[break the window]

Originally Posted by Shu (View Post) It wasn't just any two people. They were two out of your three leads. It's never smart to try and change a show that much and attempt to continue. I think a lot of people left because they were satisfied with the ending. People watch shows for a lot of reasons and often its not for the whole product especially with a show like OTH that was so focussed on couples. They also lost the dynamic of lucas/karen, lucas/keith and lucas/haley. Love it or hate it, but he was the heart of the show.

I don't blame them for leaving. Season 6 finale was a series finale to a lot of people. I thought it was perfect. The writers knew a lot of fans were not going to watch past season 6 and that was their series finale. What a great series finale. And it was two very important people to the structure of the show. So I can see why they wouldn't want to stick around. There was nothing else to discover if you weren't invested in going forward.

Originally Posted by Betty (View Post) I'm not happy at the way that Rachel is playing Mouth.

Mouth has always been the representation of that classic nerdy guy. The one who you wouldn't pick out of the crowd as a popular kid, but he was a kid with a lot of heart and a lot to offer. The way he went after Rachel and tried to see her good side was just sad, imo. She was never gonna be there to be a girlfriend to him, no matter how many times he propped her up on the highest pedastal or showed her how she should be treated. They were just never going to be that. Rachel knew that, Mouth didn't...and he found out the hard way. It's really sad that Rachel knew what she was doing and did it anyway not caring that a really good guy got hurt.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Wasn't Brooke sweet posting those pictures of Rachel? Just gross. I don't comprehend how Brooke could ever go through with something so cruel. It's borderline criminal if you ask me. The telling part is her saying to Mouth that she wasn't even going through with anything, she was just playing. That is her version of just playing? Sickening.

All the body issues and self doubt that Brooke has every day over how she looks and she goes and does that, it's digusting. I cannot...wait I kind of can. And not only did she post a private picture, she stole the picture. She broke into Rachel's cabinet at her family's cabin and stole it. After Rachel opened up the cabin to everyody, Brooke goes and steals from her. Was that all becuase she caught Brooke..."Brooking" herself? It's kind of rude to go and post someone's picture like that and expect to everything to be okay.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Whitey was right asking Karen who was at fault for only having Keith for a few weeks. Was it harsh? Yes. But was it true? Yes. Karen wasted so much time running from her romantic feelings for Keith. It's a hard reality to recognize but it's true. I love what Whitey said to her, everything. He's right on, especially the part about giving Keith a son, Lucas, for a lifetime.

Karen took Keith for granted when she said not to his proposal and Season 1. And then she strung him around like he was always going to be there. You never know what life holds for you. I thought Karen, of all people, would know that. She got pregnant in high school, changing her life forever. And she had Keith around for Lucas' entire life. I get that Karen didn't want to start a relationship with raising Lucas and him being so young. But Lucas isn't so little anymore and she's a grown woman.

I think Karen just wanted to blame everyone for everything becuase she was just so bitter. And Whitey is never one to hold back on the truth. Did she think he was going to be like everyone else and feel sorry for her. Did she want everyone to feel sorry for her? It's quite sad really that she just turned into a bitter woman who didn't want to feel anything but hatred for everyone else.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Lucas telling Karen was even more...

That's what really hurt. Lucas was grieving Keith and his only outlet was basketball, which he couldn't play anymore becuase he had a heart condition. A heart condition that he got from his father Dan Scott. The man who killed Lucas only, true, father Keith Scott. So it's a really awful circle of death they were in and Lucas telling Karen made things worse.

But he couldn't go on life and not tell her. Especially since the condition could kill him at any second when he steps on the court to play.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Nathan and Haley are adorable. Every scene the past couple of episodes is just so cute. I like their stability during this time period because everything else has gone to hell at the moment.

They are getting back to being a couple again. Not caring about Nathan's parents or where life is going to take them. They are just being in love and looking towards the future.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) I also find it really, really interesting that Brooke is still supposedly Lucas' girlfriend and he wants nothing to do with her right now while he deals with everything. Very telling. I actually forgot they were still together. More proof (not that we needed more) that Lucas and Brooke were never serious, ever. They weren't serious the first time around and even the second time around. If they were, Brooke would be with Lucas more during this time period.

Brooke is never one to help people go through anything. She wants a serious relationship but she always bails when the serious part comes along. She had no idea what Lucas was going through with losing Keith and Jimmy both. Brooke never bothered to ask "how are you" and not have any agenda by it.

(side note, there was an episode preview around 3x17 time about Brooke going up to Lucas at the Rivercourt and asking "is it true" and that was it. It was never in the show. So it's a best guess she found out through others or Lucas told her, but there was never anything concrete how she found out)

But the thing is, there was no defining thing that Lucas ever told Brooke about his condition or even planned to tell her. Peyton knew, but Peyton knew for a while before everyone else did. To find out your boyfriend has a serious heart condition that prevents him from playing a sport he loves...that's one thing. Finding out from someone else that your boyfriend has a heart condition...[completely different. It doesn't seem like Lucas ever had any intention of telling her.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Haha I love how Dan told that moron from the other team to leave Haley alone.

I loved that moment for Dan. He used his mayor powers in a good way....then he got arrested. The moment you want to like him then you remember why you don't like him.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) I love how Nathan came back after getting stitched up wearing Lucas' jersey. How awesome was that? It was like both Nathan and Lucas were on the court together winning the tournament and making the playoffs.

That was amazing for Nathan. He really needed his brother's strength in that game. Even though Lucas couldn't be there physically, Nathan still needed him. In a way Lucas was there This episode is very telling about Nathan Scott. I feel like we never really got a lot of Nathan on the inside, where his heart really is with basketball. We only got that he loves to play and he wants to play for Duke. But we never got why he wanted to play, what was so special about playing basketball for him. I feel like we finally got a piece of it.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) I also KNEW Nathan was going to get a 4 point play too. I knew that moron would get greedy, not listen to his coach and then foul Nathan with his sinking the 3 and one. Awesome. So awesome.

This is very telling about how Nathan has changed and what he could've been. In the beginning of Season 3, Nathan found out that he was offered a place at Oak Lake Academy and Dan sent the scout away. Dan knew better than to send Nathan to some fancy school that gives kids a closeminded view of basketball and really how the game is played.

If Nathan had went to Oak Lake Acadmy, not only would he not have changed from being who he used to be. He would have turned out like Damien. Cocky and Entitled. That's who Nathan used to be. He found his way through Haley and knew there was life outside of basketball...Damien never learned that.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Oh Peyton, you so do not want to marry Jake. LOL

if you notice, Peyton asked Jake to marry her at the end of her trip. She had to go back to reality. Back to Tree Hill. Jake would stay in Savannah and she would leave. That's why she asked him to marry her. Everything, in Peyton's eyes, would fall apart. She would never get her happy ending. But Peyton was so confused about her feelings that she wanted something easy. Jake was easy, he was right there, waiting for her. She just never really reached out to grab him

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Poor Jake but YAY, FINALLY Mark is pulling together Lucas/Peyton.

I'm so glad it was someone to point Peyton's feelings out to her that wasn't in their little knit group. Someone on the outside that isn't seeing her everyday. We heard "we're just friends," like a million times. It got annoying. How many times do you prove to yourself that it's wrong before you feel that it's right? Jake new Peyton, he knew how she worked. He knew that she so desperately wanted a family after Ellie passed away. He was pulling for her. And I cannot imagine how he felt to hear Peyton's subconscience tell him who she really wants to be with. When Jake was telling her about "i love you, Lucas" thing, it really tore him up. You could see that when she woke up that he had been thinking for a while. How long was Peyton really wanting to be with Lucas, did she ever really want to be with me. It was all very telling and really tragic to watch them fall apart faster then they were put together.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Horrible wedding dress Brooke initially made Haley. WOW.

"Halo...get it." MY GOD IS SHE ANYMORE STUPID!

She basically made that dress into a work of art for a meuseum and not wear to walk down the asile. The girl never thinks

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Brooke is soooooooooooooooooooooooo out of line getting mad at Haley for not liking the dress. Haley was so sweet when she explained to Brooke that she wanted something more simple. Haley has a right, it's her wedding day! What does Brooke do? What she always does! She makes it about her! LOL It's unreal.

Brooke took Haley's words as insulting her and not the dress she worked hard on. I'm sure Brooke worked very hard on that dress. I mean putting feathers on a dress and making a halo. That's gotta be a lot of work. But for Haley to not like it, come on...feathers. Seriously, go fly with the birds if you want feathers.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Notice Lucas also talks about his dream to study literature and of course we know what he ends up doing with that career too... writing books and stuff. I will stop now since it's too spoilery for Betty.

Not just the heart condition to get Lucas outside of basketball, but I wanted Lucas to realize that he has more talents then shooting a ball through a hoop. He's such a talented writer and a teacher. He's amazing at doing both. I think Lucas got so caught up in being able to do basketball really well and getting to play for The Ravens for so long that he could do it professionally and he never saw anything else. He got a little much like Nathan in that area. But at least he was able to come down from it.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) And Keith setting up a college fund for Lucas... wow.

Keith was amazing beyond words. He knew he might not be around when Lucas finally goes to college. Not that Keith expected to not live very long, but who knew what the future held for Karen and Keith. They could've never been as close as they were. Keith wanted to make sure Lucas was taken care of even if he wasn't able to be there. That says a lot of Keith...not as Lucas' uncle, but as Lucas' dad.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) All being set up showing more and more and more how Lucas and Brooke are not only destined to break up for good, but that they were never meant to be and never will be.

They are also showing how they should never be together. Brooke and Lucas were so comfortable in being together that it seemed natural to just wake up and be with that person. I'm not saying that Lucas wanted to be with her. But when you do somethiong for so long, it becomes accustomed. I think Lucas got caught up in the idea of a relationship and everyone seeming happy that he just kept it that way. Then all the stuff with the HCM just catapulted everything into another world where the last thing he cared about was a relationship with Brooke Davis.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) HAHA I KNEW Lucas/Peyton would do the final scene together. Oh man, Mark was THE MAN in this episode. Notice how both Lucas/Peyton didn't want to do the scene together... why is that if they are supposedly only friends and comfortable with that reality? Hmm.

It's really telling that when Lucas first went onto the stage with Peyton, he didn't want to do it because he felt stupid. He was joking about it. The minute Peyton mentioned there was a kiss, he got awkard and said "oh". He knew what it meant.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) The twist regarding the fairytale is while most of it was about Naley, the very end was about Leyton, too. Oh Mark, you wrote a piece of perfection called this episode.

Everyone thought Peyton's "performance" was very emotional and actor driven. But it wasn't a performance at all, nothing for show. She told Lucas exactly how she felt, no filters. And you know what, Lucas knew it. There was no acting, there were no play on words. Lucas saw Peyton's eyes, heard the words out of her mouth. He knew she loved him and it was more than either of them wanted to admit and there it was.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Also... the Brooke/Rachel parallel story was Cooper not loving Rachel like she wanted him to and Lucas not loving Brooke like she wanted him to. That is such brilliance, Mark. YOU ROCK.

I never looked at it as a parallel, but you're right it was. It didn't matter that Cooper was older than Rachel or they were from differnet worlds. They didn't go together. Cooper, I think, really looked at Rachel (before he knew her age) as a girl to have fun with. A girl to spend a few months with and move on from without any strings attached. Cooper didn't seem like the guy to settle down, yet. Rachel treated the relationship as something special, something to have long after high school. But how did Rachel know that, she'd never had a relationship with love and respect that would compare to what she thought she could have with Cooper. That's what was so telling.

And it's the same thing with Brooke/Lucas. Brooke thought she had the one with Lucas, the guy that would be by her side forever. But when they both came out of the fog, they realized it would never work. But Brooke being so materialstic al the time, she never wanted to admit and lose Lucas. Very telling actually.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Haley inviting Dan to the wedding was incredible.

Haley knows Nathan wanted his father at the wedding. He just didn't want Dan to know that. And Haley, without saying a word went to invite Dan to the wedding. She wanted Dan there too. She recognized Dan wanted to change. But she still saw the evilness that perpetuated his thoughts towards everyone. That's why she said "God Help You If You Don't Change". That was very telling without Haley knowing what Dan had really done.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) The wedding dress Brooke made Haley was gorgeous in the end.

What was wrong with Brooke not doing that in the first place. She made a beautiful gown out of leftover materials. She knew how to sew and make things gorgeous without feathers and a halo. Why does she always have to be extravagant?

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Oh man, Peyton did it, she told Brooke she still loves Lucas. It's on!

She wanted to be open and honest this time. Peyton never wanted to hurt anyone or make it difficult when she found out her feelings couldn't be hidden anymore. Brooke used that honesty and truth and screwed back into Peyton's heart, hammers, nais and all. Brooke used Peyton's feelings to get back at her for. The whole "he's on the door under me," still it's like she's claiming Lucas as her prize or something. I cannot imagine how she would really feel if Lucas told her that. If Lucas came clean saying "this isn't working" or "there is somebody else," it was always Peyton saying it. Would Brooke have the same reaction to Lucas as she did with Peyton. When it would actually come from the person she dreaded it from the most.

Brooke knew the minute Peyton was ready to be with Lucas, it was only a matter of time. It was only thing that Lucas needed. He never saw Brooke as the one, as she did. That's what's so sad about it. it was obvious Lucas didn't want to be there forever, he watned someone else. Yeah, he probably went about the wrong way to do it, but Brooke didn't discourage it either. Brooke fell for the lie when she read the letter that was exactly like Peyton's letter. She ignored everything, for years that said, he isn't the one for you. But she had to have him because he was Lucas Scott. What is so special about Lucas Scott for Brooke Davis?

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Like I said, such a deep episode, this one.

I feel like this episode was very telling for a lot of stories. It was an episode that was a long time coming for a lot of people. Nathan and Haley getting married again. Lucas and Peyton's feelings realized. Brooke realizing that not only had she finally lost Lucas, but he was going to be with Peyton. I'm not sure what she would be upset at more. The fact that she would lose Lucas or that she would lose him to Peyton.

Everything in this episode was bought out and told in a very unique way. Brooke and Lucas dispeleld why they are not right for each other. They had chose to ignore these reasons for years and when they finally couldn't hurt each other anymore they stopped.

[jediwands]

3.22

- Mark apparently buys into the intuitive/spiritual/dreams sort of thing considering Nathan had the drowning/water dream the day of their wedding.

- I love the Nathan/Lucas talk at the River Court.

- I love the Karen/Haley scene. Awe.

- Here comes the Brooke crap being cruel to Peyton. Hmm, maybe Brooke needs to grow a brain and figure out that she manipulated Lucas/Peyton back in the day to create all of this in the first place. Granted, she is not to blame for Lucas claiming he had feelings for her the second time around. However, Lucas wouldn't have thought he had feelings the second time around without the first time around! The first time around was Brooke manipulating, scheming, disregarding Peyton's feelings. Maybe she should remember all of this but she won't since it's not in her make up to think of anyone else but herself most of the time.

Is Brooke delusional enough to think that Peyton lost all her feelings for Lucas? I mean, she does know Lucas and Peyton had something together in the past. Otherwise, she wouldn't have schemed and been a witch keeping them apart.

I hate how Brooke slaps Peyton. Does she realize Peyton should have not only slapped her but punched her in the face for what she's done to her in the past?

- When Nathan smiles at Haley as she's cruising in the carriage... wow, soooooooooooooo adorable.

- The Lucas and Haley moment was adorable, too!

- Lucas had to tell Peyton she looked nice.

- Such a beautiful exchange between Nathan and Haley. Awe.

- Wow, Deb telling Dan she was the one who tried to kill him was amazing stuff.

- Peyton's right... she asked Brooke pointedly if she loved Lucas... Brooke avoided the question. EXACTLY.

-

Brooke: How about how you show it? I am not pushing you away Lucas. I am holding on for dear life, but I need you to need me back. Okay, why wouldn’t you tell me about the kiss. And why won’t you ever just let me all the way in? (she cries) We have to go and give our toasts now, about love.

^^^ Brooke's words sum up why Lucas never truly loved Brooke like she wanted him to... why his heart was ALWAYS with Peyton from day 1. It's sad for Brooke, I feel sorry for her during this precise moment but Lucas and Peyton didn't cause this. It is what it is and was always there from day 1... when Brooke tried to prevent it.

- Amazing how it was Dan that Karen told she was pregnant. Wow, what a moment.

- Brooke gave Peyton a second chance? How about Peyton giving Brooke endless chances over the past 10 years? WTF, Brooke. Grow the hell up.

- Haley had the pregnancy test!

- What an ending. Rachel is such a careless idiot. Poor Haley is hysterical seeing Nathan jump in and not surfacing in a timely manner. Wow.

[break the window]

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) I love the Nathan/Lucas talk at the River Court.

It really felt like a brothers scene. And I know they act way beyond their actual ages sometimes, but that scene actually felt like they knew much more about life then they had before. Especially with Nathan telling Lucas about his dream.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) I love the Karen/Haley scene. Awe.

I"m glad there was a visit like that. Keith will never be forgotten. And Haley knew that her wedding gown was supposed to be for Karen when she married Keith. It was so hard for Karen to watch Haley get married again to Nathan and to know she would never have that with Keith. But for Haley to go out of her way to make sure Karen was okay with her wearing that dress. Haley would've actually worn Brooke's first creation.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Here comes the Brooke crap being cruel to Peyton. Hmm, maybe Brooke needs to grow a brain and figure out that she manipulated Lucas/Peyton back in the day to create all of this in the first place. Granted, she is not to blame for Lucas claiming he had feelings for her the second time around. However, Lucas wouldn't have thought he had feelings the second time around without the first time around! The first time around was Brooke manipulating, scheming, disregarding Peyton's feelings. Maybe she should remember all of this but she won't since it's not in her make up to think of anyone else but herself most of the time.

I feel like this scene was Brooke fighting against herself. She had been denying all this time if she still really loved Lucas. And then it was confirming her fears of Peyton being in love with Lucas. Her world was falling apart. Her parents moved away, she had to live with Rachel which did more harm than good. Then she was realizing that her entire life was about to change because everyone is graduating high school. She used all those feelings on Peyton at that one time.

I don't get where Peyton had to say "I Love Lucas again." She always loved him, just this time the feelings can't go away. The feelings are there and they are not going away this time. There is no Jake that can mend her heart, there is no Pete than can help her forget. There is Lucas Scott who is always gonna be there to protect her heart. That's what was most important to her.

Brooke was just down right degrading to Peyton.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Is Brooke delusional enough to think that Peyton lost all her feelings for Lucas? I mean, she does know Lucas and Peyton had something together in the past. Otherwise, she wouldn't have schemed and been a witch keeping them apart.

That's what I don't get about that scene. Brooke thinks that Peyton is going after Lucas because she sees Brooks drifting from Lucas. That's what bothers me about this entire thing. Brooke thinks you can turn feelings on and off. It's always been there, she knows it. That's why whenever Lucas gets close to Peyton, in any capacity, she has a complete meltdown.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) I hate how Brooke slaps Peyton. Does she realize Peyton should have not only slapped her but punched her in the face for what she's done to her in the past?

That was just the last straw. I get that Brooke was mad, but the slap heard around the world? Most of that scene was just uncalled for. Brooke's last hope of hanging onto her easy life of high school was slipping away. Haley has Nathan and now Lucas will have Peyton, where does that leave her? Alone and Bitter.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Wow, Deb telling Dan she was the one who tried to kill him was amazing stuff.

That's when the grief started. When Dan realized he was hating on the wrong person, he killed his brother because of what...jealousy? Because of greed? Keith finally had what he always wanted? I mean come on, it was juvenile of what Dan did, but that's never gonna bring Keith back. Dan finally realized what he had done. He could bring all the remorse he wanted to the table. That would never bring Keith back. Dan could wish it all away, but it will only make the nightmares worse.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Peyton's right... she asked Brooke pointedly if she loved Lucas... Brooke avoided the question. EXACTLY.

Brooke had already decided her and Lucas were over. It was only a matter of time before she would tell him it was over. She thought Peyton would have this satisfaction of knowing things were going south so she could make a move. That's Brooke's thought process. But that was never the case. She just saw everyone out to hurt her and it was never about Brooke and it never would be.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Amazing how it was Dan that Karen told she was pregnant. Wow, what a moment.

Another thing to make Dan have more guilt over shooting Keith. And then he had the NERVE....THE NERVE to want to be there for Karen's baby....KAREN'S BABY THAT SHE HAD WITH KEITH. He never bothered to be there for his own son or even recognize they had a child together. I thought it was a low point for Dan to even mention anything about being there for Karen after what he did. I know Karen doesn't know what he did yet, but just their history together makes me sick that he offers to help her with the baby.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Brooke gave Peyton a second chance? How about Peyton giving Brooke endless chances over the past 10 years? WTF, Brooke. Grow the hell up.

Since when is this about second chances. Did Peyton do something deliberately to lose their friendship? She followed her heart. Yeah, it wasn't convenient, but Brooke always finds the times to be in love with Lucas at the most inconvenient times.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Haley had the pregnancy test!

Now I realize that Karen already knew she was pregnant before the wedding, so the test could not have been hers. That entire summer break between Season 3 and Season 4, it was a battle to figure out who would be pregnant.

[cowgirl08]

Planning to watch season three finale here in a bit. It's OTH drama to a T.

[ds44]

I'm gonna skip right to the finale myself

[break the window]

Originally Posted by cowgirl08 (View Post) Planning to watch season three finale here in a bit. It's OTH drama to a T.

It's like every story that had started in Season 3 boiled to that episode. Everything was finally put into light and no one was safe.

It was also the last episode and the cast/crew didn't know if the show was going to get renewed. So Mark wrote a finale that could not be turned down, imo

[secretk]

Well you guys have posted a lot so sorry that I can't touch on all of the things that had been discussed, but I wanted to mention something.

We've discussed in the past as well Brooke's tendency to play the victim. She loves to hold other people responsible for her feelings. As I've currently doing my own spiritual growth (crazy stuff I know ) I can't stress this enough. No one is perfect and I don't claim that, but she is one of those people that loves to blame the others for the way she feels. I don't comment here whether Lucas and Peyton were right or wrong and it's not even about that. It's the fact that Brooke is always the victim. Things always just happen to her and they hurt her and she is always "surprised". It's part of her personality and to me in Season 3 (especially the end) this played a big part.

Lucas and Peyton are there to blame and they owe her stuff. Yes they are friends, but friendship is two ways street. You can't demand something from someone when you haven't done the same. It's totally different topic my phylosophy that you can't demand anything from people and I won't get into it right now, but in this specific case she acts like she is this poor innocent girl that never saw it comming and it's not like that. And she expects them to take the full responsibility. Actually I don't even know what she wants them to do. She doesn't know it herself to be honest. She just needs to pout, act like a victim to get some sympathy.

[ds44]

Originally Posted by secretk (View Post) Well you guys have posted a lot so sorry that I can't touch on all of the things that had been discussed, but I wanted to mention something. We've discussed in the past as well Brooke's tendency to play the victim. She loves to hold other people responsible for her feelings. As I've currently doing my own spiritual growth (crazy stuff I know ) I can't stress this enough. No one is perfect and I don't claim that, but she is one of those people that loves to blame the others for the way she feels. I don't comment here whether Lucas and Peyton were right or wrong and it's not even about that. It's the fact that Brooke is always the victim. Things always just happen to her and they hurt her and she is always "surprised". It's part of her personality and to me in Season 3 (especially the end) this played a big part. Lucas and Peyton are there to blame and they owe her stuff. Yes they are friends, but friendship is two ways street. You can't demand something from someone when you haven't done the same. It's totally different topic my phylosophy that you can't demand anything from people and I won't get into it right now, but in this specific case she acts like she is this poor innocent girl that never saw it comming and it's not like that. And she expects them to take the full responsibility. Actually I don't even know what she wants them to do. She doesn't know it herself to be honest. She just needs to pout, act like a victim to get some sympathy.

I think you hit the nail on the head. It's not that I think what Lucas or Peyton did was right. I'm not making excuses for her behavior, but I have little tolerance for people that constantly make themselves the victim when they are just as culpable. The writers also did Brooke no favor by making her come off as arrogant, selfish and immature. So, its hard to care about her feelings when you see that she cares so little for anyone elses feelings. It's the same frustration I had with Blair. I couldn't care about her problems because she was so mean and always made everything about herself-never ever taking culpability for her actions.

[cowgirl08]

Ugh watching Dan in this episode makes me sick after killing Keith. I honestly can't remember another show that desperately wanted you to hate a character so much....and boy did they succeed.

Also them using the "walkie talkie" function on their phones like that made sense at all.....I remember when that came out and everyone thought it was soooo cool. Umm you had that already it's called a phone call, except a call didn't have the annoying beeping.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Patricia All the body issues and self doubt that Brooke has every day over how she looks and she goes and does that, it's digusting. I cannot...wait I kind of can. And not only did she post a private picture, she stole the picture. She broke into Rachel's cabinet at her family's cabin and stole it. After Rachel opened up the cabin to everyody, Brooke goes and steals from her. Was that all becuase she caught Brooke..."Brooking" herself? It's kind of rude to go and post someone's picture like that and expect to everything to be okay.

Excellent point about how she got those pictures in the first place. I totally forgot about her stealing them. It's just gross that Brooke went there. What a horrible person she can be. I am so sick of the Brooke apologists, too. Her ridiculous behavior has been going on for the entire series to date. It just ticks me off. The stuff Brooke has done is disgusting.

Originally Posted by Patricia Karen took Keith for granted when she said not to his proposal and Season 1. And then she strung him around like he was always going to be there. You never know what life holds for you. I thought Karen, of all people, would know that. She got pregnant in high school, changing her life forever. And she had Keith around for Lucas' entire life. I get that Karen didn't want to start a relationship with raising Lucas and him being so young. But Lucas isn't so little anymore and she's a grown woman. I think Karen just wanted to blame everyone for everything becuase she was just so bitter. And Whitey is never one to hold back on the truth. Did she think he was going to be like everyone else and feel sorry for her. Did she want everyone to feel sorry for her? It's quite sad really that she just turned into a bitter woman who didn't want to feel anything but hatred for everyone else.

I completely agree. I love how Whitey told her like it was. He knew she felt guilty over stringing Keith along and he didn't hold back from telling her as much. He said she had to let it go, but he never sugar coated the reality and I love that he didn't.

Yes, she had to have realized Whitey wasn't going to tiptoe around her. That's not his style.

It's such a sad situation, though.

Originally Posted by Patricia That's what really hurt. Lucas was grieving Keith and his only outlet was basketball, which he couldn't play anymore becuase he had a heart condition. A heart condition that he got from his father Dan Scott. The man who killed Lucas only, true, father Keith Scott. So it's a really awful circle of death they were in and Lucas telling Karen made things worse. But he couldn't go on life and not tell her. Especially since the condition could kill him at any second when he steps on the court to play.

I felt so sorry for Lucas. Such a horrible situation. But again... Lucas was dealt horrible cards... horrible... but does he misbehave like Brooke when he has every excuse to be just like her? No way.

Originally Posted by Patricia But the thing is, there was no defining thing that Lucas ever told Brooke about his condition or even planned to tell her. Peyton knew, but Peyton knew for a while before everyone else did. To find out your boyfriend has a serious heart condition that prevents him from playing a sport he loves...that's one thing. Finding out from someone else that your boyfriend has a heart condition...[completely different. It doesn't seem like Lucas ever had any intention of telling her.

Which says it all! Brooke said it herself... he never let her completely in. There's a reason for that. He could never totally give his heart to Brooke. Deep down he knew they were not right for each other. He could, without pause, give his entire heart to Peyton. I will never forget in that scene at the party in season 1 where Lucas tells Peyton he wants everything with her... he even points to her heart and his heart... he knew immediately he wanted all of this with Peyton. With Brooke, he ran from anything remotely close to giving his heart to her.

Originally Posted by Patricia I loved that moment for Dan. He used his mayor powers in a good way....then he got arrested. The moment you want to like him then you remember why you don't like him.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Patricia That was amazing for Nathan. He really needed his brother's strength in that game. Even though Lucas couldn't be there physically, Nathan still needed him. In a way Lucas was there This episode is very telling about Nathan Scott. I feel like we never really got a lot of Nathan on the inside, where his heart really is with basketball. We only got that he loves to play and he wants to play for Duke. But we never got why he wanted to play, what was so special about playing basketball for him. I feel like we finally got a piece of it.

Precisely. I love this so much. This is one of my favorite episodes of the series.

Originally Posted by Patricia if you notice, Peyton asked Jake to marry her at the end of her trip. She had to go back to reality. Back to Tree Hill. Jake would stay in Savannah and she would leave. That's why she asked him to marry her. Everything, in Peyton's eyes, would fall apart. She would never get her happy ending. But Peyton was so confused about her feelings that she wanted something easy. Jake was easy, he was right there, waiting for her. She just never really reached out to grab him

Absolutely and Jake knew it too. Jake was smart as a whip concerning Peyton's behavior and what she was really saying.

Originally Posted by Patricia I'm so glad it was someone to point Peyton's feelings out to her that wasn't in their little knit group. Someone on the outside that isn't seeing her everyday. We heard "we're just friends," like a million times. It got annoying. How many times do you prove to yourself that it's wrong before you feel that it's right? Jake new Peyton, he knew how she worked. He knew that she so desperately wanted a family after Ellie passed away. He was pulling for her. And I cannot imagine how he felt to hear Peyton's subconscience tell him who she really wants to be with. When Jake was telling her about "i love you, Lucas" thing, it really tore him up. You could see that when she woke up that he had been thinking for a while. How long was Peyton really wanting to be with Lucas, did she ever really want to be with me. It was all very telling and really tragic to watch them fall apart faster then they were put together.

Precisely. I felt so sorry for Jake. He could have easily taken the easy way out and just married Peyton. He knew her subconscious was yearning for Lucas but she still didn't get it on a conscious level. He knew Peyton loved him enough to never know either if she would have moved away to be with him and all of that. However, Jake was never going to do that to himself or Peyton. He knew the score. It took such great strength and selflessness to make Peyton see the light even as his heart was breaking in two. It's such a heartbreaking situation. That is why I cannot fault Peyton/Jake fans for liking this pairing. This was a great pairing for Peyton, she learned so much and Jake was such a special guy. However, they were not meant to be and didn't have true love. So I can't sit here and ship them because the story told me not to. The story was clear... it was always Lucas/Peyton... always, always, and their story was far too strong and beautiful to be denied.

Originally Posted by Patricia "Halo...get it." MY GOD IS SHE ANYMORE STUPID! She basically made that dress into a work of art for a meuseum and not wear to walk down the asile. The girl never thinks Brooke took Haley's words as insulting her and not the dress she worked hard on. I'm sure Brooke worked very hard on that dress. I mean putting feathers on a dress and making a halo. That's gotta be a lot of work. But for Haley to not like it, come on...feathers. Seriously, go fly with the birds if you want feathers.

Exactly. No doubt Brooke worked hard on that dress. But as usual, she made it about her, playing the victim, instead of realizing she was in the wrong for not listening to Haley. Haley said SIMPLE from the start. I am not sure how that couldn't register immediately with Brooke.

Originally Posted by Patricia Not just the heart condition to get Lucas outside of basketball, but I wanted Lucas to realize that he has more talents then shooting a ball through a hoop. He's such a talented writer and a teacher. He's amazing at doing both. I think Lucas got so caught up in being able to do basketball really well and getting to play for The Ravens for so long that he could do it professionally and he never saw anything else. He got a little much like Nathan in that area. But at least he was able to come down from it. Keith was amazing beyond words. He knew he might not be around when Lucas finally goes to college. Not that Keith expected to not live very long, but who knew what the future held for Karen and Keith. They could've never been as close as they were. Keith wanted to make sure Lucas was taken care of even if he wasn't able to be there. That says a lot of Keith...not as Lucas' uncle, but as Lucas' dad.

Keith for the win... what an amazing father and that's really what he was to Lucas... a true father.

Yes, if you think about it... if Lucas didn't have the heart condition and played basketball in college, he might not have explored his writing. He might have put his actual studies way secondary and made basketball his life instead. He might have majored in something he wasn't passionate about. Also... maybe he wouldn't write his book...

Originally Posted by Patricia They are also showing how they should never be together. Brooke and Lucas were so comfortable in being together that it seemed natural to just wake up and be with that person. I'm not saying that Lucas wanted to be with her. But when you do somethiong for so long, it becomes accustomed. I think Lucas got caught up in the idea of a relationship and everyone seeming happy that he just kept it that way. Then all the stuff with the HCM just catapulted everything into another world where the last thing he cared about was a relationship with Brooke Davis.

Absolutely. Lucas was programmed to just be with Brooke and he never stopped to think about if he really wanted to be with her. He showed that he didn't want it during tough times when he bailed and the last person he wanted to confide in was Brooke. It was telling.

Originally Posted by Patricia It's really telling that when Lucas first went onto the stage with Peyton, he didn't want to do it because he felt stupid. He was joking about it. The minute Peyton mentioned there was a kiss, he got awkard and said "oh". He knew what it meant.

Absolutely and friends don't act like that. Sure, they were exes and that is awkward but it was about so much more than that. I mean, if Nathan and Peyton had to do a kissing scene, even as exes, it would have been only sibling-like at this point no matter what. Lucas knew it could never just be comfortable with Peyton. The freak out was because they knew they had to completely deny their physical presence and romantic feelings or else it would be uncomfortable and even obvious to others. Then we get the scene and even Brooke was looking at them confused.

Originally Posted by Patricia Everyone thought Peyton's "performance" was very emotional and actor driven. But it wasn't a performance at all, nothing for show. She told Lucas exactly how she felt, no filters. And you know what, Lucas knew it. There was no acting, there were no play on words. Lucas saw Peyton's eyes, heard the words out of her mouth. He knew she loved him and it was more than either of them wanted to admit and there it was.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Patricia I never looked at it as a parallel, but you're right it was. It didn't matter that Cooper was older than Rachel or they were from differnet worlds. They didn't go together. Cooper, I think, really looked at Rachel (before he knew her age) as a girl to have fun with. A girl to spend a few months with and move on from without any strings attached. Cooper didn't seem like the guy to settle down, yet. Rachel treated the relationship as something special, something to have long after high school. But how did Rachel know that, she'd never had a relationship with love and respect that would compare to what she thought she could have with Cooper. That's what was so telling. And it's the same thing with Brooke/Lucas. Brooke thought she had the one with Lucas, the guy that would be by her side forever. But when they both came out of the fog, they realized it would never work. But Brooke being so materialstic al the time, she never wanted to admit and lose Lucas. Very telling actually.

Yep, precisely. That is why the second Rachel pounded her fist on the mirror and broke it, Brooke could relate to her. They both wanted guys to love them completely and it was never going to happen. Brooke recognized this immediately which is what caused her to immediately soften with Rachel. She was seeing herself inside of Rachel.

Originally Posted by Patricia Haley knows Nathan wanted his father at the wedding. He just didn't want Dan to know that. And Haley, without saying a word went to invite Dan to the wedding. She wanted Dan there too. She recognized Dan wanted to change. But she still saw the evilness that perpetuated his thoughts towards everyone. That's why she said "God Help You If You Don't Change". That was very telling without Haley knowing what Dan had really done.

It was such a powerful scene!

Originally Posted by Patricia What was wrong with Brooke not doing that in the first place. She made a beautiful gown out of leftover materials. She knew how to sew and make things gorgeous without feathers and a halo. Why does she always have to be extravagant?

Because she's Brooke... I think deep down she has to make something about her, even if it should have nothing to do with her! She just has to cause controversy because the spotlight will continue to be on her.

Originally Posted by Patricia She wanted to be open and honest this time. Peyton never wanted to hurt anyone or make it difficult when she found out her feelings couldn't be hidden anymore. Brooke used that honesty and truth and screwed back into Peyton's heart, hammers, nais and all. Brooke used Peyton's feelings to get back at her for. The whole "he's on the door under me," still it's like she's claiming Lucas as her prize or something. I cannot imagine how she would really feel if Lucas told her that. If Lucas came clean saying "this isn't working" or "there is somebody else," it was always Peyton saying it. Would Brooke have the same reaction to Lucas as she did with Peyton. When it would actually come from the person she dreaded it from the most. Brooke knew the minute Peyton was ready to be with Lucas, it was only a matter of time. It was only thing that Lucas needed. He never saw Brooke as the one, as she did. That's what's so sad about it. it was obvious Lucas didn't want to be there forever, he watned someone else. Yeah, he probably went about the wrong way to do it, but Brooke didn't discourage it either. Brooke fell for the lie when she read the letter that was exactly like Peyton's letter. She ignored everything, for years that said, he isn't the one for you. But she had to have him because he was Lucas Scott. What is so special about Lucas Scott for Brooke Davis?

^^^^^^^^^^^^ ALL of this.

Originally Posted by Patricia I feel like this episode was very telling for a lot of stories. It was an episode that was a long time coming for a lot of people. Nathan and Haley getting married again. Lucas and Peyton's feelings realized. Brooke realizing that not only had she finally lost Lucas, but he was going to be with Peyton. I'm not sure what she would be upset at more. The fact that she would lose Lucas or that she would lose him to Peyton. Everything in this episode was bought out and told in a very unique way. Brooke and Lucas dispeleld why they are not right for each other. They had chose to ignore these reasons for years and when they finally couldn't hurt each other anymore they stopped.

Totally. It is one of my favorite episodes because finally, the series was going in the right direction. For the first three seasons, we witnessed Lucas/Peyton as soulmates with true love but with such a tragic flare because they've had to deny their feelings and convince themselves that they should be with other people. It was so heartbreaking with such a long journey. Finally, they are starting to walk on the same path together.

Nathan and Haley have been through hell and back together and getting married a second time is cementing in their love and signaling that they finally got through the hell in season 2.

Dan is even realizing there's no turning back now. He has to face some big time events in his future and he knows it.

Karen is realizing she has to let go of the guilt and try to find a way to move on with her life.

Whitey is close to retiring from a game he loves so much.

There's just a lot of endings and new beginnings at the closing of this season.

[secretk]

Originally Posted by ds44 (View Post) I think you hit the nail on the head. It's not that I think what Lucas or Peyton did was right. I'm not making excuses for her behavior, but I have little tolerance for people that constantly make themselves the victim when they are just as culpable. The writers also did Brooke no favor by making her come off as arrogant, selfish and immature. So, its hard to care about her feelings when you see that she cares so little for anyone elses feelings. It's the same frustration I had with Blair. I couldn't care about her problems because she was so mean and always made everything about herself-never ever taking culpability for her actions.

Yes in the end it was about that. And yes I felt similar way about Blair. I actually liked Blair even less because Brooke sometimes was funny (not that often, but still) while Blair was bitch most of the time.

Just like you I have problems with such people in real life too. They spend so much blaming everyone else that it makes me go nuts. If they spent half of the energy on finding what in their behavior caused this and the other half in making themselves happy because only they can make themselves happy they would have been on the 7th cloud.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Patricia I"m glad there was a visit like that. Keith will never be forgotten. And Haley knew that her wedding gown was supposed to be for Karen when she married Keith. It was so hard for Karen to watch Haley get married again to Nathan and to know she would never have that with Keith. But for Haley to go out of her way to make sure Karen was okay with her wearing that dress. Haley would've actually worn Brooke's first creation.

Haley is such a sweetheart. It was such a special moment between Haley and literally her mother, Karen, in many ways. Haley and Karen have always had a mother/daughter vibe to me. It was just so selfless and beautiful seeing Haley go to Karen like that. You are right.... Haley would have worn that horrible first dress Brooke made if it meant not hurting Karen. That's what makes Haley's heart so special and lovely.

Originally Posted by Patricia I feel like this scene was Brooke fighting against herself. She had been denying all this time if she still really loved Lucas. And then it was confirming her fears of Peyton being in love with Lucas. Her world was falling apart. Her parents moved away, she had to live with Rachel which did more harm than good. Then she was realizing that her entire life was about to change because everyone is graduating high school. She used all those feelings on Peyton at that one time.

Absolutely. Brooke superficially made it about Lucas and Peyton once again but it was way more than that for Brooke. She had a ton of stuff she was dealing with... she even said as much, too. She also admitted to Lucas this wasn't really about Peyton. Yet, it's interesting how her first instinct is to play that victim and still blame others in order for her to make herself feel better.

Originally Posted by Patricia I don't get where Peyton had to say "I Love Lucas again." She always loved him, just this time the feelings can't go away. The feelings are there and they are not going away this time. There is no Jake that can mend her heart, there is no Pete than can help her forget. There is Lucas Scott who is always gonna be there to protect her heart. That's what was most important to her.

I know! I wish Peyton would have verbally bashed Brooke right then... she should have told her she always loved Lucas but was denying it because BROOKE put her in a situation where she felt like she had to. But Peyton's far too classy to ever go there so she didn't, she took the s$it Brooke was throwing at her instead.

Originally Posted by Patrcia Brooke was just down right degrading to Peyton.

It makes me uncomfortable to watch it go down. I just want to intervene and rip Brooke a new one.

Originally Posted by Patricia That's what I don't get about that scene. Brooke thinks that Peyton is going after Lucas because she sees Brooks drifting from Lucas. That's what bothers me about this entire thing. Brooke thinks you can turn feelings on and off. It's always been there, she knows it. That's why whenever Lucas gets close to Peyton, in any capacity, she has a complete meltdown.

EXACTLY. She is fooling herself into thinking it hasn't always been there during that moment because she knows better! That is why she's been jealous of Lucas/Peyton this entire time. It's not like suddenly she is brought back to what they felt for each other in season 1. No fricken way. She knows there's still feelings. Heck, just a couple episodes ago she even told Peyton she knows Lucas still loves her. This is not fricken shocking in the least for her. She knows better!

Originally Posted by Patricia That was just the last straw. I get that Brooke was mad, but the slap heard around the world? Most of that scene was just uncalled for. Brooke's last hope of hanging onto her easy life of high school was slipping away. Haley has Nathan and now Lucas will have Peyton, where does that leave her? Alone and Bitter.

Definitely. When she slapped Peyton I was shouting at my screen for Peyton to punch her lights out. I hated seeing that slap so much. Peyton should have kicked the living s$it out of her multiple times in the past but never did.

Originally Posted by Patricia Brooke had already decided her and Lucas were over. It was only a matter of time before she would tell him it was over. She thought Peyton would have this satisfaction of knowing things were going south so she could make a move. That's Brooke's thought process. But that was never the case. She just saw everyone out to hurt her and it was never about Brooke and it never would be.

That's the one thing I wish Mark might have done differently... he could have delayed Jake revealing to Peyton that she still loves Lucas and this entire process until after Brooke officially broke up with Lucas. She was going to! She literally told Peyton she didn't miss him while he was gone. She was on the road to breaking up with him. It was only a matter of time. It had nothing to do with Lucas/Peyton so she shouldn't have cared that Peyton still had feelings for Lucas or what went on when she thought she was dying. All the more, she should have realized she was right in wanting to break up with Lucas. She didn't have to take her own reality out on Peyton but once again, she had to play the victim.

Originally Posted by Patricia Since when is this about second chances. Did Peyton do something deliberately to lose their friendship? She followed her heart. Yeah, it wasn't convenient, but Brooke always finds the times to be in love with Lucas at the most inconvenient times.

Which was more about screwing Peyton over than anything else.

Originally Posted by Patricia Now I realize that Karen already knew she was pregnant before the wedding, so the test could not have been hers. That entire summer break between Season 3 and Season 4, it was a battle to figure out who would be pregnant.

That would have been so fun trying to play detective between seasons 3 and 4!

[ds44]

Originally Posted by secretk (View Post) Yes in the end it was about that. And yes I felt similar way about Blair. I actually liked Blair even less because Brooke sometimes was funny (not that often, but still) while Blair was bitch most of the time. Just like you I have problems with such people in real life too. They spend so much blaming everyone else that it makes me go nuts. If they spent half of the energy on finding what in their behavior caused this and the other half in making themselves happy because only they can make themselves happy they would have been on the 7th cloud.

Yes, I think how we relate to people in real color our ability to appreciate certain characters.

[cowgirl08]

I'll admit watching Dan break down at Keith's grave after realizing he killed his own brother for no reason is heartbreaking, but I remembering thinking in that moment how hard it would be to ever redeem this character. Would he kill himself to exact revenge?

Opps Luke, "Did you kiss her again?" As much as you try to tell yourself it didn't mean anything Lucas...it did. He doth protest too much. He is scared and using Brooke as a place holder to avoid facing it.....it sucks for Brooke. She is a bitch but damn the girl just wants to be wanted so bad.....my feeling sorry for her ended pretty quick after this though if I remember correctly. I will delete that sentence if this isn't the season finale I am thinking of and if so I am effectively talking to myself right now.

Through all the drama Nathan and Haley are there, steady and true. I love how they become the emotional rock of this show at such a young age.

Rachel and Cooper for that matter.

And of course Nathan goes in after them because that's what he does! Blue.

The whole pregnancy thing is kinda ridiculous soap drama haha which of the three is really pregnant? Three purses, one pregnancy. Who will it be? I can see the promo now.

Ugh and then Haley screaming on the bridge so sad. And we had to wait a whole summer to find out his fate! Not cool show not cool!

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by secretk (View Post) Yes in the end it was about that. And yes I felt similar way about Blair. I actually liked Blair even less because Brooke sometimes was funny (not that often, but still) while Blair was bitch most of the time. Just like you I have problems with such people in real life too. They spend so much blaming everyone else that it makes me go nuts. If they spent half of the energy on finding what in their behavior caused this and the other half in making themselves happy because only they can make themselves happy they would have been on the 7th cloud.

Honestly, I am ripping Brooke to shreds right now LOL but I can't hate her overall. Oh, I can't stand her behavior and could never be friends with someone like her... but there are some good traits inside of Brooke that do come out later... it's just her process takes a long time. Right now she's at her worst. She is funny too. Sophia has this face you can't help but like on the screen no matter what type of character she is playing.

Blair, I totally agree, never truly got there. She wasn't a good person overall and that never really changed. Serena might have screwed up over and over again but you felt her heart at all times.

Yes, this victim crap I cannot take on TV and especially in real life.