Ashes Fall

Agreed, the pain in his face is so raw.

starryeyesxx

It was, you could tell why he didn't talk about it much

Ashes Fall

True, I always assumed that he never mentioned Cordy in the many perfect opportunities to because Joss was still being an ass about Charisma getting pregnant in the 4th season but you are right, it could also have been because it was too painful for him.

FuriosityShell once told me that in the ATF comics Wesley mentions that Angel can't bear to even speak her name.

FuriosityShell

Whenever Joss did write an episode in S5, Cordy was always mentioned: "Conviction" (when Harmony asks about her), "A Hole in the World" ("I lost Cordy") and "Not Fade Away" (Hamilton mentions her), so I don't think that he went out of his way to make sure she wasn't mentioned, so much as they just lazily or ignorantly didn't pay tribute to her. It still doesn't excuse how many times she WASN'T mentioned and the fact that her death was ignored in the following episode, nor does it excuse the ridiculously unprofessional way he let Charisma go (she didn't know she wasn't coming back for S5 because no one from the show called her to tell her; she found out from the press AFTER production had begun).

Joss actually didn't want Cordy back in the comics unless it was for a really good reason because he was so satisfied with "You're Welcome" and the way she went out, but Brian Lynch (the writer of After the Fall) put her in there anyway because he felt she had to be there and he wanted to write an Angel/Cordelia scene. The thing I love about their brief reunion in the comics is that it pays tribute to their friendship as well as their romance. One of the reasons Cangel was unpopular (at least back in the days of the show, it seems pretty popular now) was because people felt Angel and Cordelia had such a great friendship that a romance would ruin it. So even though Cangel the romance didn't get a lot of respect back in the day, Cangel the friendship did because I always see people praise Angel and Cordy's friendship. It's been a few months since I last read the ATF comics, but I do recall Angel finally telling her he loves her. Lynch was a huge Cordy fan. ATF pays better respect to her than S5 did. Not only do you get her brief reunion with Angel, but like I said, Wesley saying Angel couldn't bear to say her name, the knowledge that he hallucinated her to get through the pain of his injuries, Connor acknowledges how wrong his relationship with her was and says that she was really like his mother and you get the badass Cordelia dragon!

starryeyesxx

I haven't heard about that part of the comics - I assume that she left again? From what I knew, she's a higher being now. It kinda irks me that it kinda sounds like Connor had to apologize for the thing with Cordy, in my mind he was the victim of a monster just like Cordy was.

When Angel did mention Cordy in season 5, it always felt like he was holding so much, like it hurt so much just to talk about it....that's why I always assumed that he didn't talk about her much because it was just too painful.

Ashes Fall

Alright so kudos to Whedon there but agreed, that does NOT excuse all the moments Cordy should have been mentioned in, some of which almost seemed like they were set up for it but wasn't or how the whole BS with Angel and Nina was horrendously disrespectful to her! The way the team started pushing Angel towards her the moment they met and both times were JUST AFTER Cordy was removed from the picture. First it was only like a week or two after she'd fallen into the coma and then was about the same amount of time after she DIED.
The excuse that it was too painful for Angel to talk about may work but to an extent. Even that is not acceptable to me when the lack of mention disrespected Cordy such as the 'Smile Time' conversation with Wesley. The preach about finding that one person who makes the world worth fighting for, all that needed was a very simple response:
"Like Cordy" or "I did and I lost her." or "Cordy was that person and I lost her". Anything like that, that's all. That would have satisfied the need.

I must also point out that I was not satisfied by the Hamilton mention because I feel it was wrong that it was Fred's name he emphasized when it should have been Cordy's.

The lack of any aftermath of Cordy's death in 'Why We Fight' pisses me off the most, the prime reason being that Bangel fans use it and the scarce mentions she gets to claim that Angel got over it instantly.

Wow, I keep finding out that there are more and more levels to the abuse that poor woman suffered at his hands!
Something else I recently learned was that he also tricked her into doing 'You're Welcome' because she wasn't informed that Cordy was being killed off which she'd been promised wouldn't happen, until AFTER she signed on. She sobbed the whole time Whedon was discussing the script with her. She had to go through quite a bit of grief before she could be comforted and moved by it. Absolutely disgusting!

True, Cangel does get due respect for their friendship and with all due appreciation for that, from my perspective their friendship and their romance are one and the same because they are a part of each other. I'm no expert but I am a firm believer that the most healthy romantic relationships begin as friendships. The lack of a friendship is the core reason I DON'T like Bangel and without it I wouldn't have been convinced by Cangel either.

I've read/been told about all those events though I've not read the comics themselves. I want to, but they seem to be scarcely sold in my area. I've checked every book and comic place I've ever happened to end up at (usually while hanging with friends) and I've only ever spotted it at one comic shop but it's usually just the first issue. It just so happens a friend gave me a gift certificate to that comic place for my b-day last year so I'll be using that on it next time I'm there but after that I'm not sure how I'll get my hands on the rest of the series. I may have to search online.

I know enough though to already have a high appreciation for ATF for all the compensation it gives. Like this:

I've actually imagined this happening a lot, so it I'm ecstatic that it actually does. Does he actually say this to her?
It pissed me off royally the way he regarded that relationship in s5, like a memory he enjoyed although the references were very subtle and nameless, in this case rightfully so.

I'm going to have to partially disagree with this.

The problem is that Connor only ever believed what he wanted to (I.E when he accused Angel of forging Holtz's suicide note when I'm pretty sure Holtz actually did write it himself) and Jasmine most likely intentionally used that. So yeah, in that way he was a victim but he didn't have to be.

Unlike Cordy, Connor had the freedom of choosing his actions ergo he had the power, was the only one with the power to not let it happen, but he did. No matter what the thing was telling him, he knew that the woman before him was too old for him, he saw photographs of her holding him as an infant at the same age she was at present making that the one thing he couldn't argue in his favor so he could have exercised better judgment. His upbringing wasn't the most barbaric it could have been. He was still raised by a human being.

So why shouldn't he apologize? Cordy apologized to Wesley for Lilah's murder even though that wasn't her action! The significance of it was that it showed remorse and maturity. Connor really needed that kind of growth.

What pisses me off is that Angel held that against Cordy alone not Connor as well (the fact that he didn't see how clearly that illustrated that Cordy wasn't Cordy is a whole other wrong). Or at least to my memory he didn't but I'll never be able to watch that area of the show again.
Sorry not trying to get into an off-topic debate. I'm done with that.

To throw you a bone though, acknowledging that something one is doing/has done is wrong isn't necessarily the same as apologizing for it. One can understand that a particular action is wrong but still elect to do it and even feel no remorse for it.
Acknowledging that his sexual relationship with Cordy was wrong DOES NOT have to mean that Connor didn't still revel in it or consider himself a victim.
It doesn't sound to me like that was the case though which I am glad of.

Whew, alright. I'm done with my essay.

FuriosityShell

Connor did do some bad things, but his relationship with Cordy wasn't one of them. He couldn't help his feelings for her and he didn't know that it wasn't really her. I took Connor in S5 as really just laughing away the pain, not looking back fondly on their twisted relationship. Cordy didn't HAVE to apologize for what she did to Lilah, I think she just did that because that was the last day she'd have with Wesley and she wanted to clear that up and say everything she could before she left.

starryeyesxx, Connor didn't apologize in After the Fall. We just got his perspective on his life. We saw flashbacks to his life all the way from his conception with his thoughts on it. He flashbacked to when he was a baby with Angel and Cordy standing over his crib and his narration said (I'm paraphrasing here; I don't have my comics on me) "oh, that's kinda nice" only for him to flashback to his doing the deed with Cordy and his narration said "Oh, that's just disgusting. My first time was with my mother. I'm like Oedipus." Then he vomited. Didn't we all?

Speaking of Connor though, I read the "Waiting in the Wings" script and I found this extra Angel/Cordy bit that didn't make it into the episode. It's the scene where Angel first sees Cordy in her dress before they head to the ballet and Lorne is in the room as is baby Connor in the crib, sleeping, and Cordy asks how's Connor doing.

CORDELIA (cont'd)
Tonight we're just a couple of young sophisticates enjoying an evening of classical dance. How does that sound?

Angel cannot help but smile.

ANGEL
That sounds just right.

CORDELIA
How's our boy?

ANGEL
Fast asleep.

LORNE
And I'll make sure he stays that way. He so much as peeps, I'll chloroform him.

Angel and Cordy throw him a look.

LORNE (cont'd)
New parents. Never with the humor.

Ashes Fall

Damn it, I hate when I'm quoted BEFORE I've submitted my edits! I've added some significant acknowledgements.

If you'd actually paid attention to what I said, what I referenced didn't depend on his knowledge of the possession. It was about the person he saw in front of him, a person he saw holding him as an infant in a photograph. Possessed or not she was too old for him and he knew she mothered him.
So I still disagree.

Wait, he remembered being an infant? O_o Is that actually possible?
Love it though, the Oedipus line is epic! Especially since he almost killed his father several times as well
Ooh, I want to read ATF so badly!

OMG why was that removed?!

starryeyesxx

That is a cute little moment, thanks for posting it

I'm glad to hear that Connor didn't apologize as such, but just acknowledged it was wrong.

Back to Connor - I know you said you're not going to talk about it anymore, but I think I should get to reply what you said - Connor was incredibly vulnerable. You're talking about him as if he was a normal kid who had good role models in his life & had a lot of healty relationships around him to learn from. He didn't. He was completely brainwashed by Holtz his whole life, then he's thrown into this whole new world with very little knowledge of normal human interactions. He is exactly the kind of person that abuser's take advantage of. He's never had any experience with girls before & suddenly there's Cordelia. She's attractive & she cares about him - something he was starved of. & maybe he did think that it could be wrong, but he trusted Cordelia, if she was kissing him, then he believed it was ok. Tears fall from his eyes when she kisses him - what does that tell you about his mental state? He's incredibly lonely & isolated & all he wants is to feel needed & loved. Evil!Cordy knew that & used it to manipulate him for months. He went from being completely indoctrinated by Holtz to being brainwashed by her, so much so that when everything with Jasmine fell apart, there was nothing left & he wanted to kill himself. Connor was groomed. I know that he was 18 & that's illegal, but like I said before, his social development was extremely stunted. To me, I think the writers were almost using the way she manipulated & groomed him as a metaphor for child abuse, but they were too scared/respectful to actually make him underage. Connor had free will - but victims of abuse do, they can choose to walk away but there's a reason that's so difficult to do. Having free will does not mean he's not a victim.

If you flippped the genders & showed an incredibly vulnerable & lonely girl seduced by a much older man manipulating & grooming her, I think a lot more people would be angry about it on the kid's behalf.

*Just to clarify, even though I say Cordy, I'm sure you all realize that I don't mean the real Cordelia at all, just the thing that possessed her. She was a victim too. I don't think many fans realize just how violated both Connor & Cordelia were & how problematic it all was.

Ashes Fall

Alright, fine. Like I said, I can't watch that crap anymore so my memory is not perfect. I thought who can look at picture of themselves being held as a baby and not think 'parent' of the person holding them but yeah ok, uncle, you're right. I appreciate the insight.

I still think an apology makes sense and would complete the revelation. He doesn't have to owe it for it to be entitled. It would show Cordy respect, acknowledge that she was a victim as well and let her, or at least Angel if it couldn't be directed at her, know that he felt badly that she was violated. Especially in the ATF timeline if it were directed at her, it would likely be Connor's only chance to talk to her because she's only be present in a brief appearance from the higher plain.
The act of saying "I'm Sorry" doesn't have to be to redeem a fault, it could also be meant in sympathy, like telling someone whose loved one died that you are sorry for their loss. You're obviously not at fault for their loss.
A perspective Connor doesn't seem to take in this ATF reflection, so it doesn't completely satisfy me but I still love the idea of it.


This wouldn't affect my opinion but I'm curious, did he ever come to understand that the Cordy he slept with WASN'T Cordy?

FuriosityShell

Cordy doesn't interact with anyone in the comics except Angel. When Angel is dying and unconscious, his body astral projects and she appears. No one else can see them. It's exactly like her and Skip in "Birthday". Except she's Skip and Angel is her. So I don't know if Connor knew it wasn't the real Cordy. Presumably Angel explained everything to him. I don't even think Cordy would want an apology from him because she knew he was manipulated.

If you're having trouble getting the comics, Amazon is good. I'd recommend getting the hardcover or trade paperback volumes. They're usually cheaper than the individual issues and include extras like art galleries, commentary and Q&As with author Brian Lynch. If you do get the volumes, only get volumes 1-4. Those are canon. Also, if you're interested get the Spike: After the Fall miniseries volume. It's a prequel to the story and helps explain some of the Spike and Illyria stuff in the ,main story, and it's also canon. Though it's not essential to understanding ATF, so if you don't want it, you'll still be good.

Ashes Fall

He better have! Both Connor and Cordy are owed that.

Most assuredly not, but again not a reason he shouldn't offer one. As I said it would just show respect for what was done to her.

If I am correct in my assumption of what you are referencing as 'volumes', then that's what my local comic shop has and admittingly, just one of them is quite pricey at $20. That's why I've seen it there, more than once actually, but haven't bought it and would only do so now because I have a gift certificate.
The only individual issues they have is of the non-canon stuff such as a few issues of 'The Curse'. They also have some script books, I spotted 'Waiting in the Wings' last time I was there and you've made me kinda wanna buy it. The individual stuff is actually dirt cheap, less than a buck even.
A different comic shop local to me actually has a few individual issues of Angel & Faith and of Buffy season 10 (or is it 9?) but absolutely NOTHING Angel.

I'll most certainly look into what you've suggested and anything that will increase my understanding interests me so I appreciate you bringing my attention to the Spike mini-series.

FYI, I picked up the Angel Omnibus at a used bookstore at a steal last week which is a full compilation of a series of Angel comics that take place in season 1 and I think some in season 2. Although they are not canon, they are enjoyable and some of them are so well done that I'd love to have seen them as episodes on the screen.

starryeyesxx

I don't think Connor ever found out in s4, but I'm sure he knows the whole story now. If Connor told Cordy he was sorry about what happened to her, I'd be ok with that, & I'm sure she'd be sorry about what happened to him as well. I don't think they'll be interacting anytime soon though...

FuriosityShell, what do you mean that the first 4 volumes were canon? Were Joss not involved in the others or something?

Ashes Fall

Which is a shame, Sophie. I'd like to see a Cordy/Connor scene since Jasmine vacated her and she's herself again. I want him to know and appreciate the true Cordy, to hear...or read him say "I love you mom"

Hell, I wanna Cordy to be brought back and for them be a family again and Cordy and Angel to give Connor a baby sister or brother... but of course, that's totally ridiculous.

What do you mean by "anytime soon?", are Whedon and Dark Horse still putting out canon comics?

FuriosityShell

Joss was busy with BtVS S8 and planning Dollhouse so he couldn't write After the Fall. So he planned out the story with Brian Lynch and allowed Brian to write it himself. The series lasted 17 issues and works more as an Angel movie than a S6 really. But IDW comics decided to continue the story as Angel: Aftermath without Brian or Joss's involvement, all the way up to 44 issues, showing what happened after ATF, which works as an Angel S6. They wrote out Lorne in a tribute comic to Andy Hallett which was in good taste. But it left the cast pretty empty. I heard Cordy made another cameo in one issue. I don't know the details but every time I hear about it, fans say it was pointless and cheapened "You're Welcome" and her previous After the Fall appearance. But for the most part, Cordy was gone, as was Wes, whose story wrapped up in ATF. So I guess it was just Angel, Gunn and Connor with Spike and Illyria in and out because they had their own mini-series, and a bunch of OCs that don't appear in any canon comics. I haven't read those comics, but fans say they range from bad to mediocre. Joss said he hasn't read those comics and he hasn't outright said they are non-canon not wanting to ruin it for the fans who bought them and do consider them canon. But, they were done without his involvement and the events and characters have not been referenced in the current comics, so they're non-canon. The comic series ended when Joss got the Angel title back under Dark Horse for Angel & Faith. The original canon 17 issues are published in volumes 1-4.

To answer your question Ashes Fall, yes Buffy and Angel comics are still being published going into S11 which will start later this fall. I liked S8, but S9 and A&F are lackluster in my opinion. I don't recommend any of the comics to you as Bangel briefly reunites in S8 and you'll probably be upset by that. If it's any consolation, the Bangel ship was pretty destroyed by the events in S8 though so no one who reads the comics really wants them together anymore. Even though Cordy doesn't show up in A&F, Connor does for an arc and he and Angel have repaired their relationship and they're really close now if it makes you feel any better.

I personally don't want Cordy back in the comics. With the exception of Buffy S8 (which Joss was heavily involved in as opposed to just signing off on the other seasons), none of them have the complexity of the TV series, and S9 / A&F left me majorly disappointed. So I'd rather Cordy have went out in a high note with "You're Welcome" and a brief appearance in After the Fall than for her to come back and be dragged through the mud again with everyone else with these new writers.

I read the "You're Welcome" script and there aren't any deleted scenes between Angel and Cordy but there are some lines that got cut out. When Angel first hugs her in the hospital scene, Cordelia says "Okay... Vampire strength... Crushing fragile body... Ribs cracking"

During Angel's battle with Lindsey, Cordelia says "That's my boy..." when he's kicking Lindsey's ass.

The final scene between Angel and Cordelia is the same dialogue-wise, but there's an extra line from Cordy.

CORDELIA
Don't make it hard. Angel. I'm just on a different road, and this is my off-ramp. You don't know what kind of hell I've been through; I couldn't tough that one out anymore. The Powers That Be owed me one. And I didn't waste it. Got my boy back on track.

However, Cordy's fate is completely different in the script than in the episode. She just leaves in the script. Angel doesn't get a phone call and we don't find out she dies, she just leaves.

CORDELIA
What the hell. One for the road.

She kisses him -- he responds, the two of them sinking into each other deeply. A few seconds, then they break apart, and then Cordy leaves.

Off Angel...

BLACK OUT

It's extremely vague. Cordy leaves as in she walks out? Or Cordy leaves as in she fades away right in front of him? This might have been the ending they used to trick Charisma with, I don't know. Either way, it makes no sense because I couldn't buy Cordy leaving without an explanation. I couldn't buy her leaving period unless it was for a really good reason. The actual ending is much better, I think.