Everwood - Everwood Fans who are Dawson/Joey & Pacey/Andie Fans of Dawson's Creek #31: Williamson and Stupin destroyed their own show. - Page 4

**jediwands** · 05-26-2021, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RM01 (View Post)

This was another thing that bothered me which also in a way teased even more for a DJ ending. If PJ was SOOO meant to be, how can you justify all their actions in season 5? As you say, Pacey did not seem bothered in the slightest about Joey's jealousy for Dawson nor did he seem to care about any other guy she had interest for (i.e. Charlie). They gave off a completely platonic vibe where two people that were together during their adolescent years had grown up and acknowledged that they were better off as friends. But what bothered me more between the two and what was most obvious that they no longer saw each other in the romantic sense was Joey's zero care factor when Pacey and Audrey got together. We all know Joey's tendency to get jealous over a guy (specifically Dawson. So. Many. Times.) so you would think she'd show the slightest shred of being somewhat bothered about Pacey getting together with Audrey if she truly never stopped loving him. But no. She frankly couldn't give two s**ts and was way too concerned with every other guy except Pacey (Dawson, the teacher, Charlie etc).

Amen.

***Jerry D*** · 05-26-2021, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilpensix (View Post)

It really does allow you to understand that time period. I love it. Yes, I don’t understand why they had to go with a twist not having them end up together. Give us the fairytale ending. The pairing was cute and magical. It made sense they’d sustain the magic as adults. I didn’t know he passed so soon after the series finale. Awe.

I grew up during that time period so I especially loved that show.

I was disappointed that Kevin and Winnie didn't end up together too, but they had a lot of ups and downs in their relationship, so I wasn't completely surprised. Even in the Series Finale, she was semi-cheating on him when he went to visit her at the camp where she was working and they fought at the camp, got kicked out of the camp, and they fought almost constantly on the way home, and that was sort of their "thing," where they fought a lot but they always made their way back to each other.

Yes, at the end of the Series Finale the adult Kevin said that his father died 2 years years after that Summer of his Junior year and that Wayne took over his Furniture business. He also said that Winnie and him dated all through their Senior Year and he saw her off to College to study Art History in Paris, and they wrote each other once a week for the next 8 years and he was there to greet her when she came home, with his wife and his first born son, who was 8 months old.

COOLCAT200 · 05-26-2021, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilpensix (View Post)

I didn’t know he passed so soon after the series finale. Awe.

Yea Kevin mentions in his final voice over that Wayne took over the furniture factory two years later when their dad passed away.

***Jerry D*** · 05-26-2021, 11:58 AM

Here's a clip of the end of The Wonder Years:

**jediwands** · 05-26-2021, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post)

I used to wax poetic about Dawson and Joey back in the day, and here is something I wrote that summed up my feelings about them:

We really were betrayed by Williamson and Stupin in the finale.

You just perfectly summed up Dawson/Joey. Made me have tears in my eyes applying it to real life. I couldn't agree more, Jerry. Can we put this in the opening post? I love it so much, it couldn't sum up Dawson/Joey more perfectly. You are the definitely of a WRITER. So beautifully written and 100% accurate.

The writer's took what was once a beautiful story and massacred it. What a shame.

**jediwands** · 05-26-2021, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post)

I grew up during that time period so I especially loved that show.

I was disappointed that Kevin and Winnie didn't end up together too, but they had a lot of ups and downs in their relationship, so I wasn't completely surprised. Even in the Series Finale, she was semi-cheating on him when he went to visit her at the camp where she was working and they fought at the camp, got kicked out of the camp, and they fought almost constantly on the way home, and that was sort of their "thing," where they fought a lot but they always made their way back to each other.

Yes, at the end of the Series Finale the adult Kevin said that his father died 2 years years after that Summer of his Junior year and that Wayne took over his Furniture business. He also said that Winnie and him dated all through their Senior Year and he saw her off to College to study Art History in Paris, and they wrote each other once a week for the next 8 years and he was there to greet her when she came home, with his wife and his first born son, who was 8 months old.

Of course you would love the time period.

Was it overall accurate in your mind? It's exactly how I feel about Stranger Things and the scary accurate depiction of the 80s.

You make a terrific point about the semi-cheating. I forgot about that part.

Oh my gosh, I screwed that up, lol. I was thinking the ACTOR that played the father passed away after the series finale. The character, sure, yes. Heartbreaking to find out. This reminds me of Everwood and the speculation that Berlanti was toying with a revival of Andy passing away and everyone getting back together for his funeral. No thank you. Then again, he could now do this for Nina.

**jediwands** · 05-26-2021, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by COOLCAT200 (View Post)

Yea Kevin mentions in his final voice over that Wayne took over the furniture factory two years later when their dad passed away.

Yes, sorry, I've lost my mind, lol. I was thinking you were referring to the actor who played his dad passing after the series finale.

Thankfully, he is very much alive.

***Jerry D*** · 05-26-2021, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilpensix (View Post)

You just perfectly summed up Dawson/Joey. Made me have tears in my eyes applying it to real life. I couldn't agree more, Jerry. Can we put this in the opening post? I love it so much, it couldn't sum up Dawson/Joey more perfectly. You are the definitely of a WRITER. So beautifully written and 100% accurate.

Thanks!

Feel free to put it in the opening post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilpensix (View Post)

The writer's took what was once a beautiful story and massacred it. What a shame.

Oh I know.

What they did to both Dawson and Joey and Pacey and Andie really was a crime.

Here is something that I wrote about Pacey and Andie back in the day:

Quote:

Hi everyone!

A lot of us, on a daily basis, devote countless posts and post topics debating the merits of the romantic relationship of Dawson and Joey versus the romantic relationship of Pacey and Joey. What a lot of people, except for some wonderfully devoted Pacey and Andie fans, seem to forget, or choose to ignore, is just how wonderful a romantic relationship that Pacey Witter and Andie McPhee had. Season Two of Dawson’s Creek was a major disappointment to me in many ways, namely because The Powers That Be effectively ruined the wonderful relationship of Dawson and Joey, whose romantic relationship ended, twice, before it really had a chance to begin, and whose friendship was left in tatters. The one positive development that I saw in Season Two, however, was the wonderful romantic relationship of Pacey and Andie, who I truly feel, to this day, were the best romantic couple ever depicted on Dawson’s Creek, and who had the most mutually loving and supportive relationship I’ve ever seen on that show. Andie opened up Pacey to a whole new world, a world of love with someone his own age, (what a concept, huh?

) and she bolstered his confidence in such a way that he was able, for the first and only time in his life, to put his “slacker” image behind him, and obtain success, both scholastically, and, more important, as a human being. Andie didn’t force Pacey to improve his grades or to become someone that he wasn’t, rather, she inspired Pacey to accomplish more than he himself believed he could accomplish, and she was the first person in Pacey’s life that really believed in him. Pacey managed to turn his life around, confident in the love of Andie, and I, for one, found that to be a wonderful development. Pacey, in turn, became Andie’s hero, sticking by her as her mental condition deteriorated, and acting in a truly noble and mature manner. We had always seen evidence of Pacey’s kindness and intelligence that lay hidden behind his outwardly affable and apathetic exterior, but it was Andie who helped Pacey, and all of us, realize what a truly wonderful human being that he was. Pacey also found the courage to stand up to his father when his father insulted Andie, and Andie’s subsequent phone conversation with Mr. Witter allowed him and Pacey to achieve a true breakthrough in their relationship, and allowed them to interact as a father and son truly should for the first time in their lives. There was a sweetness to the relationship of Pacey and Andie that I found to be exhilarating, and it served as a nice counterpoint to the ever volatile and unstable relationship of Dawson and Joey. I actually had tears in my eyes in “His Leading Lady” when Pacey said to her: “I know, Andie, I know and I can help. I know I can. And I'm not going to turn away from you, Andie. After all, you've done for me. And certainly not when you need me the most. We can do this together and I know that I can help you,” and a tearful Andie said to Pacey “How do you know you can help me?” and Pacey answered “Because, Andie, I love you.” That was one of the most moving scenes I have ever witnessed on a television show, and I truly thought that Pacey and Andie were one of the sweetest, and most loving couples I have ever seen. I was especially moved when I watched Pacey help Andie when her mother had a breakdown at the supermarket in “The Reluctant Hero,” as he said precisely the right thing to calm Mrs. McPhee down and diffuse a volatile and embarrassing situation for Andie and her family. Now, that, my friends, was the Pacey Witter that I loved, and he was never more noble than he was at that moment, and in that season, because he was with someone who he truly loved, and who truly loved him, and Pacey and Andie’s wonderful relationship brought out the best in this incredible character.

I was also truly touched by their farewell scene in “Ch Ch Changes,” when they said:

Pacey: I don't want to say goodbye. I just want to look at you...I wish I had some eloquent parting words for you but...all I could think of was this. Thank you. Thank you for everything you've given to me. Thank you for forcing me to be the man you made me. Just thank you. I am so grateful to you, Andie.

Andie: Oh, I don't want to let you go, Pacey.

Pacey: Just remember your promise, okay? You and me together again, happy, healthy, and more in love than ever.

Andie: I'll remember.

Unfortunately though, the “wonderful” writers didn’t remember, and they threw away this beautiful relationship for the sake of creating “drama,” just like they threw away Dawson and Joey’s beautiful relationship for the same reason.

I was disappointed beyond words that the writers chose to have Andie cheat on Pacey while she was being treated at a psychiatric facility during the summer after their Sophomore year together. Andie’s disclosure to Pacey that she had cheated on him tore their relationship apart, and it had devastating consequences on both Pacey and Andie, and in many ways, neither character ever recovered from this revelation. Granted, Andie was wrong to cheat on Pacey, but she was honest enough to tell him what had transpired that summer, and I honestly felt that she wasn’t in her right mind when she had cheated on him, but rather, she was mentally ill, and far away from her family, friends, and Pacey, in a psychiatric facility, and she most obviously felt lonely and vulnerable, and she reached out, once, to a young man in a similar position, and she was genuinely remorseful for what she had done, as she tearfully pleaded with Pacey to forgive her, but he just couldn’t find it in his heart to do so.

Once Pacey rejected Andie, she became a lying, cheating, and calculating caricature of a character, and she also exhibited a propensity for cruelty and deception that made her character vilified and virtually unwatchable. Andie’s original ambitions for scholastic success as a way to cope with the tragedy in her life were twisted into a obsession, and she was shown using any means possible, legal or otherwise, to achieve her goals of perfection, even at the cost of her friendships and her relationships with the other students at Capeside High. A lot of discussions have been generated about how the character of Dawson Leery was purposely destroyed in Season Three to make Pacey Witter’s character look like the obvious choice for Joey Potter’s character to make, but if anyone’s character was destroyed in Season Three, it was Andie McPhee’s character, and I consider that to be a shame, because I think the hatred that was generated towards her character for her actions in the first part of Season Three has a lot to do with the fact that she’s no longer on the show. I also despise the writers for breaking up what I consider to be the most wonderful romantic relationship ever depicted on Dawson’s Creek, because like Dawson and Joey, Pacey and Andie touched my heart.

Once Pacey learned that Andie had cheated on him, he was crushed by this devastating blow to his heart, and all the confidence he had gained during the time he had spent with her crumbled away, as he reverted back to his slacker ways, and he came close to failing all his courses, and he nearly got expelled for starting a fight on Joey’s behalf. The only really positive accomplishment that he made during the entire school year was his role in the play that Andie directed, and I was touched when Andie told him afterwards that she shouldn’t have ever have tried to change him, because he was “perfect.” When Pacey performed in that play, however, Joey was off on her date with AJ, after Pacey had practically begged her to come and see him in the play, leaving him hurt and disappointed when she didn’t show up. I thought this was a very thoughtless move on Joey’s part, because Pacey made it very clear to her that her attendance at his play would mean a lot to him, but she went ahead on her date with “college boy” anyway. Joey, to be sure, has, to a degree, been a loving and supportive girlfriend to Pacey, but she certainly didn’t inspire him to excel scholastically like Andie did, so I simply have to conclude that Andie was much better for Pacey than Joey, a feeling that has remained unchanged for me this season, and in my humble opinion, Pacey and Joey’s relationship couldn’t hold a candle to Pacey and Andie’s wonderful relationship. I personally don’t think that Joey Potter will ever be as good for Pacey Witter as Andie McPhee was, because to me, Andie’s love for Pacey was so much more genuine than Joey’s love for him has been. Andie was Pacey’s inspiration, his love, and his best friend, and she helped him to become the man she knew he could be, a fact that Pacey himself seemed to have forgotten in his reaction to Andie’s cheating on him, and it’s also a fact that many fans seem to have forgotten as well.

I can remember so many times when Andie simply refused to let Pacey feel sorry for himself, and in so doing, she inspired him to become a better person. Just look at this conversation from “The Reluctant Hero”:

Pacey: You finally figured it out. I'm not Luke Skywalker, I'm not even Luke Perry. There's no hero here, Andie. I am a joke.

Andie: I'm not coming to your pity party. You know I don't think you're a joke, Pacey.

Pacey: But it's too late. I've spent too long being a screw-up, I'm kind of passed the proverbial point of no return.

Andie: Well, change your course. Break the chain. Anyone can re-invent themselves. I mean, it's America. Madonna does it every week.

Pacey: But I don't know how. I don't know where to start.

Andie: Try starting from the inside. I mean, anyone can change their fate. Heroes are made, not born.

To me, Joey has never inspired Pacey like that, and she never will. I also feel that the sexual aspect of Pacey and Andie’s relationship was handled in a much more tasteful way than the sexual aspect of Pacey and Joey’s relationship was handled, and all you have to do is compare Pacey and Joey’s crass conversation following the first time they made love in “Four Stories” to the beautiful conversation that Pacey and Andie had after the first time they made love in “Sex She Wrote,” and I think you’ll see my point.

I loved Pacey and Andie, and I loved the person that Pacey became because he was in a loving relationship with Andie.

***Jerry D*** · 05-26-2021, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilpensix (View Post)

Of course you would love the time period.

Was it overall accurate in your mind? It's exactly how I feel about Stranger Things and the scary accurate depiction of the 80s.

It was a little idealized, but overall it depicted that era very well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilpensix (View Post)

You make a terrific point about the semi-cheating. I forgot about that part.

Yes, Winnie broke Kevin's heart several times, but he really did love her.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilpensix (View Post)

Oh my gosh, I screwed that up, lol. I was thinking the ACTOR that played the father passed away after the series finale. The character, sure, yes. Heartbreaking to find out.

Yes, Dan Lauria is still alive. I thought that he did a great job playing Kevin's father. In some ways I felt that Kevin's father worked himself to an early grave.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilpensix (View Post)

This reminds me of Everwood and the speculation that Berlanti was toying with a revival of Andy passing away and everyone getting back together for his funeral. No thank you. Then again, he could now do this for Nina.

I remember us discussing that a while back. I wouldn't have liked to have seen a scene at Andy's grave.

You're right though, it they brought Everwood back, they would have to deal with Nina/Stephanie's passing.

COOLCAT200 · 05-26-2021, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilpensix (View Post)

Of course you would love the time period.

Was it overall accurate in your mind? It's exactly how I feel about Stranger Things and the scary accurate depiction of the 80s.

Stranger Things has been pure gold for us 80’s babies

COOLCAT200 · 05-26-2021, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilpensix (View Post)

Yes, sorry, I've lost my mind, lol. I was thinking you were referring to the actor who played his dad passing after the series finale.

Thankfully, he is very much alive.

Oh I’ve seen him in many many things. He was on This is Us few weeks ago.

**jediwands** · 05-27-2021, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post)

Thanks!

Feel free to put it in the opening post.

Oh I know.

What they did to both Dawson and Joey and Pacey and Andie really was a crime.

Here is something that I wrote about Pacey and Andie back in the day:

This is so bang on, Jerry.

**jediwands** · 05-27-2021, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post)

It was a little idealized, but overall it depicted that era very well.

Yes, Winnie broke Kevin's heart several times, but he really did love her.

Yes, Dan Lauria is still alive. I thought that he did a great job playing Kevin's father. In some ways I felt that Kevin's father worked himself to an early grave.

I remember us discussing that a while back. I wouldn't have liked to have seen a scene at Andy's grave.

You're right though, it they brought Everwood back, they would have to deal with Nina/Stephanie's passing.

Do you think Winnie loved Kevin in a purely romantic way?

I completely agree. He really did.

Yes, thank God a revival didn’t happen with Andy passing away. Plus, how can you even think to do anything Everwood-related without the one and only, Treat Williams?

Unfortunately, Berlanti would have an easy way to bring everyone back together (if some moved out of town) given Stephanie’s passing. Everwood originally started with Julia’s passing. The revival could start with Andy’s second wife passing away.

**jediwands** · 05-27-2021, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by COOLCAT200 (View Post)

Stranger Things has been pure gold for us 80’s babies

It is so amazing. 100% accurate. The series brilliantly takes you RIGHT back to the 80’s.

**jediwands** · 05-27-2021, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by COOLCAT200 (View Post)

Oh I’ve seen him in many many things. He was on This is Us few weeks ago.

Nice! That’s so great. He’s s terrific actor.

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Fan Forum > TV Shows - Past > Everwood > Everwood Fans who are Dawson/Joey & Pacey/Andie Fans of Dawson's Creek #31: Williamson and Stupin destroyed their own show.