[Slayerfan714]

Originally Posted by ollibear (View Post) Oh, how I wish!

It would be fun.

If you get called to join, just promise you'll tell 'em about me too!

I agree. The look Emmett gives Zarra when he steps away from John speaks volumes. Emmett has some street smarts. I don't think Zarra would be Emmett's first choice for interaction with the hearing world.

Yes. He did not approve of Zarra.

But say Zarra's father returns to KC, and Bay decides to join the two of them in creating some street art, Emmett would be right there by Bay's side, if they were a couple. It would be interesting to see Emmett take an unnecessary risk. That wasn't in Emmett's character at the poker game when he first met Wilke. I wonder if anything would bring that out in Emmett, or if he is just too smart to be so reckless. If Emmett is going to take a risk, he is going to do it for something worth it.

I could see this happening. Maybe Bay feels like she earned a bit of rebellion even as she did turn herself around.

And Emmett doesn't normally take risks; you're right and I think Bay would be someone he'd do it for.

Yes, Zarra was definitely Bay's love interest of the season. As you say, not in the romantic sense, but yes, she was in the relationship sense. I always find that interview with Lizzy Weiss interesting, where she says Zarra was originally planned to be a male character, but she could not pass up working with Tania Raymonde. If Zarra had been a male character, I believe Emmett's anguish would have been greater. Both the episode where Bay asks to move in with Zarra and the episode where Bay runs away with Zarra would have been much more highly charged, if Zarra was a male. Everyone would have been more on edge: John, Kathryn, Toby, Daphne, Emmett. I imagine Bay would have lost her virginity at that time, because it would be highly unusual for Bay to both live with and run away with a man and not consummate the relationship. The reunion scene between Emmett & Bay at the border to Mexico would have felt different, too, if Zarra had been male.

I agree with all of this. In some ways, they kept that part of the story the same. Bay was "attracted" to Zarra, but there was no romance. But had Zarra been a male, it would have been a very different kind of attraction and I do think Bay would have lost her virginity to male Zarra.

Especially since IIRC the spoilers had dubbed male Zarra "smokin' hot."

I think she would listen to herself a lot more. And either Zarra would like that and their friendship would grow deeper, or Zarra would not like that. The latter indicating that Zarra originally only liked Bay for how she could manipulate her. My gut tends to say that Zarra would like Bay more, as someone who is strong in her identity. But I am not sure.

I am not sure either. I did think Zarra gave Bay perspective about not lying, but she was not upfront about Bay bailing both her and Mouse out. So, it did seem like Zarra was just using Bay.

I cannot envision their storyline enough to know yet.

Haha. Me either.

What if Zarra really IS one bad cat? What if she comes back into the Kennish world, just to open the door for her crew to hurt them and rob them blind? Bay seemed to trust Zarra, but it is not beyond the realm of possibility for a character like that to be bad. Once you open the door to someone like that, allow her to know where you live, let her see your vulnerabilities, you really can endanger yourself and those you love. Bay would regret that, if it should happen. I could see Emmett getting hurt trying to protect them.

That would be a way to go, but I think Lizzy likes shades of gray, the yin and the yang of a person, the good and bad. I don't think she likes one-note characters, although Coto turned out to be major scum with no redeeming qualities, so, perhaps they would write Zarra as that bad.

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by Slayerfan714 (View Post) It would be fun. If you get called to join, just promise you'll tell 'em about me too!

You know I would...(sigh), if only I could!

I keep thinking Lizzy Weiss and crew will see your wonderful fan fiction and invite you to join them. I believe that.

That would be a way to go, but I think Lizzy likes shades of gray, the yin and the yang of a person, the good and bad. I don't think she likes one-note characters, although Coto turned out to be major scum with no redeeming qualities, so, perhaps they would write Zarra as that bad.

True. Like us, the writers do like shades of gray. I wonder if Zarra could open the Kennish family up to significant danger, and yet, still maintain her shade-of-gray status.

What made me consider the idea of Zarra returning to take advantage of Bay is that, at the end of 1C, my older sister wondered how the Kennish family got off so lucky. My sister said that in the real world if you are wealthy and you invite someone like that into your home they will most certainly rob you blind.

So unless Zarra is just that exception to the rule (and she really is a good girl worthy of Bay's trust), something bad would likely happen to the Kennish family, because Bay associated with Zarra. Since it hasn't happened yet, I had the idea that it still might when Zarra returns to KC. It would be interesting.

[Slayerfan714]

Originally Posted by ollibear (View Post) You know I would...(sigh), if only I could! I keep thinking Lizzy Weiss and crew will see your wonderful fan fiction and invite you to join them. I believe that.

I know.

Aw. And I think they'd probably just be like But that's just the critic in me.

Sometimes I DO wonder what they'd think of it though.

True. Like us, the writers do like shades of gray. I wonder if Zarra could open the Kennish family up to significant danger, and yet, still maintain her shade-of-gray status. What made me consider the idea of Zarra returning to take advantage of Bay is that, at the end of 1C, my older sister wondered how the Kennish family got off so lucky. My sister said that in the real world if you are wealthy and you invite someone like that into your home they will most certainly rob you blind. So unless Zarra is just that exception to the rule (and she really is a good girl worthy of Bay's trust), something bad would likely happen to the Kennish family, because Bay associated with Zarra. Since it hasn't happened yet, I had the idea that it still might when Zarra returns to KC. It would be interesting.

Yes, I know what you mean. It is correct that in the real world, Zarra probably would have scammed them somehow.

It could definitely still happen. Even if Zarra isn't as bad as we are speculating she could be, I could see her mentioning the wealth Bay comes from and it just going from there. Something Zarra just set in motion not even meaning to.

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by Slayerfan714 (View Post) Even if Zarra isn't as bad as we are speculating she could be, I could see her mentioning the wealth Bay comes from and it just going from there. Something Zarra just set in motion not even meaning to.

That's a good point! Zarra seemed to have a moral code (part of the reason Bay gravitated towards her), but those characters she hung out with may or may not possess the same sense of right and wrong.

I could see someone like Mouse or Eightball selling out the Kennish family and organizing something heinous.

We had something like that happen in Richmond on New Year's Day in 2006. It was TRAGIC. I didn't even know the family, beyond seeing them when I shopped in their toy store or listening to their music at local venues. But when the murders happened, it ripped out my heart.

I know Lizzy Weiss has tweeted that no one will ever be murdered or raped on her show, and that's reassuring. There is enough of that on TV, Switched at Birth does not need to delve into it. But Lizzy Weiss and her writers are so good at exploring social issues, and this one (described in this article) is so critical for us, as a society, to solve, that I would like to see her tackle it somehow.

The Harvey Family | Cover Story | Style Weekly - Richmond, VA local news, arts, and events.

Hell has a place on earth, it turns out. So there's no need to recount in detail what happened in the basement of the Harvey family's home on 31st Street in Woodland Heights on New Year's Day 2006. We'll refresh only as a point of entry: Bryan Harvey had walked out of the house to get the newspaper that morning, leaving the door ajar. Moments later, he and his wife, Kathryn, and their two little girls, were bound and gagged in the basement — fearing the worst, no doubt, and ultimately facing something far more hellish. Maybe this isn't the story you expected, a story that would jump-start 2007 on a more hopeful note, one that focused on accomplishment, strides the city had made or the oft-alleged return of the center city. It would certainly be easier to divert our attention to a hero who made things markedly better in 2006, someone alive and vibrant, who looked up from these pages with eyes that inspire. We're left with something far more painful: A family who would live less than a day together in 2006. What happened Jan. 1, 2006, was excruciating and inexplicable: a quadruple homicide that turned out to be just one stop along a murderous rampage in the days that followed. In a span of five days, seven Richmonders, two families, were brutally murdered at the hands of two ex-cons from Philadelphia. All for what amounted to a couple of laptop computers. Chances are you're familiar with the horrid, graphic details — the duct tape, the claw hammer, the kitchen knives. You've probably dreaded the anniversary spread in the newspaper, the TV news cameras stationed in front of the boarded-up house, the replayed footage of Ricky Javon Gray and Ray Dandridge in shackles. It isn't easy to look back. And we anguished over naming the Harveys as Style Weekly's Richmonders of the Year for 2006. Would it seem cold? Inappropriate? Sensational? In the end, we felt we had no choice. The Harvey family has become a symbol of sorts, a painful reminder that no matter how far we think we've come, we haven't come far enough. Richmonders have responded with good works in many ways, through memorials and foundations, a children's run and a scholarship fund. Yet this awful tragedy also forced us to rethink what we thought we knew about crime and violence, and whether we could, in reality, protect ourselves and our loved ones from them. And then we all proceeded to lock our doors just a little bit tighter. AT STYLE, the newsroom discussions leading up to this issue were difficult. Some who work here knew the family. Many lived nearby or shopped at the Carytown toy store World of Mirth, owned by Kathryn Harvey, 39. Bryan, 49, was a well-known musician, singer and songwriter in numerous bands including brink-of-fame band House of Freaks in the late 1980s and early '90s, and familiar to colleagues who knew him and writers who covered his music. It seemed almost everyone knew someone who attended school with Stella, 9, at Fox Elementary, or Ruby, 4, at Second Presbyterian Child Care Center. We struggled with the uncomfortable racial overtones, some of which spilled into public debate last year during the news media's coverage of the Harveys. Why was so much attention focused on the white family murdered the same day as a black father, Lewis Casper, and his 17-year-old daughter, Roicana? By Dec. 29, 81 people had been murdered in Richmond in 2006, but the four Harveys were talked and written about more than the other 77 victims combined. You can argue that the heinousness and the randomness of the crime was the sole reason. But privately, few people can deny that skin color and economic class played a part. And something so awful rarely occurs arbitrarily, to middle-class families, in middle-class neighborhoods, to people with no connection whatsoever to their killers. This isn't to say the Jan. 6 murders of Mary and Percyell Tucker and Ashley Baskerville on the South Side were any less tragic. But you could at least understand a connection. It wasn't random — Gray and Dandridge had both dated Baskerville, Mary Tucker's daughter, who waited in the van while the two men murdered the Harveys. And there were no children involved in that crime. There is no justification for such killings, and unfortunately the Tucker/Baskerville family became known as the "second family" bound and murdered by Gray and Dandridge. Unrelated to the Gray and Dandridge killing spree, the Caspers, murdered in their South Richmond home Jan. 1, barely registered a blip in the local news. Their losses, along with the other Richmonders murdered in 2006, are no less tragic. Symbolically, the Harveys represented something different. Unlike people who feel trapped in the inner city's economic prison with nowhere to go, the Harveys chose to raise a family in the city, in an aging trolley suburb wedged between the poor and the disenfranchised. They chose to send their children to city schools. They were educated, engaged, culturally aware — and they had options. In essence, they were the answer to that great question: Can Richmond attract and lure back those young middle-class families who so often flee for the suburbs? To look at the Harveys, the answer was yes. They were the new faces of this city's residential renaissance, the one great hope for counteracting the increasingly oppressive economic disparity that plagues Richmond. "To still enjoy rock music, to open a store called World of Mirth — they were our prototype for the good life, for the way to do it right," says Donelson Forsyth, professor of leadership studies and social psychology at the University of Richmond. "Events like this challenge your worldview," Forsyth says. "And I think it shook a lot of people's worldview. How much badness is out there? Should I strive to be faithful to my community, or should I strive to look out for my own self-interests?" Indeed, the Harvey murders affected a segment of the population that typically goes untouched by violence and murder. The Rev. Ben Campbell is pastoral director at Richmond Hill, a historic monastery and retreat, where residents pray daily for the region. He says the Harvey tragedy symbolically exposed the polarity of two Richmonds. "We live in at least two cities, and maybe more," he says — cities divided by economic classes that reflect the longstanding racial divide between black and white. "But it's really no longer a race line," Campbell says, "it's an economic line." For now, the economic line coincides with race. Most of the city's poverty is consigned to black families: Of 113,108 African-Americans who live in the city, 29,907, or 26.4 percent, live below the poverty line, according to U.S. Census data. As for crime, of the 1,530 inmates in Richmond City Jail, 1,359 inmates, or 89 percent, are black. That's the kind of environment that Gray and Dandridge knew — the inner city of Philadelphia, broken homes, the inside of prison cells. Losing the Harveys has brought a level of understanding that transcends both sides of the racial divide — not physically, but spiritually. More than anything else, it serves to remind us the problems of our oft-forgotten society can come roaring back to get us. We can push them away, move away from them, build our individual fortunes and live the American dream, but somewhere desperation is boiling over. Losing the Harveys should remind us, Campbell says, that "we've got this incredible indifference, which will kill us." The reality of poverty in the African-American community is unrelenting. It spawns all that troubles the inner city: broken, single-parent families, a depleted industrial economy, a school system overwhelmed with children of uneducated, often illiterate parents. During Richmond's economic heyday, tobacco warehouses in Shockoe Bottom supplied work to those who wanted it. Today, what are the options if you live in the city with no means of transportation and little education? Families such as the Harveys weren't going to fix all of that. They were building something in Richmond, though — something positive, something that offered a glimmer of hope. Eventually, perhaps, with more families like the Harveys moving in, this city might veer onto a path that decentralizes the poverty and despair. Take the public schools. If only there was a way to decrease the concentration of poor students to something less than 40 percent per school, Campbell says. Other cities such as Raleigh, N.C., have achieved this through regional efforts, by redrawing some school districts based on socioeconomics instead of geography. Education, Campbell says, is the best tool for breaking the cycle of oppression. "Our prayer is that two things will come out of this: One, people identify with one another and with the pain of the collective people and collective pain of society. We are one people," Campbell says. "Second, people commit themselves to the creation of a just and healthy society." One of the deepest roots holding back progress, he says, is what he calls "the myth of the American dream." He explains, "Life is one of opportunities misused as selfishness, freedom misunderstood as escape from responsibility." When desegregation created "white flight" to the suburbs in the 1970s, people left Richmond in pursuit of the American dream — which to most meant living in safe, gated communities with neighbors of similar economic means, similar education and, perhaps unwittingly, similar skin color. The Woodland Heights community represents something of a hodgepodge of income and diverse backgrounds, a place where the new Richmond middle class collides with the old. The neighborhood's civic association contacted the Rev. Sylvester L. Turner, director of outreach for Hope in the Cities in Richmond, to help them deal with the racial tensions that bubbled up after the Harvey murders. "There was an attitude that showed up along racial lines," he says. "We're easy to point fingers. The overall lesson: We all have to work together because it's our problem. It's not their problem. It's not their fault." For Kristin Hott, the brutality of what happened to her close friends the Harveys opened her eyes to a world of suffering that she discovered has many citizens. Hott teaches adult education classes in Gilpin Court, where her students often share similarly tragic stories. Before the Harvey tragedy, she would listen and offer compassion, but afterward, she understood the sisterhood of suffering. Her husband, Johnny Hott, played a New Year's Eve gig with Bryan Harvey the night before he was murdered, and he was questioned aggressively by detectives in the immediate aftermath. The tragedy affected the Hotts on many levels. "I never knew how to connect to [the students] beyond listening to them," Kristin Hott says. "When I went back to class in January, probably January 10, I realized that this was one of the most healing places I could be," she says. "It crossed socioeconomic barriers." Eventually, Hott found a way to cope, if you can call it that, or at least put what happened into some context that keeps her from falling apart. Subduing the anger and pain may never be possible, but Hott kept reminding herself that even Dandridge and Gray were children once. They didn't come into this world as murderers. "I don't believe in pure evil. If you think this is an unfortunate accident, then you haven't learned anything at all," Hott says. "If there is anything that we have learned, we have to pay more attention to how things get to that point." Hott, along with Heidi Abbott and Carter Carpin, all close friends of the Harveys, are launching a nonprofit, Not With These Hands. Its mission is to try to understand and address violence. "They were babies once — I would have taken care of them," Hott says of Dandridge and Gray. "What happened to them along the way is not just their parents' responsibility; it's all of our responsibilities. We didn't think that Gray and Dandridge were coming to that community that day, but they did. You know there is going to be a next time, so what are you doing to stop that?" In addition to Not With These Hands, which launches Jan. 30, there has been an outpouring of response since the loss of the Harveys. There is the Bryan and Kathryn Harvey Family Memorial Endowment, which has already issued grants to the nonprofits Art 180, Comfort Zone Camp and the School of the Performing Arts in the Richmond Community in honor of the Harveys' commitment to music and art. Earlier this year, friends and family also launched the first Ruby's Run in Byrd Park on Nov. 4, with proceeds going to the endowment. The Carytown Merchants Association decided to hold its new outdoor New Year's Eve Party Sunday night in part to honor the Harveys. "They were an important part of Carytown," says Heather Teachey, owner of Que Bella and incoming president of the association. Organizers closed down the streets and hoisted a ball atop the New York Deli, in hopes of providing a fun, safe outdoor event that could attract families. It's still a little much to comprehend for Mark Harvey, the brother of Bryan who often speaks on behalf of the family. He's tried to set an example, if possible, that life has to go on despite the tragedy, but he's not sure he'll ever be able to make sense of it. "I don't know that we will ever be able to process it, or ever want to," Mark Harvey says. "With this kind of [tragedy], this thing could unravel everything." So many uncomfortable feelings and emotions bubble to the surface when the topic turns to what happened, how it happened, to whom it happened. There's the media coverage, not excluding Style, which many people thought made matters worse. For Chris Zechini, everything's a reminder. "My daughter was spending the night there that night," Zechini says. "It's been hard for them. My middle daughter was like a mother hen to Ruby. Stella slept over here a lot. I haven't dealt with it that well at all. I've been in denial for a year." Zechini, who owns a downtown catering and vending business, tires of the exaggeration of the Harveys being the "perfect family." "They weren't the perfect family, they were a great family," he says. "Oh my God, they weren't perfect. They were a typical couple trying to raise a family." And there are so many what-ifs that plague the Harveys' close friends and family members. "The door was open," Zechini says. "As something as stupid as the door was open. But because it was so random, it was going to happen to somebody on that street. Bryan went out and got the paper, and that was it ... a moment's difference." The randomness and brutality of the violence, especially against the children, left Alane Cameron Miles, minister of membership and outreach at First Unitarian Universalist Church, unable to wrap her mind around the Harvey murders. She's suffered through many tragedies with the aggrieved, and can usually find solace, some bridge to peace. But this one has left her unsettled like never before. "Of all the really awful things I've seen, and all the broken families I've worked with, I don't think any have taken me this long to work through," Miles says. "I'm still trying to figure out where I am in all of this." She sees a lot of different factors coming into play. Bryan Harvey was once quoted as saying that he did not believe in God, he believed in people. In the end, he was betrayed in the worst possible way. "It is the brutality of the attack, and it's the small fame of the family. All four of them were shining stars in their associations with other people," Miles says. "The children stood out, and the parents stood out as eclectic, funny, involved people." In a larger context, the Harveys have also helped, through grief, bridge communities that haven't crossed paths before. Still, it's not easy to talk about. "I've got to say every murder in Richmond since then I have read about carefully," Miles says. "I have thought about the names, the people in those families. I don't think I did that with such a concentrated effort before." Others have used the Harvey murders to try to reach out to communities that haven't been afflicted with violence. The Rev. Turner, of Hope in the Cities, says the tragedy should raise awareness that you can't simply move away from the problem. "The response is the same: 'I thought it would never happen in my community.' We think that where we live exempts us from the ills of drugs and crime," Turner says. "Safe communities — it's not just the block that I live in, it has to be the entire city that I live in. Until that attitude develops, things like the Harvey case will happen again." On Aug. 17, the day Gray was convicted of murdering the Harveys, Fattah Muhammad and a group of anti-crime activists stood on 31st Street in Woodland Heights and preached against black-on-black crime. It was an odd scene, because black-on-back crime wasn't at issue here. "This isn't just about mourning, it's about a new awakening," Muhammad told a small gathering, via a small P.A. He was speaking from the experiences of an inner city filled with crime and murder. That he was in Woodland Heights, which was Bryan and Kathryn's answer to suburban living, seemed out of character. But that was his point. "We have to get angry," he told those who had gathered. "We sit around here like nothing happened, man. We've got to get up. Everybody should have to taste [tragedy]. Everybody should have to smell that. … As you see, it comes over here." Alicia Rasin, a community activist who has long served as the city's unofficial grief counselor, only feels sick. She doesn't see racial issues in the case of the Harveys, only a beautiful family wronged by a diseased society. "I never forget the Joneses, in Gilpin Court, with Christopher Goins. [The Harvey murders] just reminded me so much of that. It took the same little innocent children and people," Rasin says of the 1994 slayings. Goins shot and killed five people execution style, including three children (ages 3, 4 and 9) and the unborn fetus of his ex-girlfriend. He killed everyone except Tamika Jones, who suffered eight gunshot wounds and lost her unborn baby, and Tamika's younger sister. "This should be a wake-up call for everyone," Rasin says of the Harvey murders. "It wasn't a thing about color. I didn't look at the color of their skin. It just makes me sick to my stomach to think about it. "Nothing can bring them back," she says. "That's a wound that will never heal. It might close, but it will never heal." Mark Harvey and his family certainly aren't healing — yet. But he's found something he didn't expect in losing his brother's family. As a brother, he was often at a distance, he says — he didn't run in the same circles with his brother's friends. But as he went through the house on 31st Street and began to gather and process their belongings, he found how genuinely close the family was. Kathryn and Bryan would leave each other little notes throughout the house. He found them everywhere, it seemed. "It was as close as I could get to them," Mark says. "I didn't really have a true sense of their lives until afterward, which is part of the tragedy."

[Slayerfan714]

Originally Posted by ollibear (View Post) That's a good point! Zarra seemed to have a moral code (part of the reason Bay gravitated towards her), but those characters she hung out with may or may not possess the same sense of right and wrong. I could see someone like Mouse or Eightball selling out the Kennish family and organizing something heinous. We had something like that happen in Richmond on New Year's Day in 2006. It was TRAGIC. I didn't even know the family, beyond seeing them when I shopped in their toy store or listening to their music at local venues. But when the murders happened, it ripped out my heart. I know Lizzy Weiss has tweeted that no one will ever be murdered or raped on her show, and that's reassuring. There is enough of that on TV, Switched at Birth does not need to delve into it. But Lizzy Weiss and her writers are so good at exploring social issues, and this one (described in this article) is so critical for us, as a society, to solve, that I would like to see her tackle it somehow. The Harvey Family | Cover Story | Style Weekly - Richmond, VA local news, arts, and events.

It's an interesting article and while I don't see murder or rape happening as Lizzy has declared it won't, I do think Zarra could unintentionally put the Kennishes in harm's way. But it might be nice to see Zarra deal with the fallout of that. It would show that she's layered.

I am guessing somewhere deep down Zarra has a moral center. Maybe something like that would bring it to the forefront.

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by Slayerfan714 (View Post) It's an interesting article and while I don't see murder or rape happening as Lizzy has declared it won't, I do think Zarra could unintentionally put the Kennishes in harm's way. But it might be nice to see Zarra deal with the fallout of that. It would show that she's layered. I am guessing somewhere deep down Zarra has a moral center. Maybe something like that would bring it to the forefront.

Yes!

What I like about the possible storyline is that so often, I see John being guilty of doing THIS that I have bolded from the article:

More than anything else, it serves to remind us the problems of our oft-forgotten society can come roaring back to get us. We can push them away, move away from them, build our individual fortunes and live the American dream, but somewhere desperation is boiling over. Losing the Harveys should remind us, Campbell says, that "we've got this incredible indifference, which will kill us."

Daphne touched upon it in The Awakening Conscience, when she went head-to-head with John over the taco truck, and she told him how lucky he is, how lucky they all are. Daphne said, "So much of what defines us is just dumb luck, and don't say it's what you do with the dumb luck that counts."

And then, John replied, "But it is."

That's why John ultimately ended up running for the senate. But will he make a difference? Does he remember that moment of clarity? Or will John Kennish continue to build his individual fortune and live the American dream, while somewhere (or actually, MANY places) desperation is boiling over. Will that desperation ever reach out and bite at the Kennishes?

I see both Kathryn and Daphne as wanting to reach out and make a difference for the disenfranchised members of society. Bay wanted to reach out, too, when she befriended Zarra. But like the Harvey family, is that opening the door? Is that making yourself vulnerable to an attack?

The answer to this dilemma is not black or white. I don't know the answer. How do we help without making ourselves vulnerable?

That's definitely the kind of gray area that I love to see the Switched at Birth writers explore.

[Slayerfan714]

Originally Posted by ollibear (View Post) Yes! What I like about the possible storyline is that so often, I see John being guilty of doing THIS that I have bolded from the article: Daphne touched upon it in The Awakening Conscience, when she went head-to-head with John over the taco truck, and she told him how lucky he is, how lucky they all are. Daphne said, "So much of what defines us is just dumb luck, and don't say it's what you do with the dumb luck that counts." And then, John replied, "But it is." That's why John ultimately ended up running for the senate. But will he make a difference? Does he remember that moment of clarity? Or will John Kennish continue to build his individual fortune and live the American dream, while somewhere (or actually, MANY places) desperation is boiling over. Will that desperation ever reach out and bite at the Kennishes? I see both Kathryn and Daphne as wanting to reach out and make a difference for the disenfranchised members of society. Bay wanted to reach out, too, when she befriended Zarra. But like the Harvey family, is that opening the door? Is that making yourself vulnerable to an attack? The answer to this dilemma is not black or white. I don't know the answer. How do we help without making ourselves vulnerable? That's definitely the kind of gray area that I love to see the Switched at Birth writers explore.

That's true.

It's also a matter of how people from privilege think versus how someone like Zarra would think. To someone like John it could be about helping the disenfranchised youth, but for Zarra, what ends up happening is just a means to an end.

They should do more exploration because it's intriguing.

Is it personal? Or just about survival?

Is it something that the Kennishes have coming because they got the luck of the draw while Zarra's family didn't?

You can have so much in common with someone, but the difference is you live over there and they live somewhere else, and maybe we think we have gotten to a point where that doesn't matter, but doesn't it? It still separates us and divides us.

Daphne has a more East Riverside way of thinking i.e. it was dumb luck and John didn't really do anything to "deserve" his wealth, while John's way is more Mission Hills i.e. I worked for my career and yes, I am entitled to it.

Which way is right and which one wrong? Are they both a little right and wrong?

[EyesOnFire]

Daphne has a more East Riverside way of thinking i.e. it was dumb luck and John didn't really do anything to "deserve" his wealth, while John's way is more Mission Hills i.e. I worked for my career and yes, I am entitled to it. Which way is right and which one wrong? Are they both a little right and wrong?

I think that they're both right to an extent, but personally, I feel that Daphne is 'more right' (particularly when it comes to people like John).
People that make it big in sports, acting, art, music, and writing are very lucky. There are tons of individual that are talented and work hard in the previously mentioned areas that don't have that luck and never make it big for various reasons.
Not that I am discounting the fact that John did work hard, because he did. But he was also very lucky.

Now as for the amount of his wealth... well that's a whole different ballgame (pun intended ).

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by Slayerfan714 (View Post) That's true. It's also a matter of how people from privilege think versus how someone like Zarra would think. To someone like John it could be about helping the disenfranchised youth, but for Zarra, what ends up happening is just a means to an end. They should do more exploration because it's intriguing. Is it personal? Or just about survival? Is it something that the Kennishes have coming because they got the luck of the draw while Zarra's family didn't? You can have so much in common with someone, but the difference is you live over there and they live somewhere else, and maybe we think we have gotten to a point where that doesn't matter, but doesn't it? It still separates us and divides us. Daphne has a more East Riverside way of thinking i.e. it was dumb luck and John didn't really do anything to "deserve" his wealth, while John's way is more Mission Hills i.e. I worked for my career and yes, I am entitled to it. Which way is right and which one wrong? Are they both a little right and wrong?

It's definitely an issue in my own life. From the age of 2 to 10, my parents worked (and we all lived) on a state-run farm for juvenile delinquents. The same teenage boys that society had written off were teaching me how to play the piano and hold a pool cue. My parents cared about those boys, and so did I.

I want to make a difference, like my parents did, but it's so easy to move away, and there is fear in reaching out to the unknown.

[Slayerfan714]

Grr.

I wrote up a response and went down for a minute.

I'll try again.

It's difficult, because you want to help people, but you never know who is going to use that help to take advantage of you. There are the people who will be grateful and then the ones who try to screw you over and it's hard to ascertain which category a person falls into just by looking at them.

For now it would seem like Zarra is a 'screw you over' type person, given that she seemed to be out only for her.

It would be nice to see that developed a bit more.

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by Slayerfan714 (View Post) Grr. I wrote up a response and went down for a minute. I'll try again. It's difficult, because you want to help people, but you never know who is going to use that help to take advantage of you. There are the people who will be grateful and then the ones who try to screw you over and it's hard to ascertain which category a person falls into just by looking at them. For now it would seem like Zarra is a 'screw you over' type person, given that she seemed to be out only for her. It would be nice to see that developed a bit more.

I'm game. Zarra is one of the mini-season characters I would most want to see brought back to the show.

Of course, Wilke is the number one character I want to return.

Zarra might just be next, because I feel there is more to explore there. It's either Zarra or Simone. I am not sure which one I would rather see developed more.

I don't need much more than a glimpse or two (if even that) into Ty, Chef Jeff, Scuba, Noah, Chip Coto, or Jace again.

I would love to see more of Alex, but I doubt we will ever see him again.

If I had been Bay, though, I would have clung to Alex after what Emmett shared at prom. Even with their rather lackluster date at the barbecue joint, I would have much rather continued seeing Alex than gone off with Zarra. And I certainly would have enjoyed Alex's company more than Noah. But that's just me.

I can understand Bay's attraction to Ty, though. I do not believe he is right for her long-term, but I can understand her being attracted to him at this time in her life.

[Slayerfan714]

Originally Posted by ollibear (View Post) I'm game. Zarra is one of the mini-season characters I would most want to see brought back to the show. Of course, Wilke is the number one character I want to return. Zarra might just be next, because I feel there is more to explore there. It's either Zarra or Simone. I am not sure which one I would rather see developed more. I don't need much more than a glimpse or two (if even that) into Ty, Chef Jeff, Scuba, Noah, Chip Coto, or Jace again. I would love to see more of Alex, but I doubt we will ever see him again. If I had been Bay, though, I would have clung to Alex after what Emmett shared at prom. Even with their rather lackluster date at the barbecue joint, I would have much rather continued seeing Alex than gone off with Zarra. And I certainly would have enjoyed Alex's company more than Noah. But that's just me. I can understand Bay's attraction to Ty, though. I do not believe he is right for her long-term, but I can understand her being attracted to him at this time in her life.

I'd have to reserve judgment to see how I felt about a Zarra return. It would depend on whether or not Bay is the same as she was around her the first time or different.

The first time, Zarra was kind of like a romance of Bay. Even LW said Bay was "seduced" by Zarra.

I probably would have stuck with Alex too, but I can see Zarra's appeal to Bay as a street artist and someone who didn't have the restraints Bay did. And by restraints, I mean Bay was a minor living with her parents while Zarra was an adult who could come and go as she pleased.

And maybe Bay wanted a break from guys and Zarra was the next closest thing to a relationship.

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by Slayerfan714 (View Post) I'd have to reserve judgment to see how I felt about a Zarra return. It would depend on whether or not Bay is the same as she was around her the first time or different. The first time, Zarra was kind of like a romance of Bay. Even LW said Bay was "seduced" by Zarra. I probably would have stuck with Alex too, but I can see Zarra's appeal to Bay as a street artist and someone who didn't have the restraints Bay did. And by restraints, I mean Bay was a minor living with her parents while Zarra was an adult who could come and go as she pleased. And maybe Bay wanted a break from guys and Zarra was the next closest thing to a relationship.

So if it was up to you which one character made a return (along with Wilke, of course, because everyone loves Wilke), who would you choose?

[Slayerfan714]

Originally Posted by ollibear (View Post) So if it was up to you which one character made a return (along with Wilke, of course, because everyone loves Wilke), who would you choose?

Oh, I don't know.

I guess Zarra. Even though there is a lot they can explore more with Simone I guess, my desire to see her dwindles. I just can't get excited about the prospect about seeing her unless it helps Bay & Emmett somehow. Otherwise she reminds me of a bitter taste left behind in my mouth.

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by Slayerfan714 (View Post) Oh, I don't know. I guess Zarra. Even though there is a lot they can explore more with Simone I guess, my desire to see her dwindles. I just can't get excited about the prospect about seeing her unless it helps Bay & Emmett somehow. Otherwise she reminds me of a bitter taste left behind in my mouth.

I would like to see Simone as a camp counselor. I love that she told Toby she is really good at it. I could see that. She is probably the one I most want to see return. Perhaps it is just because she was there from the beginning, but Simone feels like a part of the story in a way that Zarra does not.

But I think Zarra may h ave more storyline potential, if they are looking to bring someone back from the past.

Truthfully, I would enjoy seeing more of either one. If Zarra returns, I definitely want her to help Bay make a breakthrough with her art. That would be awesome!