scorpio_chick

Nope. It was your suggestion that Regina has some advantage that other characters don't. Hence, my reference to Hook and the sympathetic writing for him.

scififan2009

A lot of characters were lucky enough to get their second chance. I don't see what's so wrong with Emma trying to give Marian that.

Well, she does have magic, a big house, money, good wardrobe, a job that puts her in a position of power. She's got it pretty good compared to Hook who doesn't even have his home anymore.

scorpio_chick

There's nothing wrong with wanting to save a life but how you can give a second chance to a woman who was (likely) fated to die? Perhaps Emma should have asked herself that question?



Well she's the EQ, (or former EQ) after all. I think all of that is warranted. And wouldn't Hook's "lack of..." make him more sympathetic?

CityGal

She did. The woman was innocent and only crime was aiding Snow. Hence saving her from execution is a good thing. Do we know she was fated to die via execution? As I said before, it is already known that Marian dies, but the story is not one of execution. So the freeing of her that night might have been exactly what did happen in the real timeline. But as I said, there was no way Emma, or frankly anyone else in that tunnel wasn't going to free her either.



Actually, I have JMO and A&E's quotes towards end of season 1 before the finale. Plus all the interviews that they wanted the Captain Hook character for season 1, but because of legalities they weren't allowed so his story got shelved. Yep, they wanted him to have a contentious story with Rumple and the writing room came up with Milah (and it was the men in the room, too!) Were the two antagonist to start, not in the beginning, only after the betryal on the beanstalk. It was the betrayal on Emma's part that created the tension and yes, it is the "conflict" created and overcoming said conflict.. Just as Snow's initial disdain for Charming and robbing him was their initial conflict. Pattern is two people initially meet, form a connection, create antagonism with an undercurrent of "something" more, come to the aid of the other, etc....(learned in film writing class) We can certainly disagree if their creative story ideas of meeting these markers were successful. Hence I suspect, this is why they hired the therapist as per their interview.


Once again, saving the woman was her priority. The timeline discussion occurred after the rescue while sitting on the log. That is when she made the decision to bring Marian with them for a fresh start. Of course it's not going to go dandy, it's OUAT. Yep, Emma will be conflicted.


Well since the story line was really about Emma and her desires and not about Regina...


Let me say this as a final point. In college I had to take a creative writing class and out of all of my choices, I selected a film writing class. I was not interested in a film career, but thought it was a different form of writing and was so "out" of my comfort zone. In the end, it wound up being one of the most interesting writing classes I've attended.

There has been no show I've ever viewed since that more aptly reflects everything I learned from that writing class then "Once Upon A Time" - crafting a treatment and how to outline a story is more evident here than any other. It's not a crime or medical drama procedural which is plot driven and characters come and go forever (law & order). FTC have specific perameters and Adam and Eddy have an overall plan. Does that mean every individual episode has been known or every detail predetermined - no. But the over arching themes, milestones and markers are already crafted and known. Emma's significant backstory and other key character moments are known and have been held back for a reason. As the lead, we've only had one significant backstory on her character "Tallahassee" and two - one shot events (Henry's birth, young Emma longing for home). They are holding if off for a reason. My guess to mirror her a current plight and juxipose past encounter. JMO has noted the tattoo on her wrist and how/why Emma got it is known to her, but writers haven't gotten arond to telling it. Just as they've know how Regina adopted Henry - could they have told us in season 1, yeah, but it wouldn't be as impactful as in NVL with Regina almost losing Henry. It's the when to reveal those stories which can bring the greatest emotional impact is the tricky part. Could A&E make an alteration or adjustment along the way? Of course they can, it doesn't change their overall themes and ideas. So sitting in that NYC apartment, they thought of Snow/Charming falling in love and hitting him over the head with a rock, friendship between Snow and Little Red Riding Hood, but more importantly they did plan for the protagonist Emma Swan, the daughter of iconic Snow Whit and Prince Charming, to have a true love interest of her own, and their creative pick was Captain Hook. Eddy's favorite story as a kid was Peter Pan and Adam's was Snow White, how does one mesh the two? The invention of Captain Swan. Does everyone approve how A&E conceive of the two characters meeting and their continuous journey - of course not. Not even CS fans agree on each and every episodic detail. It's the overall seasons' journey that matter and the character movements. Just as the Regina/Snow relationship in season 1 to the end of season 3 is vastly different.

From my perspective, there is a clear overarching story and themes which have been outlined by the iconic true love pair of Snow and Charming. Every couple is following the same path albet in their own style, but there is an outlined patterned. Which is why I once stated that OQ starting in 3B is fast (met in 3.13/3.14 and kissed in 3.17 with full relationship throught the rest of half - 8 episodes and in a full relatinship) and is heading for conflict next season. It is the pattern. There are parallels, premieres mirror the finale, and stories coming around full circle. So Eddy, Adam and the writers are following the same outline taught in film writing classes on how to craft a story, and definitely hitting the markers of creating a romance couple - a true love romance couple, which makes all the difference in storytelling.

scorpio_chick

I'm not arguing as to whether Emma should have saved her from execution. I agree...that was a good thing. I'm specifically referring to her decision to bring her into the future, thus giving her a "fresh start." Was that actually the "right thing to do?" IMO, it's a legit question that shouldn't be swept aside simply because Emma saved a life.


They may have very well wanted him from the start and wanted a flirtatious relationship with Emma but based on what I saw onscreen, I'm not convinced that CS was always meant as a love story.


Thus, the writers couldn't spare a scene with someone acknowledging that Emma was wrong for not consulting Regina? To be clear, this is not something I'm particularly angry about, lol. I'm just pointing out that Regina doesn't have a monopoly on sympathetic writing.

CityGal

Fair enough. It is a legit question and highly doubt it will be swept aside and A&E hnted as much. Emma will have conflict and Regina will have to make choices.

My main concern is the notion Emma should not have rescued the woman at all. And on that we agree.



And that's okay. But I will say it perfectly aligned with writing romantic tropes. If you take it out of OUAT's world and put it in a legal setting...two people meet at a party/bar, flirtation and connection ensues, next morning in court they are opposing sides in a case, they fight/argue/banter with undertones of flirtations, one's in trouble, the other rescues, etc...
the entirity of Emma's relationship with Neal was in one episode - the meeting, the good times then the tragic betrayal and downfall. Done. (not dissing SF fans just noting writing) Where as CS was about the underlying understanding of each other, the growing comfort level between them, etc... That's all I'm saying. Maybe it wasn't as successful or wasn't as overt as A&E would have like it to been, but by the end of season 2 with her offer of "being a part of something" as the ultimate clue. Ultimately, A&E wanted Emma/Hook to be a TL couple which appealed to JMO bbecause a "good" girl with a "bad" boy, with the irony that the "good" girl wasn't "good" (she's an ex-con thief) who turned her life around vs. the "bad" boy who initially was a goody-goody turned "bad" and maintains that "bad" moniker who is trying to turn his life around. But to each her/his own.




No I get it, but I think they did that story in 3A. It really wasn't a battle between them any longer and as I said Emma encourged R/H relationship early in 3B. The audience already knows Regina's response - so why rehash it. Instead they focused on Emma's search for a home and using Henry and their safety as an excuse.

stellvia

I agree. I think Emma will feel very conflicted about what she's done precisely because of the way it has impacted Regina. Though I don't think Emma and Hook brought Marian with them for a "fresh start," I think their main concern was protecting the timeline. They never imagined she would have any connection with the people they know in Storybrooke, they just wanted to protect the past without having to kill an innocent woman.


Thank you for that interesting description of the story development for the series. I had never heard the story of what was behind the development of the concept for the series in general or Hook's role in the overarching storyline. And I agree that the development of OQ was "fast." And after seeing what they did at the end of the finale, I now understand why it had to happen quickly. They needed people invested in OQ to give the return of Marian more emotional impact. Not confident I'll enjoy how it plays out though because unless they reveal that Marian has done something really terrible (which I wouldn't like because I love the character of Marian in the Robin Hood ballads), or she dies somehow (which seems to be what most people expect),it's going to be tough to separate Robin from Marian. Just have to wait and see I guess.

Grace52373

Going back over things, I just think Adam and Eddy are reconning. They have done it before just ask any Rumbelle fan. I am not a Captain Swan or Hook fan, but I understand their fans going over every bit of dialogue and moments between the two and believing they are meant to be the true love story. Every ship can say that. Rumbelle wasn't meant to be together at first, but were because they were popular and the actors have chemistry. In my way of thinking, ships are born three ways, writers see actors who have onscreen chemistry and work well together, they are experimenting to see what fits, and they are purposely creating a couple. In my opinion, the first one works the best.

See the reason I have a problem with the writers and actors insisting this was were they were going to take the story is because the same could be said about swan thief. Graham/Emma was a big ship because they had chemistry and I was rooting for them, and than he died. Than comes August, they claimed in interviews that August was going to be involved with Emma and hinted it would be romantically, that fell through as well. Than comes Hook and Neal. The same episode that showed Hook/Emma also showed Neal/Emma. Neal was the reason she was closed off, but they were shown to be in love. A lot of swan thief fans like me, started shipping them after that episode, same as the captain swan fans. The parallels were in there too. Neal, the reason for the curse and Emma, the curse breaker, their son, the one who gets her to believe. You also have the parallel with Hook/Emma, not being each other's first serious relationship and possibly healing and finding love again. Both ships could claim that during season 2. Season 2 also ended with Emma telling Neal she loves him and vice versa, you also have the complication of a deceitful fiancé. The writers talked about Emma being torn between the two and pretty much everyone was dreading the triangle! Now this season, they kill Neal off, claiming to have planned it and are now going with Captain Swan which is why a lot of us are having problems with this story.

I think that writers intend things and some things fall through, i.e.: actors want to leave, they don't click well, the story doesn't work well. Sometimes they say that this is what we intended but in reality they may have intended a story arc but if something happens that forces them to go another way, they have back up plans. If you ship that couple, than of course you will naturally believe that this couple was intended all along and if you don't ship them, than you won't trust the what the writers say. I am not singling out any fandom, just stating my opinion. We all have shipper bias, so it that colors our viewpoints. It is nothing to be ashamed of and is natural. Unfortunately, it can cause fights sometimes. Let's all ship who we want and agree to disagree.

CityGal

You're welcome and if you have a Q feel free to ask away. One of the TL themes is that TL couples "fight" to stay together when obstacles are thrown at them. Villains like to separate TL couples. Using Snow/Charming as an example Regina/King George constantly threaten the pair via all types of ways and each time they resuced and found a way to maintain a relationship and their love grew stronger. So after redeeming Regina in 3A a happily disposed audience is cheering on a love interest. There is nothing holding them back except Regina's own demons and the relationship flourishes and the audience is happy for her. They laid the trap and pulled the rug out from under. How would RH's own iconic TL interest affect OQ and how will Regina handle it. She could hurl a fireball toward Emma and Marian, but I doubt tha would do much for her redemption. So next season should be interesting, hopefully this summer's promotional posters will clue us in....and at this late hour...I noticed so many grammar/spelling errors and it's driving me nutso. So my apologies.

Almost finish with this thread.

scorpio_chick

I would not say it was done. That was a backstory to their relationship, as most of the past/established couples have gotten. If A&E wanted, they could have most certainly built on that with tons of potential for angst, story and more flashbacks, as we saw in the finale. Again, I was never a ST fan but I thought that was a beautiful moment and showcased the depth and potential of their relationship.

I get the CS appeal. Hey, I shipped them once, mainly because of the chemistry and Colin's portrayal of Hook as the "bad boy" falling for the heroine. But I never saw them as a "destiny couple" and eventually, A&E's writing turned me off. But I don't begrudge others for shipping them...to each his/her own, indeed.


It wouldn't be about rehashing Regina's response but rather, acknowledging the fault in Emma's thinking.

stellvia

I'd like to make a new thread title suggestion if one hasn't been decided on already:

All we can do at times like these is try and live in the here and now.

or maybe

Home is the place, when you leave, you just miss it.

ETA: Don't worry too much about errors. It's not like you'll be submitting it for a grade.

CityGal

May I add it to the list? One was already selected. It's another Rumple one. We have a long hiatus and we''ll need them so keep them coming.

a couple of more posts to close this one out.

scorpio_chick

LOL I will never believe they actually planned Neal's death. To kill a character, bring him back, only to kill him again a short while later? Yeah, ok! lol Bottom line is that you can't have Neal onscreen, saying he will always fight for Emma while also advancing CS as a couple. And yes, I think that was a leading factor in Neal's demise.

CityGal

But when? In actually, his actions were to the contrary. In the season 2 premiere, the unkown man shown receives a postcard said "Broken". We now know it was Neal. He knew the curse was broken, he knew exactly where she was, did he go after his true love? No, he did not. He never made a move to find her, see if she was okay. He was also shown that he was in a better place. He was wearing a suit, had an apartment, in essence his life is better without her in it. Later we discover, he's actually engaged. Why do that? The writers are saying, without Emma, Neal moved on with his life and he met another woman and made a committment to spend the rest of his life with said woman. If August was the representation of the "obstacle", then Neal eventually conceded to it. Snow and Charming battled against their obstacles and bested them.

The theme on this show is that True Love couples want to be together. They fight to be together. They constantly seek the other out. Their True Love makes each of them better. They enhance the other to be their best selves. When they are not with their True Loves, they can't move on and revert to their worst selves. (uh, oh, Regina) It is troubling for them. Neal in this story was always fine without Emma.

Since I believe Neal's main point was to reconcile and redeem Rumple, and his relationship with his father was at the heart of his character. Exactly what was best about the young Bae represented. As A&E said, if Emma met some random guy named Steve and he knocked her up would it be as interesting story - no it wouldn't. Having meet the lost son of the Dark One adds complexity and has greater emotional impact for the audience. That's why they did it. (so the Ice Queen most likely will be related to someone, just sayin' )

ETA: As you previosly stated, the writers clearly were advancing the CS story which was the point. Neal represented Emma's emotional baggae she needed to let go in order to have a future relationship. Secondly, they made writing choices that showed though Neal cared for and loved Emma he was not the right one for her. Why? Because he doubts her abilities at many points, and is the prime reason for the creation of Tamara. The writers let the audience know Tamara was a bad gal. Exactly whom Emma suspected! The audience was on Emma's side. Who wasn't? Neal. He chalked it up to jealousy, etc. The point is he doesn't believe her, he doesn't trust her instincts, he doubts her, etc....

Even bringing up the finale, Hook encourges Emma's magic "You CAN do it". He challenges her to be her best selves. there are others and as you said it's in the writing. Which is fine if you have a different preference. (one of the reasons why Wonderland lost me)

CityGal