[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) Excellent responses Michelle and Patricia. I honestly don’t know what Madison was expecting from Andy, but all he wanted to do was protect his son and pay her to go away, which she did. Since she chose to have the baby and give that baby up for adoption, there was no reason for her to tell Ephram when she saw him in New York, and it seems like she just wanted to hurt him and Andy. She never should have gotten involved with Ephram in the first place and have sex with him, and she didn’t have to tell him that she had his baby just before his Julliard audition. Everything about Madison was bad and wrong, and I wish that they had never introduced her character.

So true, Jerry. Everything about Madison was absolutely bad and wrong. She was this big ball of dark energy that caused destruction to anything in its path.

I rolled my eyes with disgust when Ephram talked to her on the phone and apologized. I couldn’t stand that moment.

How did everyone feel about that?

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) So true, Jerry. Everything about Madison was absolutely bad and wrong. She was this big ball of dark energy that caused destruction to anything in its path. I rolled my eyes with disgust when Ephram talked to her on the phone and apologized. I couldn’t stand that moment. How did everyone feel about that?

I hated that Ephram apologized to that witch. He had nothing to apologize for. She was the one in the wrong, and not him.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) I hated that Ephram apologized to that witch. He had nothing to apologize for. She was the one in the wrong, and not him.

Right? It was such a frustrating moment.

[jediwands]

I just checked out my live discussion thoughts when the episode aired...

http://www.fanforum.com/9437174-post21.html

I was fuming over the phone call but being a good mod not wanting to rant because I wanted others to talk about it. My Amy love is all over that review, lol.

But yes, the key was showing Ephram's maturity and like I mentioned in the review, it was the theme for Ephram, not only overall in season 4, but in this episode, very strongly as well. I just think the writers took it a little too far by having Ephram apologize to Madison basically. So unnecessary. She should have been the one apologizing to him. From a legal angle, it looks really pathetic having the victim (Ephram) go there as well. Hated this phone call.

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) I just checked out my live discussion thoughts when the episode aired... http://www.fanforum.com/9437174-post21.html I was fuming over the phone call but being a good mod not wanting to rant because I wanted others to talk about it. My Amy love is all over that review, lol. But yes, the key was showing Ephram's maturity and like I mentioned in the review, it was the theme for Ephram, not only overall in season 4, but in this episode, very strongly as well. I just think the writers took it a little too far by having Ephram apologize to Madison basically. So unnecessary. She should have been the one apologizing to him. From a legal angle, it looks really pathetic having the victim (Ephram) go there as well. Hated this phone call.

Great review, and yes you were biting your tongue about that phone call in it! I also never knew that you liked Amy until I read this review! I do agree that the point of that episode was about how Ephram had matured and how he was finding his calling to be a piano teacher. He was a great mentor and friend to Kyle in that episode and other episodes that season.

I'm going to respond to some other points that you and Patricia made tonight.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) Great review, and yes you were biting your tongue about that phone call in it! I also never knew that you liked Amy until I read this review! I do agree that the point of that episode was about how Ephram had matured and how he was finding his calling to be a piano teacher. He was a great mentor and friend to Kyle in that episode and other episodes that season.

I was biting my tongue. LOL. At that time a few, or I should say, one, maybe two, Madison fans existed on the episode discussion threads and of course I didn’t want to make them feel uncomfortable so I was way more PG with thoughts if I suspected they were around. I never lied, I always stated my thoughts, I just didn’t set off fireworks, or I tried not to. Others did the same. Very mature, our fandom.

I also noticed not every episode discussion thread from back in the day is in the OP. I’m going to have to personally go back and look over every page of this board. It’s possible that big crash allowed us to lose some but I don’t remember us specifically losing those episode discussion threads... hmm. Maybe though? Oh well, that is my project for the near future.

But yes, my Amy love is so subtle, isn’t it?

The Ephram maturity theme was big in this episode. It was truly the point of the phone call. I still just couldn’t stand it. What would’ve been better (if any contact was necessary, which I don’t think so) was the witch calling him to apologize and then Ephram accepting the apology, showing his maturity and growth. Oh well, like you perfectly stated, his calling was to be a piano teacher and he was a wonderful mentor and friend to Kyle. Really loved that storyline.

I'm going to respond to some other points that you and Patricia made tonight.

Looking forward to it!

[break the window]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) Excellent responses Michelle and Patricia. I honestly don’t know what Madison was expecting from Andy, but all he wanted to do was protect his son and pay her to go away, which she did. Since she chose to have the baby and give that baby up for adoption, there was no reason for her to tell Ephram when she saw him in New York, and it seems like she just wanted to hurt him and Andy. She never should have gotten involved with Ephram in the first place and have sex with him, and she didn’t have to tell him that she had his baby just before his Julliard audition. Everything about Madison was bad and wrong, and I wish that they had never introduced her character.

I get why Madison's character was introduced, but why they carried it as far as they did is beyond me. Sure the writers wanted to create a conflict between Andy and Ephram, but Madison was the only way to do it!? Andy was pissed enough that Ephram and Madison started dating. Why add pregnancy into the mix? There were a lot of ways just dating could've gone wrong. Ephram was still on the "i'm better than my father things I am" kick, so why isn't that enough. Ephram always wanted to prove he was an adult...why not just go with that. That's enough material for Ephram to go AWOL as he did and still hold a grudge against Andy.

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) I hated that Ephram apologized to that witch. He had nothing to apologize for. She was the one in the wrong, and not him.

He didn't owe her anything. She willingly slept with him on multiple occasions. SHE told Andy she was pregnant, SHE didn't tell Ephram. SHE put the baby up for adoption. SHE wrote Andy to say SHE didn't want anything else from him....I could go on.

See the commonality there. Madison made ALL the decisions and Ephram is apologizing? Man, he's forgiving.

[Jerry D]

I completely agree that Delia would never need to know about Julia’s affair. Due to her age at the time of Julia’s death and her much more easy going nature to begin with, Delia never harbored the resentment that Ephram had toward Andy. In addition to that she didn’t seem to witness Andy and Julia’s fighting, which Ephram did witness and which prompted his accusations to Andy that he was cheating on Julia, which basically forced Andy to tell Ephram about Julia’s affair.

Andy’s relationship with Ephram was very different from his relationship with Delia, and Delia was very different from Ephram, although when the show ended she had just entered her teenage years so her relationship with Andy would have changed (and we saw it was already changing) as she evolved from a sweet little girl to a moody teenager, but I don’t think that she would ever been as moody as Ephram was.

There would be nothing to gain and a lot to lose for Andy or Ephram to reveal Julia’s affair to Delia after so many years had passed.

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by fulfilledღ (View Post) I get why Madison's character was introduced, but why they carried it as far as they did is beyond me. Sure the writers wanted to create a conflict between Andy and Ephram, but Madison was the only way to do it!? Andy was pissed enough that Ephram and Madison started dating. Why add pregnancy into the mix? There were a lot of ways just dating could've gone wrong. Ephram was still on the "i'm better than my father things I am" kick, so why isn't that enough. Ephram always wanted to prove he was an adult...why not just go with that. That's enough material for Ephram to go AWOL as he did and still hold a grudge against Andy.

I also understand why Madison’s character was introduced but like you said Patricia I don’t understand why they took things so far with her and why we were never allowed to be rid of her. The pregnancy news hung over Season Three like a ticking time bomb, and when that time bomb went off, it did so much damage to the key relationships on the show, and much of Season Four was spent recovering from that time bomb, and if we had gotten a Season Five, we would have been stuck with Madison again at the end of Season Four and the beginning of Season Five. Every other bad relationship that we saw on the show ended and we never saw those characters again, but Madison kept turning up like a bad penny.

Like you said, there were plenty of other ways to create and continue conflict between Ephram and Andy, and we didn’t need Madison to accomplish that.

Originally Posted by fulfilledღ (View Post) ]He didn't owe her anything. She willingly slept with him on multiple occasions. SHE told Andy she was pregnant, SHE didn't tell Ephram. SHE put the baby up for adoption. SHE wrote Andy to say SHE didn't want anything else from him....I could go on. See the commonality there. Madison made ALL the decisions and Ephram is apologizing? Man, he's forgiving.

Ephram was a lot more forgiving than we the audience were! He didn’t owe her an apology and he didn’t owe her anything.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) I completely agree that Delia would never need to know about Julia’s affair. Due to her age at the time of Julia’s death and her much more easy going nature to begin with, Delia never harbored the resentment that Ephram had toward Andy. In addition to that she didn’t seem to witness Andy and Julia’s fighting, which Ephram did witness and which prompted his accusations to Andy that he was cheating on Julia, which basically forced Andy to tell Ephram about Julia’s affair. Andy’s relationship with Ephram was very different from his relationship with Delia, and Delia was very different from Ephram, although when the show ended she had just entered her teenage years so her relationship with Andy would have changed (and we saw it was already changing) as she evolved from a sweet little girl to a moody teenager, but I don’t think that she would ever been as moody as Ephram was. There would be nothing to gain and a lot to lose for Andy or Ephram to reveal Julia’s affair to Delia after so many years had passed.

Excellent summary and analysis, Jerry. I completely agree with your every word.

I love your bold part. I firmly believe IF we would have received a season 5, it would have shifted into a father/daughter theme as we watched Delia in her teenage years and their relationship enduring ups and downs as a result. You are right about Delia having a different personality than Ephram. She would never be as moody as Ephram. LOL.

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) Excellent summary and analysis, Jerry. I completely agree with your every word.

Thanks Michelle!

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) I love your bold part. I firmly believe IF we would have received a season 5, it would have shifted into a father/daughter theme as we watched Delia in her teenage years and their relationship enduring ups and downs as a result. You are right about Delia having a different personality than Ephram. She would never be as moody as Ephram. LOL.

Yes, she definitely would never be as moody as Ephram, but I think she would be very different from the sweet little girl in earlier seasons. I've seen that in my own life. Some of my neighbors have daughters, and when they were little, they were really sweet and they'd always say hello, but now that they're teenagers, they either don't say hello at all or they basically grunt a cold hello. When Teresa and I walk Goldie (and before that Chance), there are two girls at one house that would always say hello and say how cute Chance and Goldie were, but now that they're teenagers they don't say hello at all if we see them. It makes me sad to see that happen.

[break the window]

You can tell from just a few episodes that Ephram inherited Andy's personality and emotions and Delia inherited Julia's personality emotions.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) Thanks Michelle! Yes, she definitely would never be as moody as Ephram, but I think she would be very different from the sweet little girl in earlier seasons. I've seen that in my own life. Some of my neighbors have daughters, and when they were little, they were really sweet and they'd always say hello, but now that they're teenagers, they either don't say hello at all or they basically grunt a cold hello. When Teresa and I walk Goldie (and before that Chance), there are two girls at one house that would always say hello and say how cute Chance and Goldie were, but now that they're teenagers they don't say hello at all if we see them. It makes me sad to see that happen.

Awe that’s too bad. Yes, most certainly, hormones and life moving ahead fast will do that to even the kindest teen girls. Certainly, Andy would have his hands full with Delia. Also, even though Delia was too young to feel major pain over the loss of her mother, as a teen, she will go through her own version of mourning, especially with her father remarried. She’s going to want to ask a lot of questions. Since she was too young, the questions will be overflowing about her mother, her mother and father, their family unit back in New York City. She will have a lot of questions while searching for answers.

[break the window]

what about this question...

If Nina and Jake never got involved, how would that change things between Nina and Andy getting together?

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by fulfilledღ (View Post) what about this question... If Nina and Jake never got involved, how would that change things between Nina and Andy getting together?

Good question!

Let's do it.

Changing title.