MarvelousToons

Peter Quill (what Gunn did with him anyway) is a much easier character to write, than Adam Warlock, Silver Surfer, even X-Men like Forge. One fan alleged Gunn making a remark about focusing on the "everyday" type, a character that's more "relatable". If that's true, I so call bull*****. Gunn lacks the imagination to explore complex characters and topics, and masks his lack to actually write creatively with his "bad taste" humor style of comedy.

sum1

Forge... with all this Black Panther stuff people seem to have forgotten Storm/Forge. I support Storm/Forge and Storm/Wolverine. I don't support Storm/Black Panther because T'Challa is a Mary Sue like Captain America and when Storm's with him she's shoved into playing second fiddle to him. Storm's nobody's sidekick, she's the best leader of the X-Men.

MarvelousToons

In the short series I'm working on, FOR certain fans Storm and T'Challa show they have a crush (or he has one on her) but I've paired Storm with my revised version of Thunderbird. Proudstar develops a mind of his own outside the team, and is constantly going against the things Scott, Jean and Xavier would dictate. One of which, he encourages Storm a lot to take on her leadership skills. They wind up together though.

PhoenixRising

I think that's bunk. All these "relatable" characters are just examples of lazy writing on the part of guys like Gunn who only want to write about themselves and not try to stretch and imagine something else. Sure, Adam Warlock, Silver Surfer, Thor, and a lot of these epic heroes are written in a kind of "classical" way, in keeping with classical mythology, but that doesn't mean you can't inject some other stuff into them. Joss Whedon poked fun at this in The Avengers, where Iron Man mocked Thor and Loki's conversation by calling it "Shakespeare in the park," saying, "Dost thy mother know thou wearest her drapes?" That was self aware, but it proves my point.

You saw the way I wrote Adam in my version of the Avengers saga, and how I portrayed him as not only the cosmic superhero, but also a 1980s pop culture time capsule, with all of his references to movies, music, and TV shows. My climax of my six volume story had Adam and Carol in Soul World, preparing for the final battle against Thanos, with Adam quoting Rutger Hauer's "Tears In Rain" monologue, saying, "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe," while recalling all of the events that have happened in the MCU up to that point, and ending on, "all those moments will be lost in time... like tears... in rain." Then Carol says, "You got that from Blade Runner!" and Adam acknowledges this, but says he only quotes the classics. Or when Thanos and Adam have their final conversation at the end of the first Guardians of the Galaxy movie, where Thanos says, "Are you going to kill me now, Adam?" and Adam replies, "I'm too tired... maybe later." Then Thanos says, "It's a pity. You and I could've accomplished greatness together. We'd have made quite a team, Adam," to which Adam glares at Thanos and replies, "The name's Warlock." That was a homage to Kurt Russell as Snake Plissken in Escape From New York. So you see, there's always room to play around with a character while also remaining true to the character's storyline and persona. Gunn is just being a petulant dweeb.

MarvelousToons

couldn't agree more. and one thing I despise, more that OP Mary Sues, its "author avatars" or "self insertion". That makes my skin crawl. If a writer is writing an original story in which their character is a representation of themselves or ideals, no problem (so long its done with taste). Say what you want of George Lucas, but he's done a number of things right, one being Luke Skywalker serving as his self insert.

But the PROOOOBLEM for poor ol'Gunn is that takes effort, and creativity, and that's totally asking for too much of the poor guy. Who are we as the audience spending our hard earned money ON these multi-million dollar franchises, to demand quality and creativity in these works we financially support and follow for decades?...

At least that's what I feel Gunn is saying to himself.

Yes I remember what you told me of your Avengers/Infinity Saga narrative, and you like other creative fans I've seen, know and understand these principles. And in reality, it doesn't take too much effort to do this well.

Using your vers of Adam Warlock, we get someone with a "fate of the world on your shoulders" narrative, however we also get their human side and nature, akin to our own. And what makes it good, you thought to incorporate classic but modern nostalgia, that spans enough generations to appreciate Adam's human side. But this doesn't take away from the complexities he face, but if anything ADDS to them.

For me, Gunn is not only an uncreative, cretinous dweeb, he's also someone I feel has far little respect for the medium he's working with, and desires more to bullhorn his bull**** and not give a crap about how we as fans or new comers would feel

sum1

I also tend to prefer Marvel's mutant characters to be in relationships wit their fellow mutants, rather than humans or non-mutant superhuman types. I don't like the way the X-Men and co have gotten so tied up with the general Marvel universe this century. It wasn't that way back in the '80s and '90s.

MarvelousToons

Well the X-Men are like an odyssey of their own, though I personally don't mind showing that they partake in a greater whole. That's something I do want to explore.

I also don't like whenever Storm is paired with someone to "strong" of a character, because all the focus will go to them (using Black Panther as the example) and yes, she becomes second banana.

With the way I've rewritten John Proudstar (down to changing his tribe and powers), he's like a silent, cool-calm-collected rebel within the X-Men, and despite Scott and Jean assuming most of the leadership, Proudstar constantly sways Storm to take the helm (though a bit of an ulterior motive), and when she does, the group sees just how powerful and intelligent she is. Their friendship, certain struggles and even powerset is what brings them together.

PhoenixRising

I actually do agree with you there, sum1. I think these mutant-human relationships tend to go horribly, unless the human in question is a superhuman.


Hi, Marvelous Toons! Sorry I couldn't reply sooner, but FF has been down on and off the last two days while they've been switching servers.

Oh, yeah, both the Mary Sue and the Author Avatar are wish fulfillment characters, which compromises the story because the writers aren't really going to challenge their characters at all, or challenge their writing. Rey in the Star Wars sequels is another example of this. Luke Skywalker is a character that really had to earn it by going through the journey, making mistakes, humbling himself, and rising to the challenge and triumphing.

Look at Gunn's track record. This is the guy who wrote the Dawn of the Dead remake and directed the horror film, Slither. One was just a redo of George Romer's work, and the other was a ripoff of Night of the Creeps and David Cronenberg's Shivers. I don't know how he suddenly got qualified to direct a space epic. He's defined by mediocrity.

Yep, that's how I see it. Like I said before, during a scene in The Infinity Gauntlet storyline, the Silver Surfer seems angered by Warlock's attitude towards everything, asking him if he was treating all of this as a game. Adam replied by saying, "If I treated it as anything else, I could not go on." This is a scene that I would've had happen between Adam and Carol. But yeah, Adam has the weight of the world on his shoulders and he never asked for it or felt like he had a choice. I merely added a bit of humor and 80s nostalgia to Adam's personality, indicative of a Gen Xer dealing with the harsh reality of the present while reminiscing about his formative years, like Johnny Lawrence in Cobra Kai.

Yeah, I agree with the rest of what you said about Gunn. I'd use harsher language.

MarvelousToons

oh its now prob. it was crazy that the forums kept going down. Made me a little nervous lol

my youngest sister and I talk about this all the time. She was the main person to make me realize all that's really wrong with Rey's character IS she's Kathleen Kennedy's somewhat author avatar. And similar to how sum1 feels about Jean Grey, I don't innately hate Rey, I wish I could like this character, but she's very poorly designed, esp. once you get to the end of the series.

Luke, despite "antiquated" writing style, hits all the marks of a good, relatable and even realistic hero. He's an example of what Marvel does wrong with Jean Grey. I don't recall her committing actual major error, having to face internal ugly within. They make her so overly perfect, even they attempt at giving her flaws, its weak sauce compared to actual flaws they'll give other heroes. All to make her some perfect chosen one, I suppose.

Rey follows the SAME problem. I don't mind her being an overly enthused plucky teen... I mind the writers NOT exploring the full scope of the zealous, overly cocky, ambitious, rebellious, plucky teen. Rey NEEDED the "evil Rey" plot, to explore how she'd handle facing darkness within herself.

How I'd have done this, in "The Last Jedi" Rey should have been swayed to the Dark Side, while Kylo Ren should have been touched by the Light Side. Then by the last film, Kylo Ren is born again but learns how to wield his demons AS his greatest weapon and one for the Light Side. Rey should discover reason to balance Dark and Light sides of the Force, then they team up, and NOT do whatever the hell that ending was... let Ben Solo live... they together start a new order called "Skywalker" THE END. That's not HARD to do.

Ha, that's putting it lightly imo

This is what I was kinda hinting at above, but you explore it your own way. I like the idea of that hero that's somewhat nonchalant, indifferent, or as you said "treats all as a game" because this does humanizes your hero, giving them some kind of characteristics or personality traits we've all had at some point. And while my pref is a bit different from yours (because I'd usually explore the hero's anxiety affecting them and their choices negatively), but I also greatly appreciate and feel the hero being chill about their circumstance, so it may NOT cause them anxiety. These are various ways to give substance to the hero. And adding those particular details (with the 80s nostalgia) grants an additional level of human, that brings people INTO the character.

LOL then let me say, Gunn's soul is an appalling dumpfire of a heap overflowing with the most disgraceful assortment of deplorable sewage and rubbish imaginable, mangled up in tangled up knots!

PhoenixRising

FF switched servers because they were having issues with the previous server, as many people's avatars were disappearing, and other stuff. They told us that FF was gonna be down temporarily, but it turned out to be longer than we though. They're still fixing glitches from the server switch. It may take weeks or months to fix completely.


Yep, it's obvious that Rey is that. Luke is an avatar of Lucas to an extent, but the difference is that Lucas didn't have any agenda when creating Luke and the Star Wars mythology. He just wanted to create a story that he was inspired to write by his childhood influences, like the Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers serials, the samurai films of Akira Kurosawa, old World War II movies, science fiction novels like Frank Herbert's Dune, etc. He was also writing it with a post-Vietnam, post-Watergate theme. Kennedy had no inspiration, she just wanted a female character to replace Luke because she felt that Star Wars primarily appealed to men and she wanted to flip the script and make it more what she wanted it to be... but the problem is that it's not hers. She can't just come up with something of her own? Suzanne Collins created Katniss Everdeen and The Hunger Games from her own imagination, and again, she had no feminist agenda. The only reason her main character is a woman is because... duh, Collins is a woman. But the story was inspired by dystopian science fiction stories and movies she'd read and seen, and the trend of reality shows that dominated the early 2000s, along with the post-9/11 environment. In other words, she wrote it for all the right reasons, similar to Lucas.


But Rey wasn't going through the hero's journey. People like Kennedy, Abrams, and Johnson don't even like the hero's journey. Rey's storyline was more about deconstructing Luke and propping up Rey rather than actually telling a story the likes of which you'd probably make.



Well, I'm glad we feel the same way about Gunn. I'd toss in Kevin Feige as well.

Well, the thing about Adam is that he had to learn a lot about his own humanity on the fly. He didn't have a childhood and had little time to learn all of the things about what it means to be human that we all take for granted. In the process, he possibly became even more appreciative of life and virtue more than most people, and dedicated himself to being a "champion of life," as Thanos once mockingly called him. I forgot where Adam got the nickname "God-Slayer," but perhaps I'll look it up one time. I do know he went up against some cosmic heavy hitters. But the reason that he treats the situation with Thanos and the Infinity Gauntlet as a game is because, again, if he took it as seriously as some others would, he'd have difficulty going forward at all. He's afraid that he'd give in to despair or madness, so instead he remains cocky and confident, even when he's not sure of success. Fear and doubt would distract him from being able to overcome adversity, so that's the reason he gave the Surfer that response.

I think he learned the hard way when his life came crashing down around him during the whole Magus-Thanos storyline back in the 1970s to not go down that road again, where he nearly suffered a complete psychological collapse, which is what created the Magus in the first place. The writers were really intend on having him suffer as a messianic hero is expected to, so I think that's what affects Adam's behavior following his resurrection during the Infinity Gauntlet storyline and beyond, into the 1990s and 2000s. He's been there, done that, and doesn't wanna go back to that place.

MarvelousToons

Oh ok lol good to hear

I'm gonna try to make this reply much shorter lol you and I have a tendency to writing our rants in essay formats lol

Well something I say to my sister when it comes to writing a narrative of any kind, this is my order of primary points you must hit to make it good:

1. Plot
2. The POINT of it
3. Characterization
4. World building
5. Mythos/Lore
6. IF there's one, Agenda LAST

If you've got an agenda, put on the back end of the most important facets, that being the plot, what's the POINT of it, character development, all that **** needs to be primary, because if the agenda is your focus, it WILL FAIL. I've yet seen a movie where the agenda took precedence and it ruins the film.

Its like Black Widow vs. Capt Marvel. BW is a far cry better film with the female empowerment msg, because it did much better at focusing on a STORY, that functions, developing actual characters, and properly building its world and lore.

Kennedy prolly would use the female empowerment as an excuse for what she did to the third trilogy... and even speaking as a female myself, found it distasteful to come with this attitude that Star Wars is now only for girls, sort of thing. First of all, no that's not true or will even work. Second, you're alienating your original fanbase, and stirring the kind of ruckus that will deter any potential noobs.

I mean I feel ANYONE could have done this better. One of us would have done better than the dumpster fire that ruined and soiled a beloved franchise

Too bad Kennedy, you walked into picking up after someone ELSE'S narrative. You can only take the foundation already laid and build with it, not toss it aside for your own ideas and agenda. That's one of several reasons Rey's story was a failure, and this third trilogy was a failure. You went against the essence of this franchise. It was the cinematic definition of the Hero's Journey... not the one dimensional Mary Sue scoop of blah.

lol

And see that's what makes him special, and makes him a character you feel invited into, and part of. And its the trial and error of said hero, that makes him/her learn, self evaluate, sometimes self afflict, all alongside their feats and accomplishments, and us rooting for them to "make it". That EARNS the heroism, the power, etc.

This is my problem with Jean Grey. The Phoenix is never earned, and this STUIPD fμcking excuse Jean fans give is "oh she was willing to sacrifice her life! That's why it came to her!" that's bμll5hit! Other heroes died for sacrificial cause on greater levels than Jean, the lore and mythos of it makes no fμcking sense at all.

and though I've yet read Adam Warlock's comics, what I've read ON him makes me relate to him, and feel like I'm part of the journey, it could even be my journey too. But Phoenix's narrative is VERY exclusive, you don't feel like you're part of it because its this "chosen one" trope done as wrong as wrong could ever be done. I wind up just ignoring or skipping anything Phoenix related, just to get away from that pedestal they put Jean on.

some of these are themes I wanna touch on, especially as Adam has to connect his own "circle" together to learn the truth of his destiny. There's dark places Adam must go, not wanting back to things he already suffered in his previous incarnation, but needs to in order to gain full insight of what his place is in the grand scheme of it all.

Even the bit of psychosis I do wanna explore. In MY AvX (or might be prior), Adam is one of the heroes Phoenix Force condemns, sending Adam into a "dark night of the soul". but through a lot of soul work, Adam starts becoming stronger and able to overcome areas he revisits in his past, and in overcoming them, he gains greater power, and becomes a major asset to his team against the Phoenix Force and Cosmic Order

PhoenixRising

That's very good, Marvelous Toons! That's like film school or creative writing class stuff. Oh, and I agree, you just articulated what I was talking about. Oh, and don't worry, I'll try to keep it short and sweet myself.

Yes, I think that too often writers and filmmakers today get too caught up in self-indulgent angst and the storytelling gets lost in the process. I think this is similar to what was going on in the last 60s and early 70s.

Well, I haven't seen either, so I can't comment, but what I will say is that Captain Marvel omitting Mar-Vell from both Carol's storyline and his own was disingenuous and dishonorable. That was more woke feminist nonsense which diminished the depth of the story from the comics where Carol inherits the mantle from her lover, Mar-Vell, following his death. There's a lot of story in the Kree-Skrull War saga where Mar is dying from radiation poisoning and Carol goes on the run with him to hide him from both the Skrulls and the US Government. A lot of Carol's storyline and her motives are from her relationship with Mar-Vell, and cutting Mar-Vell out of the story just for some petulant reason like not wanting a woman to have to take on a man's mantle is ridiculous.

The Captain Marvel movie was in fact, not based on the original comics, but an alternate reality "What If?" storyline writing ten years ago by a female writer who wanted to change Carol's story into one of feminist empowerment and "a rejection of the idea that Mar-Vell had to create Captain Marvel." Sorry, but that's a weak-ass reason for doing anything, as if Carol's original storyline lacked depth or nobility. Jeez, now it's sexist just to have a woman look out for the man she loves and mourn his loss while taking up his mantle? Again, what about Katniss Everdeen? Her love for Peeta and her being torn between Peeta and Gale didn't compromise her story or her "female power," so to speak.

Oh yeah, that's absolutely correct. Kennedy is the one who is co-opting someone else's work, namely George Lucas, to empower herself without earning it by creating her own story and doing her own work. This has become such a commonality in today's Hollywood it makes me sick, like that all-female Ghostbusters remake.

I'll get to the rest of your post later, Marvelous Toons. I got up at 3am today, so I'm practically passing out.

MarvelousToons

LOL poor you! I'm usually up that late with classes. I know its morning now by my time, but still, get ur rest. I'll reply in full later as well

PhoenixRising

Yep, Rey wasn't created as an original idea from a storyteller's imagination, Rey was created specifically for an agenda, nothing more. She's boring because she has no story, she's used more like a tool for Kathleen Kennedy. But that's not how you write a story or a character.


That's one of the reasons I was so fascinated by Adam Warlock as a kid. He was so unconventional as a hero, yet he had the classic hero's journey. But it was also quite tragic, and it made quite an impression on me as a kid.

Well, Jean is another story. I think they overcompensated with her, creating the Phoenix iteration because they felt like she was always portrayed as weaker than the other X-Men. Fantastic Four did that with Invisible Woman at the beginning, when she was the Invisible Girl and could only turn invisible but nothing else. It was only later on that she began projecting her invisible force fields, which greatly elevated her power status. I think they just messed up with Jean due to their attempts at trying to correct their previous screw up with Jean. They kept making mistakes in their efforts to improve on her.




Oh, he's gone to dark places already, I assure you. But your idea is fascinating, I'll admit. I never thought of Adam being involved with the Phoenix storyline in any way. Oh, and by "his team" do you mean the Guardians or the Avengers?

MarvelousToons

oh yes, I was an instructor at an art academy for animation and writing so, being around indie writers, these were things I learned and also researched. LOL well I know I didn't keep it as short as I wanted

Yeah I KNEW something was missing with this film (I mean it was quite a bit this film was lacking) but learning of Mar Vell and how they as you said, omitted him and his relationship with Danvers was such a miscall. And if anything this injures their message, because her taking his mantle shows she's as good as he is, regardless of sex. Also it misses an excellent expression of comradery between the sexes.

Removing Mar Vell completely drew out Carol's personality, and its the reason I found her flat and lacking. And additional to your point, also the idea that love takes away from a woman's story has always been an asinine ideal to me. Love can help one find inner strength if anything so... that's just stupidity.

Sooo the Capt. Marvel we got was based on a WHAT IF???? -_-

no wonder lol yeah writers will take various liberties in deciding what's sexist or not, and will screw stuff up because... their trying to use the feminist agenda to sell a product, and it always fails. But that's what made Black Widow much better, it felt like they were legitimately trying to tell a story, and wove in their female empowerment message, rather than only focus on their message.

And again, on the point about Carol not having a lover, in them trying to make her too powerful without what it takes to earn it, she wound up being dull and empty, which is a problem I've had with Jean Grey too. She didn't do anything to really earn her becoming of Phoenix, it just happened, then "chosen one" cliche happened, and... it just fell apart imo.

I wouldn't have mind it if she wanted to build on the Star Wars narrative with her own ideas... the problem is she USED Star Wars for nothing more than her own agenda. It was no longer about the narrative, Star Wars just became a platform for her ideas. If she wanted to create something of her own for that, no problem. But coming into SW the way it happened just alienated everyone, and sent the fanbase into a whirlpool of toxicity and division.

Well the all female ghostbusters suffers from agendas created to sell a product to a particular target audience. What makes ME mad is they'll take established works to create their bull5hit because its a cheat for using an already pre-established audience. But when you deviate so much from the original property, and at that make it a 5hit fest of a product, then you'll only anger prior fans, and alienate any newcomers and even your new target audience. So please Hollywood, just stop it (they won't listen I know)

true true. nothing more I can add to that.

well the Hero's Journey is one trope that is heavily misunderstood by current writers imo. The purpose of the hero's journey is to help the reader/viewer reflect in their own life and explore themselves by identifying with the hero/heroine central to the plight. Its become harder to do right because you either have writers for Mary Sue characters, or writers that confuse the hero's journey with writing cliches (like the chosen one or macguffin), and either way, this always ends in failure (at least in my book)

that's a good perspective and yes, I do feel like they also overcompensated. Often I've seen how writers have this notion of overpowering a character equals "empowerment" and they couldn't be more wrong.

The overcompensation comes from how Phoenix is so over done and over hyped. I've already ranted before but, I'll say it again... what makes Jean so f#cking special that she's the only person in all of existence that can wield the Phoenix's full potential? How is SHE most like the Phoenix Force? How is the Phoenix Force unable to bond with anyone who's will could just be powerful enough, why does it always go back to Jean or one of her clones? How can the Phoenix be the sum of all life in the cosmos, and is so overly limited in who can host it, in THIS fashion? The Phoenix and how it works is DUMBER than the Midi-Chlorians in Star Wars.

None of this is explained and even worse, none of it is justified or earned. This creates such a distance between normal people (not counting Jean's rabbid fanbase) she's no longer someone you can relate to, because the writers were so busy trying to make her special, she no longer had qualities of a layman, that makes her relatable and makes her have to earn such status (which she most definitely did not).

Nope, hopefully over the weekend I can PM you the plot so you'd know better what its all about, and what becomes Phoenix's greatest rival