Subject

There is one thing that doesn't work with that. She had the chance to influence Max to give Kivar the granalith and return home with them. She didn't do that.

You bring up something here that I want to address. I'm not sure this is the right place for it but....

I don't understand how people can ship Max/Liz and then ship Buffy/Spike. I understand why people like Max/Liz, like I said I used to like them in season 1. However mixing the two couples seems strange to me. With the nature on how different the two couples are/were. As you probably guess, I don't like B/S but not because they "disgust" me or anything. Or because I like B/A. It's just I didn't like what it did to them as indivduals. Especially with Spike, I like Spike by himself or with Dru. It would be ok for him to have a flunky girlfriend like Harm everyone once and a while though. Like when Spike went on Angel (the show) it was wonderful.


I know... same goes with my thoughts on the issue. I just couldn't not say anything. You know? Sometimes you just have to post..

sum1

She wanted to conceive the kid first. And her influence with Max only went so far. There was still room for difficulty if she stepped wrong (and let's remember, Max was getting pretty flaky in season 2). If she pushed it and he didn't like that, it might damage her future influence with him and thus her whole plan.
See, I don't see spuffy as just being bad for Buffy and Spike. In season 6 it was bad for them, but I also feel it was good for them then too. And in season 7 I feel it did good for them and not bad. And I like both characters and how they interact and the chemistry the actors had. And I feel it's the only worthwhile relationship Buffy ever had and that Spike is the only guy she's been with who was worthy of her. And I think they had some great story.

As for Spike and Harmony, I wasn't keen on that. And I didn't like how they handeled him in season 5 of Angel, I felt they totally mismanaged the character. I haaaaate Angel season 5. But Spike/Dru was great. But I think ultimately Buffy brought out the best in Spike (see Touched, for example).

I'll say something important here: Please don't pursue the Spike/spuffy/B/A topic with me, or things here could get nasty. I'm VERY touchy on that. So I'll ask you to just drop that topic. No offence meant, just saying that so we can avoid trouble.

As for Liz/Max, I like Liz and I like Max with reservations and I think they were good together. And while I feel Max/Liz often overdid the whole sappy romance thing, I feel it had something very real in its core and I think it had much that was done very well. I feel it contributed a lot to the show. As opposed to Max/Tess, which just made me sick. And Max sleeping with Alex's murderer after Alex's death? ...you get the picture.

But In later season 2, I wanted Liz to hook up with Sean for real, not just using him as a back-up. I felt if she gave him a real chance he'd be better for her than Max. I've also speculated on Liz/Michael and wondered how that might have worked out, seeing as they're my two favorite Roswell characters. But that doesn't mean I was ok with Max being with Tess. I wanted Tess dead, very dead. And if Liz wasn't going to be with Sean or Michael, I was quite ok with her being with Max.
If I took that approach, I'd have been banned long ago. I've learnt that sometimes there's no point in saying anything and sometimes it's wisest to say nothing. I say only a fraction of what I feel like saying. And what I say is often a lot more moderate than what I feel like saying.

Subject

Max was asking for her input. He told her, he knows nothing about being a king. If Tess was going with a "deal" then she could have pushed it so that all things went in Kivar's favor. I don't think Max would have questioned her intentions. Tess has stated on numerous occassions before that she wanted to be back on Antar or at least implied it. She told Max against the thought or made it so he would have to make up his own mind. She was being loyal to him. She always has been. More then any other character. That's why the idea of her being evil sounds seems to come from no where.

I didn't mean to bring up a talk about Spuffy vs. ?. I was just wondering why you shipped too very different couples. I didn't mean anything hostile by it. However, I'll just drop the question.

I understand it more from your point. Considering that Liz is one of your fav. characters.

My point of the doubled standard is that when a girl who is with a guy, goes after another guy or has another guy after her most people have no problem with it. However when a guy does the same thing. That other girl is considered to be "bad" or "evil".

I'm not saying that is your view since you seem not like Liz/Max that much. Or would really prefer her with someone else. I'm just saying that is a classic double standard.

There is always time to speak out against something you disagree with. As long as people show respect other people not resort to bashing no real harm can come of it. Only a good debate or discussion. Of course you wouldn't do that in an appreciation or unappreciation thread because that would be disrespectful of the people who go there to talk about their subject without a debate about it.

sum1

Sorry, I see no proof she was always more loyal to Max than any other character. And she didn't want to go back and give up the other three to Kivar until her child was conceived. No matter what she said, because it would have screwed up her plans. No, I don't see Tess being loyal, I see Tess being manipulative and calculating and playing her part carefully. And I don't see any reason to take her at her word on anything. And her being evil sure doesn't seem to come out of nowhere the way I see it.

And as for your view that Max would have responded well to her pushing, I don't necessarily buy that. No matter what he said. He was downright flaky in season 2 and I'm sure Tess could see that. She knew her situation with Max was delicate and complicated and I felt she was playing it carefully.
Sounds to me like you haven't looked close enough at BTVS fandom, or you'd see how B/Aers and spuffies feel about Riley, how B/Aers feel about Spike and how spuffies feel about Angel. But then one doesn't need shipper bias to hate Angel's guts, he sucks to the max (and that's "max", not "Max" ). And then there's the widespread anti-Jesse hatred in Roswell fandom, despite the fact that Alex was long dead by the time he came along.

But there's plenty double standards against either gender to be found and it's a whole topic of its own which I don't think this is the place for.

And I like Liz/Max plenty well enough, just I amn't as sold on it as I am on spuffy.

Anyway, I don't think people's anti-Tess feelings are just about her coming between Liz and Max. It might be easy to stereotype them that way, but I think there's always been plenty of other reasons to dislike her. And the fact that she kinda gatecrashed the Roswell in-group undoubtably got a lot of people against her too. Personally, I resented her being added in and felt she didn't belong, no matter what the story said. I never felt she really fitted in and she never seemed to me somebody deserving of trust or acceptance. And messing with people's minds certainly doesn't go down well with me. Plus, I don't like Emelie DeRavin's performance.
In theory maybe, not necessarily in practice. Things can get out of hand a lot easier than you seem to think. I've learned that the hard way.

Subject

She was the only one of the character to stick up for Max, defend him, and trust in him more then anyone. I consider that to be loyalty. As for screwing up her plans. How could that have screwed it up if she was in a deal? The granalith would have added to the deal that she had with Kivar if anything. They could have made a baby through methods on Antar. I mean if they can clone someone and send them to Earth mixed with human dna, I think they could have mixed their cells to create an heir to the throne there as well.

She knew that she didn't want to push him away because she loved him. She didn't want to have him go running off to Liz again. Which is why the moment opened up for her and Max to return the their couple when he thought she slept with Kyle and she took it. Not because of some deal but because she wanted to be with him. She loved him.

I don't really go to the BTVS board that much. I usually lurk on ocassion. As for Jesse, he was hated for other reasons. To say that he posed a threat to Isabel/Alex is just wrong. As Alex was dead and therefore couldn't be in the "battle". I think that people resented the fact that he came in and "took over" Alex's place.

I'm not trying to "sterotype" things. It's a well known fact that the reason Tess was hated the most is because she posed a threat to the Max/Liz relationship.

Believe me, I know how things can get out of hand. I was attacked along with others many times on the Roswell board back when it was in full force. Things were insane on that board. Much like the One Tree Hill board now. Or so I've heard. As long as people treat others with respect things won't get out of hand. Everyone can enjoy the debate/discussion.

sum1

That wasn't the deal. And things with the likes of Kivar are going to be shaky enough, playing with the deal would have been risky.
So you seem to believe. I never saw any love onscreen. Far as I'm concerned, she was just playing her part and doing what she thought was best for her plan. She latched onto Max and used him.
Same difference, far as I'm concerned. He was resented because he was with "Alex's girl" and wasn't Alex.
Well known fact? No, well-known simplification, I think.
I don't think it's that reliable.

Anyway, people were right to attack you, you being a Tess fan and Max/Tess shipper, which is eeeeevil.

Subject

I don't see how offering Kivar the other item that he wanted most as compromising this "deal". If anything it would put him more in Tess' favor if she was doing the deal with Kivar and Nasedo.

There was love there. Perhaps you were so blinded by it you couldn't see it.

There is a difference between someone being hated for being with someone. And someone being hated for wanting to be with someone.

Well, well known enough for the majority of Tess haters. Not just from this site though. From a lot of things that I have read and heard from people.

sum1

I don't agree. If she went back before she had the kid conceived, she'd be playing around with the deal, all too risky a thing to do with Kivar. The way I see it, any change whatsoever to a deal like that with a guy like that risks endangering the deal. With Nasedo dead, things were already a tad different, changing things more wouldn't have been a great idea. And Tess always struck me as the careful sort as regards her plans and machinations.
I think more likely you saw it because you wanted to see it. It wasn't there. The original Ava may have loved the original Zan, but Tess and Max WEREN'T precisely those people, no matter how much Tess remembered. They were different people, their own people with their own feelings. And I watched Tess carefully and saw no evidence of real love.
There's a difference between Jesse being hated for being with Isabel after Alex was dead (with Jesse thus never threatening Alex/Isabel) and Tess being hated for wanting to be with Max while Liz was very much still around (Tess thus being very much a threat to Max/Liz).

The difference is that the hatred of Jesse is a more extreme and less understandable thing, because he was no threat the Alex/Isabel ship. While Tess was very much a threat to Max/Liz, making it easier to understand why a lot of Max/Liz shippers would have issues with her. Those Max/Liz shippers were afraid Tess was going to take Max from Liz and destroy their ship, which is kinda what happened, for a while at least. But Jesse was in no way likely to destroy Alex/Isabel, because it was already over and gone beyond repair.

The hatred toward Tess was over her being an actual threat, the hatred toward Jesse was over him just not being Alex. He didn't do anything to Alex/Isabel and didn't threaten it, just had the misfortune of coming along later into what shippers saw as Alex's territory, as if Isabel shouldn't be allowed to get involved with anybody ever again after Alex. So the difference here is that the anti-Jesse feelings are the more unreasonable ones.
I'm familiar enough with the ways of fandom to know that a lot things that are "well known" about various groups of fans are actually stereotypes or simplifications, at best. As a spuffy, I'm very much in position to know that -you should hear some of the things that are "well known" about us. So you'll have to excuse me if I don't buy your simplification. Sure, plenty of Max/Liz shippers (I HATE stupid names like "Dreamers") hate Tess over the threat she posed to Max/Liz, but there's plenty other reasons to hate Tess and not all Tess haters are Max/Liz shippers.

And being a Max/Liz shipper and a Tess hater doesn't mean one's Tess hatred is founded foremost on her threat to Max/Liz. She provided reasons for disliking her even bEFORE she was shown to be a clear threat to Max/Liz. And I think that's where a lot of people's dislike of her started. And after that (from then on down to the end of season 2), she provided plenty more reason for people to dislike her, plenty
reason OTHER than her threat to Max/Liz. Personally, I'd hate her even if Max/Liz had never existed.

And even if a Max/Liz fan SAYS their primary reason for hating Tess was her threat to their ship, it doesn't make it so. I find it's fashionable for fans to make a big fuss of hating characters who threaten their favorite ships. And that can mean not sufficiently voicing other reasons they might have for hating the characters in question. People can get enough into the mentality to confuse even themselves over their motivations. When you get into fan motivations (in any topic), the truth is often a lot more complex than people make it out to be. We fans are complex people.

AlexEvans

I never wanted Tess to be with Max. But even back when I was still partly a Dreamer (pre-EOTW) I never wanted Tess off the show. She was at times a very interesting character, and had the potential to have continued to be interesting whether as villain or hero (potential I don't feel was lived up to in the end of S2, due to enormous inconsistencies in her motivations and her powers).

Jesse I wanted off the show. He wasn't just messing with a girl I wanted to be with someone else. He disgusted me. More than that, he bored me. When he was nasty, he was nasty in a boring way. When he was nice, he was nice in a boring way. When he was scary... wait, never happened. When he was funny... oh yeah, that never happened either.

And Buffy is on now and the other points I was going to make I'll make separately.

sum1

Brian, have I ever told you you're totally deluded?

Subject

Atleast you consider Tess to be smart or "careful". Thats a plus in my book.

I think more likely that you didn't see it because you didn't want to see it. It was there. I watched Tess very carefully as well.

As a rebel, I am very much in a similar postion to know that you should hear some of the things that are "well known" about us.

We both both ship much hated couples. It's only on the shows that we really differ. We are like two sides of the same coin my friend.


Not for everyone no. However, most hatred I believe was founded on that alone.

Since the moment Tess first showed up on screen she posed a threat to Max/Liz. So, I don't see how you can really say that. Tess was the first girl to show interest in Max besides Liz.

Oh, I believe that.

Actually, it would make it so. Those other reasons would all be secondary to their dislike of Tess. Besides, I take what people say as the truth. Especially if it is about their feelings towards something. Because who would know better how they feel then themselves?

Yes, we fans are.

Also, I realize that not all M/L are Tess haters. Just like how not all Rebels or Dreamers really like Max.

sum1

I very much doubt that. I was actually LOOKING for positive in Tess, trying to find SOMETHING worthwhile or likable in her. Love for Max? It wasn't there.
Except your ship is evil.
"Alone"? Wow, I think that's a DEFINITE example of a simplification.
Not so clearly as a little while later. And from the beginning she provided plenty reason to dislike her other than her threat to Max/Liz.
Certainly not necessarily themselves. People often aren't aware of their real feelings and motivations and can also fool or confuse themselves, etc. While sometimes other people can see it better from the outside. Well established principle of human nature. And one of the reasons I'm massively into painstaking and merciless self-examination, something which most people quite simply arent.

So no, I don't think it necessarily makes it so just because they say so. Particularly considering how fashionable it is for fans to make a big show of hating characters who threaten their favorite ships. Less fashionable, less stereotypical, reasons for hating a character can fall between the cracks.
I think it makes zero sense to ship a character one doesn't like.

AlexEvans

I don't think character hatred is based entirely on threat to couples. There's that; it's reasonable to dislike a character whose presence threatens something you enjoy. Tess constantly interrupting Alex and Isabel really bugged me. Yes, Gazers wanted Alex back. The show had time travel. The show had far less interesting characters coming back from the dead without waiting their turn. There's nothing wrong with that either.

But it is wrong to pretend that that was the whole story. We didn't think that the Interloper was right for Isabel. He didn't treat her right. He was too old. He didn't appreciate her alienness. He didn't fit at all with the group as a whole. It would have been different if instead of the Interloper, it had been a different character. Someone decent who treated Isabel properly, and who was younger. We might not have been happy - but we wouldn't have been nearly so outraged.

It would also have been different if it had been another show. Roswell implied promises other shows didn't make. Roswell was built in large part around three human-alien couples. Gazers tolerated coming last in screentime, we tolerated nonsensical interruptions, and then we lost everything. It was a real betrayal. It was one that shows such as Buffy avoided by making the opposite - ever-changing relationships - clear from the start. (I still hate that they killed Tara. I think it was a horrible decision.)

It would have been different if it had been handled better. If there hadn't been an onscreen break-up, a pointless and out-of-character relationship with a stupid old guy, if Alex and Isabel had been back together longer before the end. If they hadn't put horrible comments into the mouths of Isabel and Kyle, vicious and completely unnecessary attacks on the show's fans.

It would even have been different if anything else in S3 had been done well. If we could have enjoyed the ohter characters or couples - but they were destroyed too. If there had been interesting plotlines - there weren't. If the show had been funny, or exciting, or had any interesting science fiction, or if it had done anything with the return of Tess, or with Isabel and Max's parents finally being told the truth - but it fell short in every single one of those criteria. We had nothing good onscreen we could have attempted to direct our attention to.

Sum1, you argue that Roswell was better than other shows. It was, once. But then it fell, and the heights it had once attained only made it worse. Roswell became worse than anything else on TV. It betrayed its premise, its characters, and its fans. Criticisms about S3 aren't nitpicking about a great show making mistakes. They're complaints about a once-great show becoming a mistake, one massive hole of plot discontinuities, character inconsistencies and bad ideas.

sum1

Ah Brian, what are we gonna do with you, you're entirely lost to insane delusion. Obviously, I'm going to have to lecture you on AIM again.

Subject

I always look for different things in characters. Something to like or dislike either if it be that they are "evil" or "good." To say that, "It wasn't there" As a statement is wrong. You don't believe it was there. I believe that. However, it was there in my eyes. Because, I saw it as did others. She loved him, had feelings for him of the romantic sense. Just because you did not see it doesn't mean it wasn't there.

I'm sending you a PM.

It is not a way to make things more simple. It was my interpretation from my perspective.

I don't see really any other reason. Crazy: Episode Tess was introduced."the begining" -

She asked to sit with Isabel/Alex. Isabel said sure. The started talking and found they had some things in common. Then Tess overheard a conversation of Michael/Max. She said "How do you know women so well? Don't let me stop you. This is fascinating." Isabel introduced her as a friend. Michael was rude, and then Tess intorduced herself. Said "Nice to meet you" With clear intentions of looking at Max and basicaly talking to him. Boom, you could see that she was attracted to him. (First girl interested in Max other then Liz) Then she and Isabel have a girl's night planned.

I can understand why Stargazers wouldn't like her at first either. Because she interupted Alex/Isabel twice. However, that was also due to the part that Isabel almost wanted her too. In order to avoid talking about things with Alex.

That was the begining. Can you explain to me the reason's for disliking her? I can understand not trusting her because she was a new character. No one knew if she was another FBI plant. I can understand not liking that typ of personality. However, the amount of dislike/hate that was generated....well...

I agree with he first part of that. However, the people who can see it better from the outside are often people who know that person well. Or has experienced the same type of thing. I don't know all of the Roswell fans personally. Nor do I try to believe that I can relate to all of them. Therefore it is logical to believe that how they say they feel, especially on a message board, is how they really feel.

Most hate what Max became. You yourself said that you like Max/Liz, even though you didn't really like Max.

Brian -Can I call you Brian? I wanted to say that last paragraph was very well said. I also agree that I don't think character hatred is based entirely on threat to couples. However, the primary reason is usually because of the threat to a couple. Especially in a teen show.