[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) That's a good idea. It's hard for me to answer because I felt that in many ways, Ephram had a hard time in expressing sentiment, except with Amy, and often the only thing he would express to his father was anger and resentment. I personally think he forgave Andy once he started acting as a mentor to Kyle, because in his talk with Kyle, when Kyle didn't want to admit he was gay, he talked about how he had kept things bottled up and how it didn't do any good, so I think that at that point, he had forgiven Andy. Ephram really grew through his mentoring of Kyle, and I think he learned how holding on to anger and resentment could ruin your life, so I think that he learned to let go of his anger and resentment toward Andy.

I love this answer, I completely agree. My initial thought was shortly after he returned from Europe, during the scene when he told Andy he wasn't over Amy and wanted to get back together with her. I think he was on his way but you've now convinced me it was around the time he mentored Kyle. Europe allowed Ephram to grow up, mature, start the healing and forgiving process, but it was his relationship with Kyle that definitely helped him let go of the anger and resentment for good.

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) I love this answer, I completely agree. My initial thought was shortly after he returned from Europe, during the scene when he told Andy he wasn't over Amy and wanted to get back together with her. I think he was on his way but you've now convinced me it was around the time he mentored Kyle. Europe allowed Ephram to grow up, mature, start the healing and forgiving process, but it was his relationship with Kyle that definitely helped him let go of the anger and resentment for good.

Wonderful response.

I loved that scene with Ephram and Andy:

[everwoodfan52]

I also believe that while mentoring kyle Ephram realized how difficult if must have been for Andy to raise him when Ephram was having the same difficulties with Kyle. Ephram realized what a handful he was and appreciated a father wanting to shelter his child from any hardships. THis is what Ephram wanted to do for Kyle.This was the icing on the cake for forgiving Andy.

I do believe, though, that Ephram forgave his dad while in Europe. He was ready to reconcile when he returned, otherwise he would not been so open and honest with Andy at the campfire that Jerry shared with us ^^^. I love that scene.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) Wonderful response. I loved that scene with Ephram and Andy:

Thanks!

Oh thanks also for supplying this scene. I have tears in my eyes. I love it so much. I love when Ephram tells Andy he returned to Everwood because he's still in love with Amy. The entire scene is just so beautiful. Like I said above, it was my first answer and I think on some level, Ephram had already pretty much forgiven Andy at this point, but the Kyle interaction and what Ephram got out of it, absolutely, 100%, without a doubt had Ephram convinced he fully forgave his father.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by everwoodfan52 (View Post) I also believe that while mentoring kyle Ephram realized how difficult if must have been for Andy to raise him when Ephram was having the same difficulties with Kyle. Ephram realized what a handful he was and appreciated a father wanting to shelter his child from any hardships. THis is what Ephram wanted to do for Kyle.This was the icing on the cake for forgiving Andy. I do believe, though, that Ephram forgave his dad while in Europe. He was ready to reconcile when he returned, otherwise he would not been so open and honest with Andy at the campfire that Jerry shared with us ^^^. I love that scene.

Totally agree.

All three of us are on the same page. What a trio. Haha.

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) Totally agree. All three of us are on the same page. What a trio. Haha.

Yes we are!

[everwoodfan52]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) Yes we are!

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by everwoodfan52 (View Post)

I love it!

[jediwands]

^^^^^^^^^ Perfect.

[Jerry D]

Last night, I watched an episode clip where Ephram accused Andy of cheating on Julia, and Andy was finally forced to reveal to Ephram that Julia had in fact cheated on him. Ephram refused to believe it at first and he called Andy a liar, but then he was devastated because he always had put Julia on a pedestal and they had been so close. Just look at the incredible acting on the part of Treat Williams and Gregory Smith in this scene:



Did Ephram ever come to terms with this? I can't remember.

There really has never been a show like Everwood and there never will be again.

[jediwands]

^ There never will be.

It is getting late and I'm starting to get tired. I couldn't resist, so I pressed play, watched the phenomenal scene Treat/Greg created as Andy/Ephram and suddenly feel awake and ready to watch more Everwood, lol. So intriguing. These characters are so real, I feel like I am sitting in that same room as Andy and Ephram experiencing what they are enduring.

Yes, Ephram got through it. I mean, he came to an understanding. He blamed his father for everything and what I find amazing about Andy is how he didn't want Ephram for one second, to blame Julia for the affair. He wanted to take all the blame, every ounce of it, because of not being there for the family due to work and his busy lifestyle. I love how Ephram stopped thinking his mother walked on water and his father wasn't the devil either. He finally saw the reality of the situation. I loved this storyline. Not that I was glad to find out Julia had the affair. I did like how things were not so simple. It wasn't just Andy working and absent. Julia did play a part in their marriage failing as well and she wasn't this perfect human Ephram thought she was. The best of mother's are not perfect, and Ephram really needed to understand that in order to forgive his father for his part.

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) ^ There never will be. It is getting late and I'm starting to get tired. I couldn't resist, so I pressed play, watched the phenomenal scene Treat/Greg created as Andy/Ephram and suddenly feel awake and ready to watch more Everwood, lol. So intriguing. These characters are so real, I feel like I am sitting in that same room as Andy and Ephram experiencing what they are enduring. Yes, Ephram got through it. I mean, he came to an understanding. He blamed his father for everything and what I find amazing about Andy is how he didn't want Ephram for one second, to blame Julia for the affair. He wanted to take all the blame, every ounce of it, because of not being there for the family due to work and his busy lifestyle. I love how Ephram stopped thinking his mother walked on water and his father wasn't the devil either. He finally saw the reality of the situation. I loved this storyline. Not that I was glad to find out Julia had the affair. I did like how things were not so simple. It wasn't just Andy working and absent. Julia did play a part in their marriage failing as well and she wasn't this perfect human Ephram thought she was. The best of mother's are not perfect, and Ephram really needed to understand that in order to forgive his father for his part.

Wonderful analysis. The main thing I hated about Madisongate is that it at least temporarily destroyed all the progress that Ephram and Andy had made in their relationship after having such a horribly estranged relationship after Julia died. One thing that this show did so well was to show that every character had flaws and none of them were perfect.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) Wonderful analysis.

Thanks, friend.

The main thing I hated about Madisongate is that it at least temporarily destroyed all the progress that Ephram and Andy had made in their relationship after having such a horribly estranged relationship after Julia died.

It was so frustrating. In addition to what Madisongate did to father and son, it also temporarily broke up Ephram/Amy, made Bright and Amy handle their mother’s cancer without Ephram, and poor Delia (who lost her mother) had a brother abandon her while she suffered for months not having any idea when or if her brother would return.

Madisongate was the single worst storyline of the series. It created unnecessary cheap drama, when we know the true essence of Everwood never had to go there.

One thing that this show did so well was to show that every character had flaws and none of them were perfect.

100%. It was so realistic. The realism was such an attractive quality because viewers could relate... flawed, real life situations but always with a dose of hope.

[break the window]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) Last night, I watched an episode clip where Ephram accused Andy of cheating on Julia, and Andy was finally forced to reveal to Ephram that Julia had in fact cheated on him. Ephram refused to believe it at first and he called Andy a liar, but then he was devastated because he always had put Julia on a pedestal and they had been so close. Just look at the incredible acting on the part of Treat Williams and Gregory Smith in this scene:

I am so so in awe of their acting together. Greg and Treat just shine together! They are amazing in this scene. This is one of my favorites too.



Andy let Ephram put Julia on a pedestal for as long as he could for a lot of different reasons that we can understand. Honestly, Andy took a lot of **** from Ephram for as long as he could. Andy realized he was not the parent Ephram and Delia should've been left with. Julia knew her children inside and out. Julia knew what Ephram was going to do before Ephram even thought about wanting to do it.



Finally it came a time when Andy had to knock Julia off of her pedestal that she was put on by Ephram and knock Ephram off his high horse that he so willingly put himself on.



I think Andy tried to make Julia as heavenly and angelic as possible to her children. She was amazing, she was the woman that Andy really wanted to spend the rest of his life with. He was the woman he fought to marry. He fought Joseph to give his blessing for his daughter to marry him. Andy wanted to keep Julia that way for as long as possible. If Andy has his way, Julia's affair would have never been told. He wanted to keep that part of their marriage to himself. But the truth always has to come out.

[everwoodfan52]

You guys ^^^^^^ analyze oh so well! I just enjoy reading it all and agree with everything!

Bottom lines are:

Madison did ruin Andy and Ephram's momentum and set their relationship back worse than the beginning, and the momentum of Ephram and Amy's relationship as well.. Horrible is so many respects.

Julia was a great mom, but so was Andy a good dad in his own way. Ephram needed to know the truth about Julia and finally cut Andy some slack. Poor Andy couldn't catch a break with what he was doing as a parent, but shouldn't have been blamed for stuff he wasn't doing! This was a scene that needed to happen.