[Jamie Witter]

*ducks tomatoes*

Now that all of you have that out of your system - hear me out!

I LOVE LORELAI...most of the time. More during S1. Now, not so much.

I really do love her, though. I think she's witty, beautiful, cool, fun, smart, brave, a great mom...I could go on.

But she can be a real bitch sometimes and I know everyone, even her most loyal fans, must have found her to be annoying or irksome in a few choice episodes (especially in the latters seasons).

I was chatting with a few people and we decided that we need a place to bitch and moan about Lorelai's other irksome qualities...she's self-centered, immature, holds grudges, uses Luke like a dishcloth, again, I could go on.

Anyway, this is the place to complain about Lorelai Victoria Gilmore. Because when we start disliking one of the main characters, that's a sign of trouble.

Please note that this thread is solely for the purpose of not appreciating the CHARACTER of Lorelai and not a place to insult, bash or diss to LAUREN GRAHAM the lovely actress who plays the part.

[ 01-29-2004: Message edited Jamie Witter ]

[IndianSpice]

Oh, wonderful intro post, James. I’m glad that you established concretely that this thread is a place to rant and complain about Lorelai, not Lauren. I think it’s great that you started this thread; it takes a lot of courage to do something like this. So amen, sister friend!

Now let me start off by saying I love Lor, I really do. She’s an amazing character who never fails to make me smile. But along with those smiles, come some twitchy, squicked out moments. As much as I *love* Lorelai (so much more in S1), there have been many times during the course of the later seasons of GG that I too have been thoroughly annoyed by her. I mean, her character is brilliant and I love the fact that she’s flawed, but sometimes these little things bug me. The same applies for Rory, as someone so eloquently put it they’ve both been on a PMS spree since Yale-days started.

So before you kill Jamie, some other posters, or me, just hear us out and think about it.

*hopes no arguments break out*

[ 12-29-2003: Message edited IndianSpice ]

[toughfluff *]

I was just talking about this with my friend!

And you're right, Lauren is a wonderful actress and she's playing Lorelai as best as she can. I can imagine worse fate if it's in the hands of less expert actresses. I think the problem lies in the character development of Lorelai.

I have a lot of problems with Lorelai lately, but all of them boil down to one reason: the character lack the ability to grow. The most tiresome part was her relationship with Emily. In S1, I understand the hostility and see why she's resistent. But dear god it's been 3 years! You'd think three years of mother-daughter moments (ie shopping for Rory's birthday present, spa, the time Emily stood up for her when Chris came over) would lessen the hostility and she would stop treating friday night dinners as a CHORE! Maybe there are more enjoyable things to do on a friday night, but Emily deserves more respect.

And yeah, she also extremely possessive of Luke. Look woman, if you do not wish to pursue anything romantic with the man, GIVE HIM UP! Either she sucks it up and admit she likes him, or stop using the "I'm only concerned as a friend" line whenever Luke decides to have a life. Who the hell he decides to date or marry is none of Lorelai's business! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Pri is right, I didn't post this to pick a fight. But to point out a very disturbing fact. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[ 12-29-2003: Message edited toughfluff * ]

[~Kitty]

*warning: I'm grouchy*

Ya know, we can complain about Lorelai at the 'Lorelai thread'. It makes no sense to have two Lorelai threads, especially when we're voting over there whether or not to keep the thread because we have a Lauren Graham board. If we're voting on whether or not to keep one thread, keeping two probably isn't too likely.

On another note.. Jess, Dean, Rory, and Paris drive me up the wall sometimes too. Can I start an unappreciative thread on them? I'd love to start a Jess Unappreciative thread.. we can complain that even though he's cute, he's also an ass! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

And I swear if any bashing is done on Lauren's part.....

[ 12-29-2003: Message edited ~Kitty ]

[Still Reeka]

James, first off, [img]smilies/hug.gif[/img] Thank you.

I would also like to restate that I love Lauren Graham.

Lorelai on the other hand...

I don't know when I stopped liking Lorelai. I didn't really have a eureka moment, but the one part that really made me cringe was during Fran's funeral. It wasn't cute or funny. It was disrespectful and I almost turned it off.

I used to be a huge Java Junkie, but I'm not anymore. I don't like the way she treats Luke. I also am in the odd minority who thinks that Lorelai was a lot bitchier and more horrible to Nicole than Nicole was to her. Nicole has every right to be in the diner. She's his freaking wife. As TF said, Lorelai needs to make up her mind.

Apologies if I've offended, I'm a former JJ and a huge Luke fan who because of Lorelai's behavior is now somewhat of a Nicole-defender. It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who doesn't think Lorelai is cute when she puts on her "princess" tiara.

That's it. Ducks tomatoes along with the others. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[toughfluff *]

I guess the reason that Jamie didn't put this in the Lorelai thread is beacuse that's a Lorelai "appreciation" thread, which isn't exactly the tone of this. I guess it can exist either in the LG bard or the GG board. But since we're discussing the character of this show, it might be more fitting to have it here.

Second, yes, Paris, Jess, Taylor, Dean all have their irksom moments. But since this show is call the Gilmore Girls, it shows a much bigger problem when the title character isn't as well written as it should be. The peripheral characters can afford to be irksom and attract less attention. Trust me, we'd start complaining Paris's off-character C-SPAN moment if this is called The Gellar Show.

[~Kitty]

Cool, so I can start a Jess unappreciative thread: Why do they keep torturing us by bringing him back! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

yeah, Lorelai can get annoying. But if she was perfect.. it would be boring to watch. Like Rory, she's boring. They try to play her off as this goody two shoes, little Miss Perfect. Boring! Yeah, she can be bitchy too, but then she looses her backbone and becomes a wuss again.

[Still Reeka]

Originally posted by ~Kitty: <STRONG>Cool, so I can start a Jess unappreciative thread: Why do they keep torturing us by bringing him back!</STRONG>

Kitty, believe me I will be one of the first posters on that thread. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I understand what you're saying that you don't want Lorelai being a wuss. Trust me, I do admire her backbone and her strength. Season One has plenty of the moments. She swallowed her pride to ask her parents for money, she took charge in the hospital when her dad was sick, she was a good friend to Luke (helping him paint the diner) and she was a good friend to Sookie (the blind date). Lorelai was complicated and I liked her for it.

It's not the same now IMHO. She's not complicated. She's whiny. She's not nice to Luke. She bitches and moans when she doesn't get her way (either not being asked to play the part in the portrait...or not liking the restaurant where Digger took her...or not liking that Nicole was in the picture).

If this was a Season One Lorelai Unappreciation Thread, I would be shocked at its existence. But this new Lorelai is different. Not boring, not complicated, just childish.

[ 12-29-2003: Message edited Still Reeka ]

[Nate the Lizaphile]

I hate to admit that I haven't loved Lorelai as much this season as I have in seasons 1-3. Before I say anything though, let me say despite what has been done to mute Lorelai's character, be it by writing or pressure by certain fan groups (not here but the misguided morons over at talk.thewb.com and elswhere), Lauren is still playing Lorelai as perfectly as she did in the pilot, I have nothing to complain about with her.

That said however, I haven't been that happy with Lorelai this season (and to a larger extent Rory, but that's another matter). She hasn't made any progress at all this year with Emily when it comes to their relationship, and this whole Jason thing is coming off pretty awful. When I watched their date at the grocery store in "Koppel", I seriously thought it had switched viewpoints from 'WB family drama' to 'awful studio-produced 'indie-like' film', the whole setup was awful. And I'm getting sick of waiting for anything to happen with her and Luke. I understand she still has that stubborn pride she took with her when she left Hartford at sixteen, but we haven't seen anything happen between those two since the car accident. They healed things up and moved on. I want some drama, but I'm afraid the writers are too chickensh-- to create any between her and Luke. For the first time, I'm starting to feel like I did when Ally McBeal started to fall apart in season four; the writers and Amy aren't writing for their audience anymore, but the awards commitees instead. And it's showing in being shut-out since last year and switching to comedy.

I want Lorelai to start to justify her behavior once again, and state what she has to say without being the bitch ASP and DP are starting to write her as. I'm sick of seeing four seasons of character development falling apart because of what seems to be 'popular opinion' from 'fan feedback'. We want progress, in both Emily and Lorelai's relationship. I want to see Sookie as more than 'wacky friend'. I want Lorelai to be sort of a second mother to Lane and Paris as they get knee-deep in this college stuff and don't have good mothers to look up to.

But I feel like sometimes ASP is writing on auto-pilot, and I'm sick of it seeping into Lorelai's life.

Just my 2¢, feel free to agree/disagree, and edit as may be.

Kitty - I agree with you about Jess, although I'm more partial to S2 Jess and Paris hooking up as you may know from my Dipperness. Season three Jess was beyond unbearable and I cringed each time I saw him. Paris/Jess friendship at least, another potential plotline stuffed down by WB brass who thought we wanted to see bad dime-store romantic sparks between Rory and Jess (sighs).

[ 12-29-2003: Message edited Nate the Lizaphile ]

[A. B. Normal]

*deep breath*

First, I totally 100% understand why this thread was started. However, since I get annoyed by at least two Gilmore Girls characters each episode, and some (Taylor and Jess) at the mere thought of them being on my screen, I think this thread should be titled something different. Simply called the Character Unappreciation Thread and I think you could avoid any comotion on this board. (ie. starting an Unappreciation thread for every single character)

Originally posted by Nate the Lizaphile: <STRONG>But I feel like sometimes ASP is writing on auto-pilot, and I'm sick of it seeping into Lorelai's life.</STRONG>

Second, couldn't agree with this more. More than 95% of the time I blame the writers for my not liking a character. Lorelai can annoy me when she is written as someone who is annoyed by every living breathing thing. The same can be said for Rory. They used to get a kick out of mocking people occasionaly, in a good hearted 'Let's have a laugh' way. Now it just comes off as bratty. The characters are losing a lot of heart because of this.

And oh yeah, I love Lauren. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ 12-30-2003: Message edited A. B. Normal ]

[~Kitty]

That's the problem with them shifting the show to comedy. In comedy, the jokes are crude, sarcastic, bitchy and well.. something you would never say in public. So that's how they are writing Lorelai.. to make her funny, the writers are making her crude and bitchy. It's not fair, 'cause Lorelai is more than just a joke-a-minute character. She has more substance, more emotion behind her words.. but lately they have been writing the show as a one sided comedy hour.

Now, I still love the show.. but I wish they would have switched over to drama, which would show Lorelai as being more complicated and having emotion.

I think it's Rory who I'm really not liking this season. I thought college and leaving home was supposed to have you grow up.. I guess the writers see that differently.

[Jamie Witter]

Originally posted by A. B. Normal: <STRONG>*deep breath* Simply called the Character Unappreciation Thread and I think you could avoid any comotion on this board. (ie. starting an Unappreciation thread for every single character)</STRONG>

This makes much sense to me. I was thinking about making this a "Lorelai and Rory Unappreciation Thread" anyway but since the quality of GG writing is dwindling, I see how we'll have more cause for complaints for more characters. I don't mind this idea at all.

[A. B. Normal]

Cool. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Thanks for agreeing with the title change!

[ 12-30-2003: Message edited A. B. Normal ]

[SamiJoe]

As everyone else said:Yes, I love Lauren.

And most of the time I love Lorelai. But there's some moments when you just sit there and think "How does she figure that she has any authority over this?!" In fact, you wonder that alot, through all the seasons not just this one. But when Amy S-P was writing, she was explaining herself and apoligizing. I miss that. Like in Nick&Nora/Sid&Nancy, she says

LORELAI: I am sorry that I put you in this position.

She's talking about Max, by the way. After all that time, she said sorry. And I loved that. Between Cinnamon's Wake and N&N/S&N, Amy only wrote 8 episodes. But anyway...

In conclusion, I used to be ok with the way Lorelai acted, because it was human, and sometimes, we're all rude. But then she apoligized. That's the key word here. She was sorry. ::sighs:: I miss that.

[Surya]

I agree with most of the above, Lorelai can be the most self involved whiner ever written for television at time...but....

The fact is, I LOVE flawed characters. I adore them. They are human and complicated. I know someone said that Lor isn't complicated this season but I think if you take a step back and look at the whole show instead of just her you can understand her a bit better. For the better part of her life she's taken care of Rory and worked at the Independence, in one swoop that is over. She's a middle aged woman all on her own. Her safety net (Luke) went off and married someone while she was out of the country. Sure she never made a move but neither did he. Her first love loved her and left her (basically choosing a new family over the one he had JUST promised to be there for) and her mom is a bitch (and I love Emily too but let's be perfectly candid here).

Add on top of all that the fact that she's trying to start a new business on a less than shoe string budget and you have plenty of explaination as to why she's not in the best of moods lately.

As for Jess....the character I love to hate. He was such a tool last season but completely realistic. I could see why he was acting the way he was. He ridden with flaws, all in all a very human character. Milo did an amazing job with it. I hated seeing what he was doing to Rory but Milo managed to convey with subtle looks and body language what the character was really about (and this is coming from a card carrying Trory fan...lol)

And as I jump off my soapbox I will make sure to be careful of all the rotten fruit around my feet...lol