sum1

I liked Max a lot, just with some reservations.

I disagree with everything you said to me in your post.

And I've replied to your PM with one of my own.

AlexEvans

Please do. And thank you!

You make good points regarding Tess. It's also worth noting that Tess hatred is primarily found in Dreamers, not Stargazers. Sum1 is right that there are Dreamers who like Tess, and Tess-haters who aren't Dreamers - but the above are trends i've found on every Roswell group I've participated in. Certainly I'm pretty familar with what Gazers tend to think. We are irritated with Tess' constant interruptions in S1, but regarding S2 are fed up with the plot holes that did in Alex, and with the patently absurd false rationales spun out by the producers. We don't focus our anger on Tess, and in fact have a lot of sympathy for Tess and Kyle/Tess fans who also lost what they loved about our show.

Shipper groups do differ. They vary in age, gender ratio, etc. And in what bothers them.

Raonaild

IMHO, the thing that is very similar about those two relationships is that Max and Liz are totally in love and devoted to each other, in the same way that Spike is totally devoted to and in love with Buffy. And despite that, Max/Liz had a lot of trouble making it work, so it was interesting to follow the angst ... just like following the angst between S/B.

I don't want to get dragged into the debate over the particulars of Roswell, but here's my opinion: I was obsessed with that show for a while. Even at the height of my obsession, I never thought it was great sci-fi, it just wasn't particularly clever or consistent when it tried to be. I think inventing the war/cloned from deposed leaders concept was the worst thing that happened to the show ... it worked for the end of S1, but then they were not prepared to come back in S2 and properly follow through. But by then it was too late and the show was stuck along a path they shouldn't have taken.

By S3 I was just got tired of the show, frustrated with the stupid choices the writers were making ... turning Max into some sort of bad boy, Isabel getting married, Maria breaking up with Michael. I think the show concept had a lot of potential that was never properly explored.

The best thing that came out of my Roswell obsession was that it led me to Buffy, when Space was airing the two back to back.

It's funny too that we're also having this Stargate vs. Roswell argument, because I think both are weak shows, but for opposite reasons: Roswell was full of angst and human drama, but weak on the sci-fi side, which was almost irrelevant to some plots. Stargate, again IMHO, is a far stronger sci-fi show than Roswell (though by no means the best sci-fi I've ever seen), but really lacking in human drama.

Case in point: I recently saw the end of S6, where they destroyed Abydos. Destroyed Abydos. Sure, the people living there all "ascended", which to me was some sort of cop out to take all meaning away from the horrible thing that just happened. And nobody ever shed a tear, or mentioned it again the next season.

Cryostar

What, you want us to shed a tear for a whole planet being destroyed?

Subject

Thank you.

Oh, I know. Stargazers were only brought into the discussion because of the talk about Jesse. I loved Alex and Isabel. I don't really participate in the shipper thread though. So I don't know if you can call me a Stargazer... I really loved every couple or potential couple of the show at one point or another.

Alex had so much potential that was very really appreciated. I think it would have made more of an impact to have killed Maria off if anyone. Don't get me wrong, I loved Maria but she was the one connected more. Liz's best friend, Michael's girlfriend, and Alex's best friend. Even her and Max were brought closer together. If she was to die it would have made for a greater emotional impact on fans. At least I believe that.

Thank you for answering my question.

I can write the human drama off as the military involvment. The thing I love about Stargate is that it gives more of a present/realistic look with regards to diplomacy.

I came in kind of late with regards to Stargate. So I haven't seen the episode that your talking about.

Myrrhine

OK, I'm a huge Roswell fan, so I thought I'd chime in. I love discussing this show! For me, it is probably brought me the most enjoyment of any sci fi show, with the possible exception of Buffy, and even then, there were times where I looked forward to new Roswell episodes with greater anticipation than Buffy ones. For me, it was the characters, which, in spite of what I often felt was bad writing (my opinion! no one else need share it!), for me, I felt like I always knew the characters and couldn't stop caring about them.

I can see two sides of the whole should the podsquad have returned to Antar to fight question. On the one hand, it seems to me like when they introduced that storyline, they should have followed through by having the podsquad actually return to Antar or having the full blown war come to them on earth. Obviously, neither option really fit in perfectly with the show, so that makes me question if it was the best idea to present that storyline. Again, that's just my reaction to the story. On the other hand, I don't really blame the podsquad characters for not pursuing this battle. While I found their mother's appeal compelling, they are completely unequipped for this battle. COMPLETELY. They were overpowered by 30 skins (until Tess discovered her Firepower). What hope do they have against entire armies? Over all, it seemed they were not as powerful as many of the aliens they encountered. And, before long, they lost Tess, who had the most destructive power we saw, and they lost the granilith, which was apparently a powerful weapon. In my mind, they should have tracked down Ava, tried to develop a serious defense, and perhaps also some girl named Serena who sounded pretty helpful. (Sometimes, I pretend they did just that after the end of the series.) And that's all just to protect themselves in case their enemies showed up like FMax predicted. But as it is, after season 2, I don't think they could possibly go on the offensive against Kivar et al. So I don't blame them for that.

Now on to Jesse. I didn't really like him. I was never a big fan of Alex and I didn't care about Alex/Isabel, although it seemed like a nice enough ship to me. And I felt a bit sad when Alex died. He was nice. All that to say, I didn't really have a big stake in Isabel moving on to a new guy. BUT I did feel that going from mourning your dead boyfriend (sort of boyfriend?) to married in six months was a bit abrupt, and I would have liked to see the story develop more slowly. In my opinion that would have been better. Also, I didn't like Jesse because I didn't get to see Isabel fall in love with him. I just showed up for season three and there they were. I think if I could have seen them grow closer, seen her start to care for him, I would have liked him better. Also, I never saw what they liked about each other. Beyond both being reasonably attractive and reasonably nice.

Just my thoughts.

AlexEvans

I know I've always been different. With Roswell, I finally had a character onscreen who was something like me - and who dated my dreamgirl. Sure, Dreamers and Candies are more numerous. Not only as far as Roswell fans, but as far as getting similar ships on all sorts of shows. What Roswell had was different - in fact, unique - which is why the loss was so devastating. Particularly given the complete and utter nonsense of the offscreen breakup (after they were the only couple to weather "Destiny" !!!) and the introduction of Grant at the beginning of the season. It was always ridiculous and completely out of character to have Isabel dating older guys. She avoids getting close to people (not that she was ever that close to Grant or even the Interloper) who she doesn't completely trust - and that circle was very limited. Her parents who she would have told if not for Max, the other two aliens (although they lost her trust at the end of S2), and the four humans, most of all Alex.

So yeah, something else - anything else - would have been better. Kill Liz, who'd already had tons of screen and plot time, have max marry Jesse. Max marrying Jesse would actually have been far more in character - he's the one who likes rushing a relationship.

Myrrhine makes a good point regarding fighting Kivar. They never had a chance. Besides which, I never believed that Tess wiped out the Skins. Even at the time the episode aired, I figured she'd just driven them off, that if Nicholas survived probably most of the rest did too. Given the info we get later, that's even more likely.

As far as any sort of war plotline, preparing to stop Kivar from adding Earth to his conquests would have made the most sense, and was hinted at in EOTW. And they'd need their human friends - including Alex who saved the whole group a couple times - to do that. Instead, they let Tess steal their most powerful weapon and ignore the fact that they are vastly weaker in the new timeline than in the old one.

In Season 3 it should have been "we need to recover the Granolith and we need to use it to bring back Alex or we can't even put up a decent fight" not "we're merrily ignoring the fact that the world is doomed, those of us who are even in on that fact, and getting on with ruining our lives and/or the lives of everyone around us."



PS Bitter? That doesn't even begin to describe it. Maybe we should discuss S1 sometime soon, though.

sum1

AlexEvans: PM.

Subject

I can't stand by a leader who would give up on his people no matter what the odds. The only time when hope or every chance is gone, is when you choose to give up. At least, that's what I believe.


I just thought of something... What if the Granolith was also how the hybrids were created in the first place? They sent it with the Four also in order to protect the tech that created them. They could have found out that maybe Alex had the rare gene. (I'm not sure about that considering I don't remember a lot about the crystals or the rare gene) They could have somehow used the Granolith along with Michael's alien dna and Alex human rare gene dnd to create a hybrid of Alex. Still using Colin as the actor and making Alex part of Isabel's destiny. Considering that Alex would then have part of her betrothed's(sp?) dna.

Kathy W

Hello to another huge Roswell fan!

I don't blame them either, Myrrhine. I love the royalty storyline, and I would have loved to see it pursued......but I don't blame the pod squad for pulling away. They had few if any memories of Antar. Earth was all they'd ever known. I can't expect them to feel loyalty or responsibility for a place and people they can't even remember, and who, from their perspective, have only now just entered their lives. I can promise you that if someone showed up on my doorstep and announced I really belonged to some other world and expected me to drop everything--my husband, my kids, my life--to come back and save people I knew nothing about and didn't remember....well, hell, I'd resist. I'd resist big time. I don't fault the pod squad for resisting either. They had a lot dumped in their laps in a very short period of time. It makes sense that it will take time for them to work through that. And who knows? Given time, they may show an interest in their former world after all.

On top of everything else, as you point out, they were ill-equipped to take on the role of Antar's saviors. How can someone lead a people when they know absolutely nothing about them? I've always felt that the "come back and save us" would only have worked if the hybrids were born with or regained their memories of their former selves and former home, and I've always wondered if something went wrong with the process and prevented that.

It's also worth noting that the people were talking about here are teenagers. That simple fact often gets lost in the shuffle. Most adults I know, myself included, would have a difficult time handling a situation like this--expecting a group of kids to handle it flawlessly is unrealistic.

Myrrhine

AlexEvans, Thanks for expounding on your appreciation of A/I. I can see why the ship is engaging to many fans. I never understood the whole "Alex and Isabel are on hold suddenly but now Isabel is insta-attracted to Grant." Who was not that hot. (IMHO) I would love to think that all her interest in him was completely faked to investigate him, but since her face lit up like a Christmas tree the first time she looked at him, I don't feel like I can chalk it up to that.

Subject, That woudl be a really cool way to get Alex back on the show. I have read some fascinating AU fic dealing with different ways of bringing him back to the story. I also think it would have been cool if Kivar had approached Isabel as Alex; another way to keep Colin Hanks on the show, but probably very heartbreaking to fans!

Thanks for the welcome, Kathy W! You explained the obstacles facing the podsquad very eloquently. It's also interesting to consider their ages here. You're right! They're not adults. They can't even buy cigarettes (well, for most of the series) but they are called upon to make decisions about the fate of 5 planets. And their friends lives. Also, I think it's interesting that they are, in a way, about 11-12 years old. They've only been "awake" or "hatched" for that long. They only have about a decade of experience. I am sure plenty of things from the first six years of my life really affected who I am now, but they don't have that at all. Of course, I know they hatched already knowing somethings (they could walk, recognize other people, run away if they were afraid, etc.), but they don't have the experience of being a really small kid and growing up. And when you're sixteen or seventeen, six years is a significant percentage of your life.

AlexEvans

Grant was someone she would never, ever be tempted to involve in any alien stuff. That was his attraction. (Unfortunately, his digging would twice involve him in alien stuff, the second time to his death.) Even so, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I don't think having Isabel suddenly attracted to older men has any reason for it other than some producer or writer's perverted fantasies. And it's noteworthy that Alex and Isabel's relationship was so well-established by the end of season 1 that when they decided to go for the angst in season 2, they had to have them break-up offscreen beween seasons. They couldn't think of a way for it to happen!

There are any number of ways they could have kept Alex, or brought him back (enough so that credibility was stretched further and further every episode it didn't happen).

Personally, I prefer relationships that are in defiance of their pre-planned "destinies."

As far as leaders... they never accepted a leadership role or obligation. It isn't a betrayal to not go to Antar, because they never made a commitment. An argument might be made that Max made such a commitment when he began exercising his royal authority, but he didn't know what he was getting into. The obstacles are overwhelming, and as Kathy says they are teenagers.

hotpop

Well, I think everyone has watched at least once this serie, right?
It's one of the most famous and interesting serie ever!...
And I saw that the 3rd, the final season, is coming out next week on August 9th.

Ahhhh...I used to love this engaging drama of three teenage aliens struggling to find their purpose and identity on earth.
I'll get it to complete my collection...It comes with five discs, loaded with lots of bonus material.

Here's a media player with more info about the serie and its dvd
http://roswellseasonthree.fanmatrix.net/?C1294,183257

Anybody else here is a fan of Roswell????

Kathy W

Big fan of Roswell right here! And I just got my S3 DVD's, so I'll be busy for awhile.

AlexEvans

I'm a huge fan of Roswell (hence the screenname) but I don't think I'll bother buying the alleged third season. I might for fanfic purposes, but I can't seem to write anyway. I'd rather just watch the good stuff again.