starryeyesxx

I love that speech too! One of the best Angel speeches imo, along with "if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do"

Ashes Fall

FS: Thanx for the explanation. I knew the girl was from a lot of money but I forgot that she was in a way an amplified BTVS Cordelia. You've very much got me interested in finishing it.

In response to the 'Dirty Girls' comment, I couldn't agree more with your assessment. I thought I was alone is NOT feeling it was out of line for the Scoobies to vote Buffy off the island after what she'd done.

Alright, enough of that. If you'd like to continue this discussion let's please take it to PM, about 97% of this thread has been off topic, admittingly by my own fault, it's a nasty habit and that needs to end now.

Admittingly, I've never rewatched season 4 and don't plan to except 'Awakening' and 'Orpheus', the only two worthwhile episodes in the season IMO (The Faith arc in which 'Orpheus' is a part of, when she's first introduced as more mature is when I first started to appreciate her and when she turns down Spike's advance in s7 of BTVS is when she officially made the sale, just since you were wondering).

I remember so little about 'Deep Down' apart from Angel's fantasies while in in the trunk, sinking in the ocean. The Thanksgiving dinner fantasy was nearly as cruel as 'Awakening'. I adored the final moment when Angel and Cordy are leaning into each other to kiss:

Cordy: "Angel, relax. It's over. Things are back the way they should be and nothing is ever going to break us apart again. (Leans closer towards Angel) And if anything tries I'm gonna have to go all glowy and personally kick it's ass."

Angel, leaning closer: "I like it when you glow."

Cordy, leaning closer still: "Well, play your cards right..."

They're close enough to kiss, smiling into each other's eyes.

Connor: "Do I have to watch this part?"

Angel reaches over to ruffle Connor's hair.

Angel: "I could poke your eyes out."

Connor, chuckling, finger combs his hair back: "Come on, dad! It'll stick up like yours."

Angel: "You should be so lucky. Let's eat!"

Another thing I really liked about it were the subtle hints that Angel had made himself human in this fantasy; his comment that he's starving and then the "Let's Eat" at the end of this dialouge. This takes us back to a conversation we had on the previous page, it makes a statement of how he viewed the Shanshu, what he wanted and perhaps before this point, what he'd expected to get out of it.
The fact that he was toasting with an empty glass could have just been a symbol of his actual situation, how his body was empty of nourishment, withering away with nothing much like in his other fantasy where the beach meeting successfully occurs but he and Cordy's kiss marking their new beginning as a couple ends in his feeding on her.

I'm afraid I don't remember that speech but it ties in beautifully with Angel's fantasies. I've always regarded Angel/Angelus to have the most powerful monologues in the franchise dating back to 'Passion'. He has the most depth of all the characters with Cordy catching up at a close second.
I believe that his beach meeting with Cordy being interfered with on top of having lost Connor might been the breaking point of his confidence in being able to be redeemed, when he was really hit with the reality that he's not supposed to be happy but the fantasies were a desperate need to hold on to the notion that he should be able to be, possibly even were a psychological defense mechanism.

One thing that has come to mind is an imagining of the scene where Wesley feeds Angel his own blood after recovering him from the ocean (that being a unique situation in which pig's blood was not strong enough) with Cordy present. I believe she would be the first "volunteer as tribute" but Angel would weakly refuse finding absolutely no justification to ever endanger her by touching a single drop of her blood along with Wes arguging that his blood was the least valuable at this time after what he'd done with Connor. Cordy of course wouldn't easily back off because while she'd feel that Wesley did owe Angel literally some of his life, she'd at this point consider him worthy of redeeming himself and wouldn't just allow him to put his entire life on the line. At the very least she'd insist they share the task.
I think that would have been a very interesting and in depth exchange.

That's all I can really say. I would have one more comment but it's off topic.

starryeyesxx

I always found that dinner scene cheesey - I was relieved it was dream, because it just didn't fit the show at all I think it showed that Angel will always be a big softy at heart though.

Ashes Fall

It's most certainly much too happy to be a reality in the Angelverse but I can be quite a big sucker for cheesiness and I adore that Angel is a this big ole softie and a sensitive romantic.

Ashes Fall

I just noticed that the alternate 'You're Welcome' ending from FS's scriptbook is referenced on the Buffy and Angel wikia and according to them it was a failed decoy to combat leakage.

"There were initially two endings penned for this episode, the real one, and another with Cordelia simply leaving rather than dying. This was an attempt to keep the real ending a secret from the spoiler leaks that occurred with most episodes. However, the real ending was leaked shortly before air, rendering the attempt unsuccessful."

Since it's published in a script book however, I'm reluctant to believe that it was never intended.

starryeyesxx

I'm not sure, I've heard of both scenarios happening tv shows before, so both seem very possibly to me - we'll probably never know the true story


[coolly delivered sadistic warning]

Ashes Fall

Blast from the past!
I love that moment, I'd forgotten that she'd pressed her cheek against him, that's so cute.

That has to be the only time he'd ever worn a jacket that wasn't black!

FuriosityShell

I love that library scene so much! I love how the pairings square off against each other. It's Buffy/Xander vs. Angel/Cordy. Buffy's jealous of Cordy, Angel's jealous of Xander, Xander making sarcastic remarks to Cordy and Angel, and Cordy's trying to play vulnerable ("I'm so fragile.") And to top it all off, Willow and Giles are looking back and forth between them like it's a tennis match.

Angel: Xander.
Xander: Angel.
Angel: (to Buffy) I thought you were taking the night off.
Buffy: I was going to. But at the last minute--
Angel: Cordelia told me the truth.

I love how Angel delivers, "Cordelia told me the truth". Like he knows Buffy's jealous so he's taking advantage and sort of using Cordy, though she doesn't seem to mind.

starryeyesxx

It is a funny scene It's too bad we didn't get to see Cordy as a cheerleader that often

& I think you're right about that being Angel's only non-black jacket!

tender looks

That library scene is one of my favourite little scenes from S2. And it was nice to see Angel in lighter clothing.

Ashes Fall

I love that exchange, I wish we'd gotten to see what happened between Angel and Cordy while he was taking her home.

starryeyesxx

I'm sure Cordelia wanted to show him how grateful she was

Ashes Fall

YES!
I can imagine her yanking on his arm trying to get him inside her house and her bedroom.

FuriosityShell

at imagining the car ride home. I remember how desperate she was to get his invitation removed in "Passion". She probably talked his ear off the whole ride home. Given her attempts at seducing him in "Spin the Bottle", it wouldn't be surprised if she invited him inside. I remember her cut line from the "I Will Remember You" script when recapping the Buffy/Angel saga to Doyle: "I was seeing someone at the time, so I guess he sort of fixated on her (Buffy)".

Ashes Fall

And I'll bet he smiled too, just like in 'Halloween'.

Wait, she pretended that Angel had been into her and Buffy was just the supplement because she'd rejected him!? Oh Cordy! That's our girl!