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#46 | |||
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I don't understand how people can ship Max/Liz and then ship Buffy/Spike. I understand why people like Max/Liz, like I said I used to like them in season 1. However mixing the two couples seems strange to me. With the nature on how different the two couples are/were. As you probably guess, I don't like B/S but not because they "disgust" me or anything. Or because I like B/A. It's just I didn't like what it did to them as indivduals. Especially with Spike, I like Spike by himself or with Dru. It would be ok for him to have a flunky girlfriend like Harm everyone once and a while though. Like when Spike went on Angel (the show) it was wonderful. Quote:
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#47 | |||
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As for Spike and Harmony, I wasn't keen on that. And I didn't like how they handeled him in season 5 of Angel, I felt they totally mismanaged the character. I haaaaate Angel season 5. But Spike/Dru was great. But I think ultimately Buffy brought out the best in Spike (see Touched, for example). I'll say something important here: Please don't pursue the Spike/spuffy/B/A topic with me, or things here could get nasty. I'm VERY touchy on that. So I'll ask you to just drop that topic. No offence meant, just saying that so we can avoid trouble. As for Liz/Max, I like Liz and I like Max with reservations and I think they were good together. And while I feel Max/Liz often overdid the whole sappy romance thing, I feel it had something very real in its core and I think it had much that was done very well. I feel it contributed a lot to the show. As opposed to Max/Tess, which just made me sick. And Max sleeping with Alex's murderer after Alex's death? ...you get the picture. But In later season 2, I wanted Liz to hook up with Sean for real, not just using him as a back-up. I felt if she gave him a real chance he'd be better for her than Max. I've also speculated on Liz/Michael and wondered how that might have worked out, seeing as they're my two favorite Roswell characters. But that doesn't mean I was ok with Max being with Tess. I wanted Tess dead, very dead. And if Liz wasn't going to be with Sean or Michael, I was quite ok with her being with Max. Quote:
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Last edited by sum1; 10-11-2004 at 05:38 PM |
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#48 | ||||
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My point of the doubled standard is that when a girl who is with a guy, goes after another guy or has another guy after her most people have no problem with it. However when a guy does the same thing. That other girl is considered to be "bad" or "evil". I'm not saying that is your view since you seem not like Liz/Max that much. Or would really prefer her with someone else. I'm just saying that is a classic double standard. Quote:
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#49 | |||
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And as for your view that Max would have responded well to her pushing, I don't necessarily buy that. No matter what he said. He was downright flaky in season 2 and I'm sure Tess could see that. She knew her situation with Max was delicate and complicated and I felt she was playing it carefully. Quote:
But there's plenty double standards against either gender to be found and it's a whole topic of its own which I don't think this is the place for. And I like Liz/Max plenty well enough, just I amn't as sold on it as I am on spuffy. Anyway, I don't think people's anti-Tess feelings are just about her coming between Liz and Max. It might be easy to stereotype them that way, but I think there's always been plenty of other reasons to dislike her. And the fact that she kinda gatecrashed the Roswell in-group undoubtably got a lot of people against her too. Personally, I resented her being added in and felt she didn't belong, no matter what the story said. I never felt she really fitted in and she never seemed to me somebody deserving of trust or acceptance. And messing with people's minds certainly doesn't go down well with me. Plus, I don't like Emelie DeRavin's performance. Quote:
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#50 | |||||
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#51 | |||||
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Anyway, people were right to attack you, you being a Tess fan and Max/Tess shipper, which is eeeeevil. __________________
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#52 | |||||
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#53 | ||||
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The difference is that the hatred of Jesse is a more extreme and less understandable thing, because he was no threat the Alex/Isabel ship. While Tess was very much a threat to Max/Liz, making it easier to understand why a lot of Max/Liz shippers would have issues with her. Those Max/Liz shippers were afraid Tess was going to take Max from Liz and destroy their ship, which is kinda what happened, for a while at least. But Jesse was in no way likely to destroy Alex/Isabel, because it was already over and gone beyond repair. The hatred toward Tess was over her being an actual threat, the hatred toward Jesse was over him just not being Alex. He didn't do anything to Alex/Isabel and didn't threaten it, just had the misfortune of coming along later into what shippers saw as Alex's territory, as if Isabel shouldn't be allowed to get involved with anybody ever again after Alex. So the difference here is that the anti-Jesse feelings are the more unreasonable ones. Quote:
And being a Max/Liz shipper and a Tess hater doesn't mean one's Tess hatred is founded foremost on her threat to Max/Liz. She provided reasons for disliking her even bEFORE she was shown to be a clear threat to Max/Liz. And I think that's where a lot of people's dislike of her started. And after that (from then on down to the end of season 2), she provided plenty more reason for people to dislike her, plenty reason OTHER than her threat to Max/Liz. Personally, I'd hate her even if Max/Liz had never existed. And even if a Max/Liz fan SAYS their primary reason for hating Tess was her threat to their ship, it doesn't make it so. I find it's fashionable for fans to make a big fuss of hating characters who threaten their favorite ships. And that can mean not sufficiently voicing other reasons they might have for hating the characters in question. People can get enough into the mentality to confuse even themselves over their motivations. When you get into fan motivations (in any topic), the truth is often a lot more complex than people make it out to be. We fans are complex people. __________________
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Last edited by sum1; 10-12-2004 at 10:37 AM |
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#54 | |||
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I never wanted Tess to be with Max. But even back when I was still partly a Dreamer (pre-EOTW) I never wanted Tess off the show. She was at times a very interesting character, and had the potential to have continued to be interesting whether as villain or hero (potential I don't feel was lived up to in the end of S2, due to enormous inconsistencies in her motivations and her powers).
Jesse I wanted off the show. He wasn't just messing with a girl I wanted to be with someone else. He disgusted me. More than that, he bored me. When he was nasty, he was nasty in a boring way. When he was nice, he was nice in a boring way. When he was scary... wait, never happened. When he was funny... oh yeah, that never happened either. And Buffy is on now and the other points I was going to make I'll make separately. |
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#55 | |||
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Brian, have I ever told you you're totally deluded? __________________
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#56 | ||||||||
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We both both ship much hated couples. It's only on the shows that we really differ. We are like two sides of the same coin my friend. Quote:
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Also, I realize that not all M/L are Tess haters. Just like how not all Rebels or Dreamers really like Max. |
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#57 | ||||||
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So no, I don't think it necessarily makes it so just because they say so. Particularly considering how fashionable it is for fans to make a big show of hating characters who threaten their favorite ships. Less fashionable, less stereotypical, reasons for hating a character can fall between the cracks. Quote:
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#58 | |||
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I don't think character hatred is based entirely on threat to couples. There's that; it's reasonable to dislike a character whose presence threatens something you enjoy. Tess constantly interrupting Alex and Isabel really bugged me. Yes, Gazers wanted Alex back. The show had time travel. The show had far less interesting characters coming back from the dead without waiting their turn. There's nothing wrong with that either.
But it is wrong to pretend that that was the whole story. We didn't think that the Interloper was right for Isabel. He didn't treat her right. He was too old. He didn't appreciate her alienness. He didn't fit at all with the group as a whole. It would have been different if instead of the Interloper, it had been a different character. Someone decent who treated Isabel properly, and who was younger. We might not have been happy - but we wouldn't have been nearly so outraged. It would also have been different if it had been another show. Roswell implied promises other shows didn't make. Roswell was built in large part around three human-alien couples. Gazers tolerated coming last in screentime, we tolerated nonsensical interruptions, and then we lost everything. It was a real betrayal. It was one that shows such as Buffy avoided by making the opposite - ever-changing relationships - clear from the start. (I still hate that they killed Tara. I think it was a horrible decision.) It would have been different if it had been handled better. If there hadn't been an onscreen break-up, a pointless and out-of-character relationship with a stupid old guy, if Alex and Isabel had been back together longer before the end. If they hadn't put horrible comments into the mouths of Isabel and Kyle, vicious and completely unnecessary attacks on the show's fans. It would even have been different if anything else in S3 had been done well. If we could have enjoyed the ohter characters or couples - but they were destroyed too. If there had been interesting plotlines - there weren't. If the show had been funny, or exciting, or had any interesting science fiction, or if it had done anything with the return of Tess, or with Isabel and Max's parents finally being told the truth - but it fell short in every single one of those criteria. We had nothing good onscreen we could have attempted to direct our attention to. Sum1, you argue that Roswell was better than other shows. It was, once. But then it fell, and the heights it had once attained only made it worse. Roswell became worse than anything else on TV. It betrayed its premise, its characters, and its fans. Criticisms about S3 aren't nitpicking about a great show making mistakes. They're complaints about a once-great show becoming a mistake, one massive hole of plot discontinuities, character inconsistencies and bad ideas. |
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#59 | |||
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#60 | ||||||
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She asked to sit with Isabel/Alex. Isabel said sure. The started talking and found they had some things in common. Then Tess overheard a conversation of Michael/Max. She said "How do you know women so well? Don't let me stop you. This is fascinating." Isabel introduced her as a friend. Michael was rude, and then Tess intorduced herself. Said "Nice to meet you" With clear intentions of looking at Max and basicaly talking to him. Boom, you could see that she was attracted to him. (First girl interested in Max other then Liz) Then she and Isabel have a girl's night planned. I can understand why Stargazers wouldn't like her at first either. Because she interupted Alex/Isabel twice. However, that was also due to the part that Isabel almost wanted her too. In order to avoid talking about things with Alex. That was the begining. Can you explain to me the reason's for disliking her? I can understand not trusting her because she was a new character. No one knew if she was another FBI plant. I can understand not liking that typ of personality. However, the amount of dislike/hate that was generated....well... Quote:
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Brian -Can I call you Brian? I wanted to say that last paragraph was very well said. I also agree that I don't think character hatred is based entirely on threat to couples. However, the primary reason is usually because of the threat to a couple. Especially in a teen show. Last edited by Subject; 10-14-2004 at 01:21 AM |
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