season of T7S.

Canon!Jackie expresses homophobia, too, at least toward lesbians.

Canon!Kelso, on the other hand, does experience gay panic about himself in one episode (for "the laughs"), but I'm wouldn't go so far as to say he's super homophobic. Not enough proof. He expresses to Jackie his love for Fez and is pained because he can't return what he believes, at that point, are Fez's romantic feelings for him and doesn't want to hurt Fez. His love for his friend ultimately overcomes any homophobia he might have. It's clear he'll always consider Fez his best friend, regardless of Fez's sexual orientation.

Kelso's ego, though, is such that he can't understand why any woman wouldn't be attracted to him unless she's a lesbian or a robot. While I think he would make homophobic jokes about butch women, I also think he wouldn't allow a woman's sexual orientation to dictate whether or not he's friends with them. Once he likes a person friend-wise, they're friends.

Originally Posted by einsteinsugly (View Post) Hyde and Donna would be pretty chill about it, but would still recognize the bumps in the road ahead.

Canon!Hyde would make jokes because that's his way (he makes jokes about everyone and everything), but I don't think he'd give a crap about who loves whom as long as they're happy. Canon!Donna definitely is in the love is love camp.

Originally Posted by einsteinsugly (View Post) Eric and Fez would roughly fall under Hyde and Donna camp, but would be a bit more drawn out and dramatic about it.

After canon!Eric's experience with Buddy, and combining that with his attitude in "That '70s Pilot" (1x01), I think Eric generally isn't homophobic. Unfortunately, he does have that whole X is the definition of a man issue and, "Do I fall into it?" which complicates matters for him. For example, when Red calls Luke gay in a disparaging way, Eric objects and is upset about it.

Canon!Fez's attitude about homosexuality (and bisexuality) is probably complicated. In his culture, men showing and expressing love and appreciation for each other isn't taboo. Male friends hold hands, compliment each other's physical appearances, say, "I love you," and all this isn't in a romantic context but a platonic yet intimate one. Fez has displayed aspects of toxic masculinity, and he's clearly afraid of being gay or seen as gay -- but he doesn't see his more intimate (but still platonic) gestures of friendship to his male friends as having anything to do with that.

Originally Posted by einsteinsugly (View Post) Kitty, Bob, and Midge would be hesitant, but would ultimately embrace it.

Canon!Kitty and canon!Midge, yes. Canon!Bob, maybe not. We haven't seen evidence in either direction for Bob, but he's Catholic (not that all Catholics are homophobic by any stretch, but the era Bob would've been raised in the religion, homosexuality would've been taught as sin), and he has antiquated ideas about gender and gender roles until his relationship with Joanne.

Originally Posted by einsteinsugly (View Post) My position is not out of malice, but out of simply striving for basic accuracy, so others can understand the past (and the present). So we as a society can learn from the past (and the present). And change, for the better.

No malice detected. And I'm not saying you're doing the following, but I'm not into people dictating what people can or can't write in fanfic or how they write it -- with the exception of the aforementioned squick fic. 'Cause .

[einsteinsugly]

"Squick fic is just no."

Yep, and when characters that are so OOC that I'm like, "did you even watch the same show?" Like there's this one fic where Eric abandons Donna and his kids and finds validation of his actions with Laurie (who also abandoned a kid). I absolutely don't regret my negative review, or my rant on Tumblr. Eric can be an ass sometimes, but he would never, ever do that.

*****
To me, Red is the opposite of the fundamentalist stereotype (that is super anti-LGBTQ+ until they find out their kid is gay). Not that he's accepting, but he accepts LGBTQ+ people more when it's outside his direct sphere of influence. But within his family and close circle of friends? That's when he has more of a problem, and his homophobia really, really comes out.

Jackie is a strict adherent to the status quo during most of her childhood, and she softens when Hyde opens her eyes. But she still looks at society for guidance, and when it comes to her children, she just wants them to "fit in." And "fitting in" entails being heterosexual. Yeah, she'll definitely come around, but it'll take some time.

Kelso is more in the realm of holding certain stereotypes as fact, and being wholly (and sometimes willfully) ignorant. He sees gayness as a lack of manliness, and he's a ladies' man. And if he has any romantic feelings for Fez (I don't see that he does, but Fez is a different story), he's never going to let them show.

Hyde and Donna are pretty freaking cool about it. Eric is too, but he may give you some melodramatics at first (especially if he's shocked at said revelation). They're the shoulder to cry on, to confide with. Yeah, they know it's going to be hard, but they'll stick by you. No matter what.

I've always seen Fez as bi, even though canon!Fez wasn't intended to be (as you've aptly described). So he'll support you, but with some awkward melodramatics.

As for Bob, he has some antiquated attitudes, but he's more of a softie than Red. It'll take some time, but especially if it's his daughter, close friend, or close relative, he'll eventually come around.

*****
"I'm not into people dictating what people can or can't write in fanfic or how they write it."

I don't really dictate. Do what you want, but I have a right to critique it. Unless one is being purposely and loudly historically inaccurate (think Hamilton or Bridgerton), giving a general impression that the past was better than it actually was is a general, huge no-no for me. I respect one's desire for escapism, but as a former history minor, painting over the past and playing pretend is seldom a good thing. Without addressing the past, how can we analyze the present? And look to the future?

[MistyMountainHop]

Originally Posted by einsteinsugly (View Post) To me, Red is the opposite of the fundamentalist stereotype (that is super anti-LGBTQ+ until they find out their kid is gay). Not that he's accepting, but he accepts LGBTQ+ people more when it's outside his direct sphere of influence. But within his family and close circle of friends? That's when he has more of a problem, and his homophobia really, really comes out.

It's tough, truly, to know how Red would react if Eric or Laurie weren't straight -- or had good friends who weren't -- since the show didn't go there. T7S might've had a chance in "Eric's Buddy" (1x11) with one scene, post-kiss, but all we can do is go by Red's mildly homophobic statements. He doesn't outright say, "Homosexuality is EVILLLL!" but he uses enough homophobic slurs to insult people throughout T7S for one to infer he doesn't view homosexuality in a positive (or neutral) light.

T9S will give the writers a chance to update and explore Red's views since the cast includes (at least?) one gay friend of Leia's. I hope Red's views have grown with the times. This show is going to exist despite that I don't consider it canon. Other people will watch it without the concept canon being a thought in their head. So the writers would do well not to fall back into lazy trope-ville with Red and write him more nuanced, as he was written in S1-S4 of T7S.

Originally Posted by einsteinsugly (View Post) I've always seen Fez as bi, even though canon!Fez wasn't intended to be (as you've aptly described). So he'll support you, but with some awkward melodramatics.

As I was setting up the quotation survivor -- "Class Picture" (4x20), the flashback where Eric, Kelso, and Hyde meet Fez reaffirms that Fez comes from a culture that doesn't have the same taboos on platonic male intimacy. I believe canon-wise he can be interpreted as bi-romantic while being heterosexual. I also believe he can be interpreted as hetero-romantic and heterosexual and not having the blocks to platonic male intimacy his American-born friends are raised with.

Originally Posted by einsteinsugly (View Post) As for Bob, he has some antiquated attitudes, but he's more of a softie than Red. It'll take some time, but especially if it's his daughter, close friend, or close relative, he'll eventually come around.

Bob has the capability to grow and change past his long-held points of view. His relationship with Joanne proved that.

Originally Posted by einsteinsugly (View Post) I don't really dictate.

Which is why I wrote I'm not saying you do. I was just stating I don't like when people, in general, do that (minus squick fic because I dictate no squick fic ).

[einsteinsugly]

I think Red would accept Laurie more than Eric. He's more accepting of women thwarting stereotypical femininity, to an extent (like Jackie fixing cars) than men thwarting stereotypical masculinity. Well, in his eyes, by being gay (or bi, but honestly, but Red would still see Eric or Laurie as gay). In a very black and white way.

I'm hesitant about updating Red's views too much, to fit with today's political landscape. Yeah, updating to the '90s, but not to 2022, to appease today's audience. Like, he might be a bit more open about it, but he'd still be hesitant.

[MistyMountainHop]

Originally Posted by einsteinsugly (View Post) I think Red would accept Laurie more than Eric. He's more accepting of women thwarting stereotypical femininity, to an extent (like Jackie fixing cars) than men thwarting stereotypical masculinity. Well, in his eyes, by being gay (or bi, but honestly, but Red would still see Eric or Laurie as gay). In a very black and white way.

Not sure he'd accept Laurie more than Eric because on T7S he wants Laurie to marry a man who will take care of her. He's even more harshly judgmental of Laurie when she falls short of his expectations and doesn't live up to his fantasy version of her. Eric he basically expects to disappoint him. (And, yeah, he'd definitely be guilty of bi-erasure in the 1970s).

Originally Posted by einsteinsugly (View Post) I'm hesitant about updating Red's views too much, to fit with today's political landscape. Yeah, updating to the '90s, but not to 2022, to appease today's audience. Like, he might be a bit more open about it, but he'd still be hesitant.

Plenty of people in the '90s (depending on where one lived in the U.S.) were more open to the LGBTQ+ community than they were in the '70s. Opinions had shifted (not to the extent of today, of course, but progress was definitely made in those twenty years). Many '90s allies had attitudes similar to allies today. I do wish T9S would make E/D's daughter not straight (gay, bi, etc.) and hire LGBTQ+ writers -- which would challenge Red's views. Does he love his grandkid enough to put aside his prejudices and recognize how toxic those long-held prejudices are?

But I doubt T9S is going the depth-in-comedy route (like All in the Family did). It's probably going to be a relatively superficial show with superficial writing (though not as superficial, I hope, as some other very popular comedies of recent years or of years past. T7S started out with depth and lost it).

[einsteinsugly]

Oh, I mean marginally accept Laurie more than Eric. His views on masculinity are firmer than his views on femininity (not by much, but still), and homosexuality would be the antithesis of both. History has tended to be harsher on male/male sexual/romantic relationships in general, compared to female/female ones (see the current laws on the books in some countries, where female/female relationships have a significantly lesser punishment). So in a historical context, that's where I tend to default.

"T7S started out with depth and then lost it."

Yep, totally agree. I'm leaning for the latter for T9S (with all the info that's come out thus far), so there'll nothing more than a surface-level representation of marginalized groups. Just a checkmark on an arbitrary list, instead of loosely basing things off of stats and such, and then diving deep.

Because it would make much more sense, statistically speaking, to have an African American character rather than an Asian one (in southeastern Wisconsin [*cough* Milwaukee *cough*], the percentage of African Americans is higher than in the rest of the state, even in the '90s).