[**Carrie**]

Originally posted by UnsilentMajorty: <STRONG> They are more innaccurate than you think. That 2.1 one actually translates to less than 2 million actual Nielsen viewers physically watching the show. It's more like 1.8, 1.9 because they average it out over various areas, demographics AND they split the first half-hour and second half-hour into two different segments since WF is a one-hour drama (they do this for all one hour shows to see if those who tuned in the first half hour actually stick with the show and finish it). What p*sses me off more than what the Nielsen ratings really mean is that these same Neilesn homes are the ones forcing Reality TV crap down our throats because apparently, these same homes like that garbage and is exactly what is killing "intelligent TV" on network TV and driving it to cable. But hey, you know what? So be it. If WF continues on FX... So much the better. No compeition, more freedom to do even more outrageous storylines (and adult humor) and probably just a better fit for this kind of show than the mainstream audience it's trying to capture (which obviously loves reality crap more than thinking when they sit in front of the tube these days).</STRONG>

is there actually talk of moving it to f/x, or is that just wishful thinking?

[Bheryandcherry]

well i hope they gett better. cuz u no how studios are about ratings.

but i would suck soo much if it got taken off...cuz i love it!

Bhery

[X-6_494]

While FOX - Gail Berman & co - have always been the most aggravating execs of the mainstream networks, I'm glad WF is off the Doom Slot.
Even though they switched it to a competitive hour, where they should fit in a higher rated show, but heh.

Friday night = Immediate death, unless it pulled an X-Files...

Hoping FOX won't go with its trademark killing-new-shows-right-away-if-they're-not-neilsen-hits-by-the-premiere, and switching nights proved a flexibility I rarely see on that network - maybe they're NOT trying to kill a good show, for once.

*quietly mourns Freakylinks, Firefly, John Doe, Beyond Belief, Millenium*

And Dark Angel! Can't forget DA. Sniffles.

But CSI? Apprentice 2? Meep.

As for reality shows - They're [hopefully] realising how many have bombed lately, and how they have NO syndication value whatsoever. But, we are talking about FOX here. IMO, worst of the four. <-- bitter.

[ 04-02-2004: Message edited X-6_494 ]

[UnsilentMajorty]

Originally posted by carrie the drunken slayer: <STRONG> is there actually talk of moving it to f/x, or is that just wishful thinking?</STRONG>

There has been no official talk of that (that I am aware of)...

But it would make perfect sense in my opinion.

Everyone

It dawned on me after I wrote what I did earlier today in that WF's primary problem is that it ISN'T a mainstream type show to begin with AND the fact that since JoA is on, it's not overly "original" in its premise either (even though, technically, they are 180 degrees from one another).

This show would not have been in this situation had FOX done what they were originally supposed to last summer and that was air WF along with "The O.C." to gain audiences going into the official Fall lineup.

That's why "The O.C." is such a success as far as scheduling is concerned (I think it's an all right show as well).

Had WF premiered last summer, before The World Series like The O.C., when most of the other networks were in the middle of rerun hell... This show, I beileve, would have had a HUGE following come late October when it's "real" audience would have started catching on as well.

In addition, it would have beaten JoA out of the gate as "THE" show about a young woman who is spoken to by "God" (or some mysterious force) which would have only helped its momentum. Especially, when JoA premeried aroud Aug/Sept. People would have been comparing JoA TO Wonderfalls and not the other way around.

JoA would have had its good ratings and fanbase as well, but more importantly, WF would have had an equally as big one I'm sure -- for the curious who want to see "what the fuss is about these two shows?"

Unfortunately, that didn't happen.

Tim Minear has never stated why (maybe he doesn't know why), but this one, crucial step would probably have given WF a fighting chance in that if the ratings were still bad... It would have at least been given it's 13 episode run (instead of the paired down seven we have now) and you know that if it somehow caught on in popularity, there might be a slim chance that they'd give the greenlight for an additional 9 to finish out at least one season because then FOX could go and sell the DVDs...

Which leads me to something I think we should talk about here that no one really talks about on any TV board when shows are on the chopping block:

The big thing we forget about TV and the entertainment industry in general is the simple fact that it is an industry first and an "art" second.

TV is an industry. And just like any business that produced a product for the consumer, its overriding goals are to produce what people want (what they will pay for, I.E. give good ratings to, so ad revenue commercial air time can be sold) at the lowest possible price the studios/networks are willing to spend, and then just give it to them in as many similar "forms" that can be concieved to keep the cash(flow) coming in.

THIS, right here, is, unfortunately, why Reality TV is so hot. It satisfies the basic principles of business I just laid out... And it the point that needs stressing is that it has NOTHING to do with "artistic sensibilities" or even "taste".

I think with what's happening with "Angel" and WF is a good example for everyone to file away (aka remember) whenever people start to talk about "the moronic execs at FOX, The WB et al"... Because they are NOT moronic execs like we think.

They are businessmen (and women) and their primary goal is to make sure cash is coming into the studios (via the networks) BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY and unfortunately, that does not mean producing "good" TV like WF and the doznes of other shows that "never had a chance", nor keeping them when they are not performing well. That's business 101. You cut your losses on a product that is not bringing in expected revenue and put more resources into the ones that are (in this case, The O.C. and American Idol).

That's why, as much as I hate to admit it, the "moronic execs" at the networks and studios AREN'T moronic and are doing what they SHOULD -- what you'd expect ANY sane business person to be doing -- If they want to be called a Television Executive making executive decisions. It sucks, but it's not some "mystical" reasoning or "dumb ass" thinking as to why they behave the way they do is my point.

This leads me to my next point and that is what is also "wrong" with WF and how it's being marketed.

Like I stated above, it is NOT a mainstream type show... Yet FOX is trying to market it to that crowd.

It's like taking a brand new BMW and trying to market it to the people of a medium sized, tropical island who get around by strictly walking, or riding bicycles.

They don't need it... And probably, don't want it (at least, those that don't have those Neilsen boxes in their huts don't [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]..

But you understand my analogy, correct?

Substitute a quirky, well-written show with no explosions, no T&A, no killing and put that up against CSI, JAG, or even "The Bachelorette" and it's a no-win cause. It's completely the WRONG market.

That's what's wrong with WF and why I said that it would probably do a hell of a lot better on cable... Because it's more of an FX, HBO/SHOWTIME type show. Period.

I mean, everyone hear knows that the people behind it did Dead Like Me. What more proof than that do we need? Does FOX need to be more precise?

Not only is smartly written and acted... The subject matter is very adult for what it is... And that's just (apparently) not what the Nielsen families want (or want their 20something's watching).

I'm not trying to make some grand leap here and genralize the motivations behind the viewing habits of Nielsen famlies... But the fact there ARE Neilsen famlies with younger members of the family IS a reason why this show probably ISN'T as favored as something like JoA and others.

Like I said on the original WF thread on the TV Board, some parents have voiced their concern that this show be canceled purely on the grounds that it is "too dirty" and "too adult" for prime time (these are also (probably) the same people who no problem with their kids watching a show, or movie where fifty people are gunned down in shootouts and car chases, there is simulated sex and almost full frontal nudity just as long as it is "safe" and "purley escapism" and doesn't get thier kids "asking questions" real questions like WF and intelligent TV does).

And while I purposefully painted a picture of these Neilsen homes as "idiots" and "hypocrites" to further my argument... That portrayl probably ISN'T all that far from the truth and why, again, WF would be better served on a real cable network and not a psuedo-network that FOX pretends it's not.

[X-6_494]

Ooh, WORD.

Of course the execs aren't as stupid as we portray them - it is a business.
Though they sometimes still make exceedingly bad programming choices that we focus on to nitpick, heh.

I agree WF should have premiered during the summer like the OC - I'm not sure it would've had the same response, though.

Since [I think] FOX targets the same demographic with both shows. IMO, that's the problem though, since I don't think WF's subtely appeals to the same crowd.

They also wouldn't have risked putting out two scripted shows before the season started.

[mcdreamylover]

According to thefutoncritic Wonderfalls got a 1.1 in the all-important age 18-49 demographics.

[UnsilentMajorty]

Originally posted by X-6_494: <STRONG>Ooh, WORD. I agree WF should have premiered during the summer like the OC - I'm not sure it would've had the same response, though. Since [I think] FOX targets the same demographic with both shows. IMO, that's the problem though, since I don't think WF's subtely appeals to the same crowd.</STRONG>

And you know who thinks that? FOX.

That's also part of the problem (you bring up some very good points [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img])

Like I said above, FOX is mentality is still the "lowest common denominator" to reach the widest audience possible. While this isn't news and all networks do it...

The problem comes when everybody is afraid to TRY something new because no one wants to be responsible for a failure (financially or how their network is percieved by other networks and viewers).

Hollywood is a risk averse business that runs on FEAR. Plain and simple...

But obviously, someone thought WF had the potential to be different and obviously, bring in the ratings.

Again, while that is the basis for why all shows are greenlighted (more or less), you know that Tim Minear and company probably had to really work their asses off to pitch this to FOX to get the Pilot made in the first place because something as quirky as WF's relies HEAVILY on the writing moreso than any special effects and other things that you can "hide" weak writing and acting behind like on a lot of other scripted shows.

This comes back to what you said about whether or not it woud have had a bigger (or less) response during the summer because I think a show like this MAY have really taken off when JoA premiered around Aug/Sept. because then you'd have the buzz of "that other show" about the girl who talks to "things" and helps out people.

Maybe not.

But I think what killed this show, from the start, was the fact that they put it on as a mid-seaso replacement.

What mid-season replacement has ever lasted (on FOX) and become a full-blown series?

Not many... And that is because by definition, a mid-season replacement can't compete with the already established shows.

It's not rocket science, but it amazes me that WF didn't premiere last Fall (Nov; Dec) because that would have been the time to really promote it for next (this year) when the holiday rush is over (when most networks air reruns because they know people travel and won't be home).

Oh, well [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[UnsilentMajorty]

Originally posted by Zach Braff Lover: <STRONG>According to thefutoncritic Wonderfalls got a 1.1 in the all-important age 18-49 demographics.</STRONG>

That's because that demo is apparently watching stuff like "The Apprentice" and CSI, right?

I give up.

[img]smilies/bawl.gif[/img]

[the laziest little sidekick]

On the Nielsens:: It's absolutely impossible to generalize Nielsen families. For their data to be as accurate as possible (and they need it to be, because otherwise they'd have problems getting clients to trust them), they need a varied selection of people. Mathematically speaking, one thousand well-chosen families could have Nielsen boxes, and that would give a fairly accurate picture of what America is watching.

There are thousands of Nielsen families, and they come from all different backgrounds and classes. If Nielsen people were all alike, then the results would be skewed and the company would be ruined. Just like TV executives are businesspeople, not morons, the Nielsen figures offer the most accurate depiction possible of what people are watching.

As for TV executives...UnsilentMajorty is right, they're not stupid. They have to do what's best for their network. Still, FOX is probably the network that relies most on "shocking" reality TV, and it keeps on backfiring - something that gives shows like WF a chance.

[X-6_494]

The sad thing is that FOX won't dare renew a show like WF if it bombs - even if they're aware it could've taken off in different circumstances.

Hopefully we'll gets some great eps that'll garner better ratings during the next sweeps - anyone know how many episodes are officially picked up for now?

What mid-season replacement has ever lasted (on FOX) and become a full-blown series?

Heh, almost none. That's why it's not such a bad thing that Still Life (pilot supposed to air midseason as well) was pushed back.

I don't think a summer debut a la OC would've been the best, but like you said, a normal season start in sept/oct.

I don't watch fox much, so I don't know - what about WF's promotion?

ETA..Pffft. Neilsens. Too bad they're so little..wouldn't be surprised if they choose/tend to pick families that'd be enclined to watch the cheaper budget shows. /conspiracy theory.

[ 04-02-2004: Message edited X-6_494 ]

[Raja]

The show got waxes on Thursday no way around it. But it is the second worst night on Fox. If you remember the OC was originally supposed to be on Thursday at 9pm. But once they realized it was going to be a hit they moved it out of fear the Thursday spot would kill it. And it would have too!

Being a die hard Freaks and Geeks fan I'm getting a very serious case of Deja Vu.

Forget renewal. I just hope the show is even shown next week. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Eidolon14]

To perpetuate a mutual feeling here, the executives aren't stupid. If anything, it's America in general that needs a severe IQ boost. Sometimes I wonder if people realize that reality shows aren't real. Half of it is made up and what's left is just stolen from yet another reality show that's already fallen to the demise of cancellation.

And about what I like to call the O.C. Treatment: It was ingenious of Fox to air The O.C. during the summer. All the excess marketing didn't work against ratings either. Any show that had the perks of being so oft-advertised would be soaring as high as O.C. right now, Wonderfalls included, even though it may not be a "mainstream" show. What I find weird though is this: If the producers knew of what happened to Fox's greatly missed shows (many of which have been named), why was it even pitched to Fox in the first place. It's weird, saying a TV show isn't "mainstream," especially one on a channel that comes standard with all television (I think). But it is true. As weird and pompous as this may sound, I don't think America is ready for Wonderfalls (or Arrested Development and Cracking Up, for that matter). Maybe HBO America, but definitely not Standard Cable America, if you get my drift. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[natalie4237]

I think Wonderfalls should move to a cable network,
like showTime
i mean look at the other creators show Dead Like Me
has done great on Showtime and its comming back for a second season.

also if they move to a cable network,they wont have censor stuff

[ 04-03-2004: Message edited natalie4237 ]

[Eidolon14]

Originally posted by natalie4237: <STRONG>I think Wonderfalls should move to a cable network...</STRONG>

Just what I was getting at. The writers would be guaranteed additional creative freedom to do what they please. Its true target audience probably overlaps with Dead like Me, anyways.

[ 04-03-2004: Message edited Eidolon14 ]

[the laziest little sidekick]

The show would probably do well on a network like Showtime - still, I'd hate to have to resort to downloading.