starryeyesxx

Thanks for explaining the comic situation to me! Without Joss involved, I can't take them as canon at all (although there are some things he has done that I don't think of as canon anyway ), so I almost don't care what characters they bring back next. It doesn't really count to me

& thanks for the lines as well! I couldn't have seen Cordy just leaving either, there would have been so many questions. Like how would she have restarted her life? Where could she have possibly gone? That hell line breaks my heart though

Ashes Fall

Thanks for this explanation, there is quite a bit I did not have knowledge of regarding the comics.
I'd read that ATF was essentially translated from the scripts intended for an on-screen season 6 with only a single significant difference, Wesley's death (which was only done after finding out the show was being cancelled), hence why I assumed it's considered season 6. But you're saying 'Aftermath' though non-canon is considered season 6? I'm confused by that.

I hadn't any knowledge of this 'Aftermath' until recent when I came across a panel out of it on Tumblr of the appearance by Cordy. Apparently she physically descended to earth to help Angel.



No that I think about it, I'd read about her canon appearance in ATF at her Buffy and Angel wikia but while this is listed in her comic appearances both canon and non, and both visual and reference, it's not discussed in detail.

I did hear that a season 11 of Buffy was happening but had forgotten about it. There's a good reason for that. What I've heard of the preceding seasons though very little is below unimpressive, irksome even.
Indeed, I know of the Bangel reunion, I accidentally came across a revealing peace of information while searching the 'Angel & Faith' pages on the Buffy and Angel Wikia for any details of Cordy's additional references besides #2 when Angel reveals that he'd tried to resurrect her (No luck there). There was a contunity mention of a pregnancy scare that Buffy had because Spike apparently uses it take a below the belt shot at Angel clearly stating that they'd slept together. Though I'm comforted by the presumption that Angelus didn't result from it, as that says a lot. That wasn't Angel's first time since Cordy's coma but apparently the fantasy with her remains to be the last time Angelus resulted.

For this reason I concur with Sophie and don't consider the Buffy seasons canon.
I acually bought the first 3 volumes before finishing the TV show, so quite ignorantly so, but I barely got into the second volume and haven't continued in almost a year now. At this point I don't intend to.

Aa for 'Angel and Faith', one thing holding me back from it is that I've seen discussion tiles which suggest that fans want them to become a couple and at the risk of sounding like a Cangel version of a Bangel fan, I don't know if I like that idea. I'm gonna say the same thing here that is commonly said of Cangel, I feel them more as sibling like than compatitible romantically.

That's adorable and so classic Cordy!

Gosh that's such a heartbreaker. To actually hear so bluntly how his baby girl suffered would have hit Angel a hundred times harder than a stake to the heart. He probably would have broken down and cried right there.

I believe the reason this statement was removed was that in the ending that was shot, the intention was for the viewer not to realize Cordy had died until the phone call and it was too revealing.


Hmm, intriguing. Ironic because when I watched it for the first time, my initial assumption was that she was taking off on him alive up until the phone call and that pissed me off to the point of almost feeling relieved by the revelation that she'd died.

I'm almost deadlocked on which would be worse between her vanishing right in front of his eyes and walking out on him alive but still leaning towards walking out on him alive, essentially abandoning him and that makes absolutely no sense.
Her life with Angel fulfilled her more than anything ever had. She loved him, she chose him over acting and fame, over humanity, she tried to choose him over the higher plane, she'd NEVER walk out on him.

This, the hell line included, is far more insensitive than what was shot, which was out of character for Cordy. Withholding her suffering, caressing Angel after she pulls away from the kiss and then waiting to depart until his back was turned was considerate of his fragile emotions which fit better with how she'd always cared about him first. If she'd just walked out after pulling away from that kiss, the whole atmosphere would have been different. It wouldn't have been as moving or meaningful, in fact it would have come across as kind of cold.

It feels to me like Cordy had still died despite it being unspecified which would have left the episode purposeless.

I agree that this was probably the ending Charisma was tricked into signing with and it's no wonder she sobbed when she found out.

starryeyesxx

Some love - & I feel like it kinda fits with Cordy still being on Angel's side even though she's not alive anymore



i am being perfectly ****ing civil.

FuriosityShell

starryeyesxx, Joss is still involved in the comics but his level of involvement has decreased and isn't on the level of his involvement in S8 ad the TV shows. The last he actually wrote an issue was the BtVS S9 issue 1, which was the best issue of that season. He's been too busy with The Avengers and Marvel, and his lack of involvement shows in the pedestrian writing.

Ashes Fall, I meant the non-canon are more like a S6. It's not actually considered S6, but the way it's structured is more like a season than ATF is. The comic arcs are more episodic. Whereas ATF worked more like a movie lasting only 17 issues with each issue ending with a cliffhanger a la S4.

In S8, Angel has superpowers and is under the influence of this force called Twilight and kills Slayers and commits evil acts against Buffy and the Scoobies believing it'll save the world. Buffy later gains superpowers and, also falling under the influence, she and Angel have sex in space and create a new universe (something tells me the Angelus rules didn't apply given how cosmic it all was). Then Angel ends up possessed and kills Giles.

Angel & Faith deals with the aftermath of his actions from HIS point of view. His relationship with Buffy is incredibly strained, Buffy not even being able to look at him. Faith takes him under her wing and helps him find redemption like he did for her. Don't let the Angel/Faith shippers fool you. There is no romance going on between the two in A&F. S9 of Angel & Faith is about Angel trying to resurrect Giles and atone for his actions. I thought A&F was actually BETTER than Buffy S9, which was outright horrible at times. A&F wasn't bad so much as just unremarkable. The writing lacked the depth of the TV shows ad many people feel like Angel was let off the hook too easily for his actios. But it wasn't bad, just so unremarkable.

Cordy is mentioned in three different issues. First time is in Issue 2, which is the only meaningful time she's mentioned.

FAITH: Angel, when Cordelia died, you had everyone at Jacoby, Meyers and Satan working for you. In a world that still had magic. If it coulda been done, you'da done it then.
ANGEL: It's not that cut and dried. There have always been resurrection spells. Wolfram and Hart had dozens. They just aren't used much, because they're hard...dangerous...and they only on the body. The soul's a whole different thing. You end up with a zombie...or worse.

In Issue 5, Harmony appears and Angel introduces her to Faith as "Cordelia's friend".

In Issue 19, Angel, due to the effects of a spell, is going insane. When Faith asks him if he's okay, Angel says, "I'm fine, Wesley. Tell Cordelia no more calls. I just need to lie down, clear my head..."

I haven't read S10 of either Buffy or A&F and I don't really want to because S9 let me down.

Boy, we're so off-topic!

Every time I watch "You're Welcome", I'm just so amazed at that final scene. Though it was written well, I really think it's all Charisma ad David and that the scene wouldn't had nearly as much impact if their performances hadn't been so fantastic. I like how David Fury (the director) didn't add any music when Angel got the phone call, and trusted David enough to sell Angel's grief by himself, which he did. In the commentary, David Fury and Christian Kane were talking about how Charisma wasn't even acting she was so emotional, but David was also really torn up too, and they had to stop shooting. I knew the two cried together, but I didn't know they had to stop shooting because of it. I prefer Buffy over Angel, but I do admit Angel's heartbreaking scenes get to me more than Buffy's heartbreaking scenes. My top 3 favorite scenes in the franchise period are Faith breaking down in "Five by Five", Wesley's death scene and Cordy's goodbye.

Angel not mentioning Cordy after her death made sense to me because he was so emotionally stunted that he probably didn't want to talk about it and it made perfect sense to me. He was really closed off. It's just everyone else (Wesley in particular) not talking about it or being affected by it that irritates me.

I remember in the commentary for "Not Fade Away", Jeffrey Bell (writer/director) was talking about Angel spending his last day with Connor. He said (I'm paraphrasing), "He would've also spent his last day with Cordelia but she's not there. She's in heaven with God now." I'm agnostic and God might not even exist in the Buffyverse, but I like how a writer said that. It makes the 'verse seem less depressing.

In my personal canon, Angel and co. died in the alley in NFA, but I'd like to think that if he did live, he would have gotten over her death and went on fighting anyway, just like he did Buffy, knowing that she was up there on his side watching over him. "That's not betraying her, that's honoring her."

Ashes Fall

I wouldn't say we're off topic as we're still discussing Angel and Cordy but rather that we're incorporating off topic subjects into the conversation at the same time. Which I agree needs to stop.

W....T....F?! This sounds like a horrendous fanfiction, how the hell did Joss approve this garbage for canon?
None of this concept makes a lick of sense to me and I don't care to figure it out. It's off topic anyway.

Agreed, that was an emmy worth scene for them both, David Boreanaz was selling Angel's pain the entire time, he ripped my heart out and crushed it in his big, strong hand with those eyes the entire time she was telling him why she had to leave.
There may not have been much acting here but David IS quite incredible at emotional performances, this can be seen in his current show 'Bones'.

I as well knew that they cried together during the shooting of the scene but not that the emotion had gotten so out of hand that they needed to stop the cameras for it. Wow. I guess I can see why David didn't participate in the commentary but I'd have preferred to hear from him than Christian Kane.

Joss Whedon being an Athiest undoubtedly does not consider the Buffy/Angelverses to have a God despite allowing a few subtle Christian references (I.E the cross and holy water being weapons against vampires). I believe, however that the PTB are supposed to be a supplement for that role so because Cordy is established to be alongside the PTB in her afterlife, that comment is using a non-canon perspective but one that is equivalent so I consider it accurate.

That's a nice headcanon, I have one of my own that whenever and however Angel does die, his redeemed soul is able to be reunited with his Cordy in the higher plane. She's even there when he dies to take him there herself. Wesley as well. I also have this ridiculous fantasy that the PTB revived Fred's soul so the four of them are a family again in the afterlife.

As for your second scenario, I wouldn't say he'd get over her death so much as her memory and the notion that she still believes in him from up there would resume being his drive as she was in life. He'd take comfort and pride in knowing that his love is among the powers that be. I've imagined him telling someone he'd helped from a vision that he knew about the situation because "I've got a connection to the powers that be, my girl is up there with them."

But we know how it really happened, he DOES canonically keep fighting in ATF.

starryeyesxx

As much as it seem obvious that they all die, I just don't want to believe that I always fought that Angel was still gonna have to fight for a couple more centuries before the shanshu prophecy could come true - the ptb pulled him out of hell once, & they brought Spike back to life too, they don't let death stop a champion when they've still got work to do.

I can completely buy into Cordelia being a higher power, it makes sense to me & I think it would also count as peace for her too. She'd still be helping Angel imo, even if he didn't know it

Ashes Fall

In my head canon, Angel doesn't want the Shanshu anymore since Cordy died because a human life meant nothing to him without his love to share it with. (his suddenly completing with Spike for it doesn't count, that was just childish rivalry). He blames himself for what happened to Cordy so perhaps he even felt he'd never truly deserve it.

I never considered that it was the PTB who brought Angel back from hell but it makes total sense and I love it. I don't agree in Spike's case but that's off topic so I'm not going to propose my argument.

This is actually in the canon, it's established in ATF.

There is a subtle hint that she watches over him and he even gets to actually see her again when his soul astral projects in a dying state much like what happened to her in 'Birthday'. She convinces him that he needs to hold on to his life because he wasn't done fighting.
Her Buffy and Angel wikia page describes it in detail.

starryeyesxx

I think his feelings towards the shanshu prophecy will always be complicated, & his purpose for fighting against evil has definitely changed & that it's not all about the reward, but I think he'd still take it if it were there.

& I know they've said she's a higher power in the comics, but I don't buy into everything that happens there - i.e. Angel being twilight - but that's something I'm definitely on board with

Ashes Fall

Do you remember when he destroyed the ring of amora, when he erased having become human once? It was never about the reward, it was about being worthy of the reward. It was about redeeming himself from Angelus' sins.
So no, it's canon fact that he doesn't just take a reward that happens to be available to him.

I'll agree though that I believe his purpose for fighting is now largely driven by a need to honor Cordelia, to make sure that she didn't die in vein.

As for the comics, I exclusively believe the ATF canon, at least what I've heard of it. The Buffy seasons, the Twilight and the horrendous cosmic Bangel sex garbage that's more like a horrible fanfiction written by someone high on LSDs, I don't buy into that either.

FuriosityShell

S8 is really over the top. I don't really like the Angel Twilight stuff and the Bangel sex (it's called the "spacefrak" and replaced the attempted rape in "Seeing Red" for worst sex scene) that occurs later in the season, but Joss is heavily involved in the season and wrote many issues and it has some complex writing and storylines, so I like it. The "spacefrak" and Bangel material is absolutely ridiculous but there's much more to the season than that. One S8 arc in particular involving Faith is just as good as anything from the TV show in my opinion. It's definitely something that you need to read for yourself before you judge it. I don't really consider After the Fall canon either. It has some great moments like Cordelia's return and there's some great Illyria material, but it doesn't have a whole lot of depth, the ending is too happy and it's a bit too safe for me. S8, whether people loved it or hated it, they admitted it was complex. There were many, many metas and essays written on it because of how complex it was and the issues sold extremely well. But there's none of that with ATF, S9 and S10. Sales have gone down and I haven't seen much meta or anything on it since the early issues of S9 because they're not as deep or well-written. But even though I enjoyed S8, I don't consider it canon either because S9 and S10 just ruined the comics for me. I acknowledge that they're still canon. Whether I like it or not, everything is still official series canon (S8, ATF, S9, S10), but I personally don't acknowledge any of it similar to how some fans think BtVS ended with S5 for them. The verse ended with "Not Fade Away" to me.

However, I do accept it as canon that Cordy is a higher being. It was implied in "You're Welcome" with her line "I'm just on a different road". I like your point about his fighting to honor her. Throughout the series, I always felt like Angel made peace with the fact that he could never be redeemed and he fought more to hold up to the standard that Cordelia had for him than because he could be redeemed.

starryeyesxx

I know it was never just about the reward for Angel, not only did he give up the gem of amara, but he also asked the ptb to turn back time after he became human in IWRY. But the shanshu prophecy gave him something to hold on to, it gave him a kind of hope that he didn't have before & direction. It's pretty much spelled out in the s1 finale that Angel was feeling disconnected & cut off before he found out about it.

I don't really count any of the comics as canon, but every now & then there are things that I like that I think "yeah, I like that, I'll add that to my own headcanon".

Ashes Fall

FS: I don't know that I'd say that Angel believed he could be redeemed as opposed to he wanted to believe it, was convinced to believe it by Cordelia.
And how is it fact that he can't be?


Sophie: His eyes are clearly interested when Wesley reveals the Shanshu, but cautiously so, he doesn't actually get a faint trace of a smile and say "That sounds nice" until Cordelia showed enthusiasm.

I just watched that bit on my itunes to double check. I love 'To Shanshu in LA'. I have it and a few of my other favorites downloaded.



Cordelia was always the core of his confidence, his hopes.

FuriosityShell

I really meant post-"Epiphany" Angel believed he could never really be redeemed and made peace with it. Whether or not he could be redeemed is up to the viewer, but Angel felt like he couldn't be. Darla says to him in "Lullaby" that they could never make up for what they did, and Angel agrees. Angel and Spike both acknowledge this as well in "Damage". I always felt that post-"Epiphany" Angel wasn't really worried about the Shanshu. If it happened, it would be nice but I felt like he started fighting because it was the right thing to do and I felt like he wanted to hold up to the standard Cordelia set for him. S3 isn't one of my favorite seasons, but I do feel like Angel really grew up that season. To me, Buffy represented Angel's past and Cordelia represented his future. And in S3, he put his past behind him and stopped being the brooding-in-the-dark guy worrying about all of his evil deeds in "the powered wig days" and started looking toward his future, helping people, being a father and his developing feelings for Cordy. He grew up that season, as evidenced by his forgiving Holtz in "Benediction" and even in his attitude of letting Cordy go off with Groo at the end of "Couplet".

I have no idea with Angel's arc in S4 is, however. But he totally regresses starting in that season.

"To Shanshu in L.A." isn't one of my favorite episodes, but I do really like it. I always loved the part where Cordy says "Nobody gets my humor" and Angel just monotonously says "I thought it was funny". I thought it really showed how depressed Angel was that he didn't even laugh at something he found funny. And of course Cordy was determined to get him out of that funk.

Ashes Fall

I agree with this and believe that if anything it's exactly this that WOULD redeem him.

As far as I'm concerned these are the reasons season 3 is the best. I'm on the fence with the whole Holtz storyline but Angel's character evolution and the growing relationship between him and Cordy are amazing. I can't stand that Holtz and season 4 ripped it all to shreds.

I meant to ask, FS, the Faith arc in season 8 of Buffy which was "as good as anything on the show", is it the one in which Giles approaches her with the task to execute a slayer who is slaying innocent people? That's where I left off, just after he explains the situation and that he'd chosen Faith for this task because she could hold her own taking a human life as opposed to Buffy (and what they don't know at this point but the reader does, is that this slayer is essentially a victim like Connor was of Jasmine, as she's being manipulated by her watcher who is actually a Twilight poser, into thinking she's slaying vampires).
That actually seemed interesting. I mostly stopped reading because of what I've heard of the future of the series.

FuriosityShell

Yes, that is the arc I'm referring to. It's called "No Future for You". The Slayer being manipulated isn't quite like the Connor/Jasmine situation. The Slayer knows she's killing innocent Slayers. She's very entitled due to the fact that she's a"blue blood" and she comes from money, so she believes that makes her fit to be "Queen of the Slayers" and she plans to execute Buffy, the "queen". Although there is some manipulation from her watcher and she's presented as somewhat sympathetic. Faith is sent to execute her by pretending to be her friend, and Faith has a hard time killing her because the Slayer reminds her of how she used to be. It's a 4-issue arc and the four issues amount to the same amount of content as one episode of the show. The story is well-written with great dialogue, character interaction and development and the ending is very sad and touching. I found myself tearing up when I read it. I would have loved to have seen it acted out by Eliza Dushku, Anthony Head and Sarah Michelle Gellar. When I say it's as good as any episode of the TV show, I'm probably biased because Faith is one of my favorite characters and I'm a huge fan of hers. If you are indifferent towards Faith or if you dislike her, you probably won't get that much out of the story. If you are a fan of the Faith/the Mayor, there's a flashback in the comic showing them and Faith reveals what she thinks of the Mayor now and their time together. There's also some great, although sad, Buffy/Faith interaction if you enjoy their dynamic like I do (people can debate Bangel vs. Spuffy all they want, but Fuffy wins out for me ). Faith is definitely the Cordelia of the comics in that she stars alongside Angel and is developing quite positively. Even Angel & Faith, which I'm meh about, has some decent Faith material. She's the one thing the comics are still getting right. Faith's line to Buffy in S7's "Dirty Girls" when she sees her with Spike is "Are you the bad Slayer now? Am I the good Slayer now?" is quite accurate in describing the two now. Faith is the more responsible Slayer now and Buffy isn't.

When I made that paragraph about S8 a few posts back talking about how complex it was, I wanted to defend it because I felt like I made it sound worse than it actually is (although the Bangel spacesex stuff is WAY worse than I made it sound). The comics are over the top. That comes with the territory, but the characters are still as well-written as they are in the TV series. S8's real problem is its last few arcs, where Angel arrives and the over-the-top antics overshadow the characters themselves and that's where things get crazy. I still wouldn't recommend the comics to you because you seem like Angel is your favorite character or one of your favorites and they destroy his character. However, "No Future for You" is totally sucky Angel material-free and if you like Faith, then by all means, finish it.

On the subject of Angel's character in S4, what do you think of the S4 opener "Deep Down"? I thought it was great and a wonderful exploration of Angel's psyche, way better than "Soul Purpose". Plus, it has one of my favorite Angel speeches, "We live as though as the world were as it should be to show it what it can be."