Jordan23

twoods: It was probably easier for her to tell her co-workers/friends about what happend than directly going straight to the police afterwards. I can't imagine being in her position but if that indeed happend, she was raped, then I can only imagine how hard it was to come forward in the first place. [img]smilies/look.gif[/img]

twoods

I agree Pat but you know that the defense is going to jump all over the fact that she didnt directly go to the hospital or police, but was already telling her friends and coworkers.

SuperDeluxe

No offense, but ever heard of rough sex? It basically boils down to NO one knows what happened in that room.

and If the trial is NOT moved to denver, if he gets convicted, He will most likely get a retrial. There is NO WAY he can get a fair trial in the small town where the girl is from.

ursa major

I think this argument will hold little weight if what's being reported is true. Rough sex is one thing numerous bruises, torn clothing, and a crying victim
with solid witnesses and evidence to back it up is another.

And I agree I don't think there's any way Kobe can get a fair try in that small town. They need to move it to a bigger city, where people might be more objective.

Kimba

So today was Kobe's initial day in court. Very short as promised. I was surprised that Vanessa didn't travel along with him, although the hearing was so short.

A friend of mine said NBA TV on digital cable was reporting that their was anal sex without a condom. And other news reports were saying that the alleged victim also had visible marks on her face and neck area. These bruises will supposedly show up in the pictures that were taken at the hospital.

The more information that comes out, the worse it sounds.

The possible lack of a condom totally astounds me. Considering this day and age, and the fact that he didn't even KNOW this girl... I can only hope that turns out to be false. Nobody in his position should be that stupid. Or at least, I wouldn't think so.

Anyway, at this point in time, I'm leaning toward thinking he did it. Basically, I believe that they had consensual foreplay, as has been reported, but that at some point, perhaps after actual penetration, the woman changed her mind, and that's when it crossed over into a violent act.

Kobe may actually believe he's innocent because at some point she may have consented to sex. But if at any point she said, no, then he should have stopped.

I'm wondering now if she told him to stop because it got rough. I'm wondering if she told him to stop and THEN it got rough. I'm wondering a whole bunch of things.

And on top of that, the actual charges against him also include imprisonment - they are saying he wouldn't let her leave the room.

None of this is looking good for Kobe, and it makes sense why his defense team recommended a special investigator to find the source of these leaks to have them stopped. And the judge saying that these leaks have way too much information that only those associated with the case would know, leads credence to their validity.

Sigh...

It's too bad he'll probably never testify, cause I just wanna know - what the hell was he thinking??? I mean, really. To pick up some random woman he had just met??

I really don't get it.

Next we have the preliminary hearing on Oct 9th. Should be an even bigger circus.

Kimba

twoods

Sigh indeed Kimba. I just dont know what to believe now, and I thought that Kobe was going to testify?

Jordan23

Kimba, I agree w/ your post...I'm wondering all these things too. Just doesn't make sense anymore...

Drekkan

First to whether he'll testify. That's a tossup. The majority of times a defendant should NEVER testify. They usually end up screwing themselves. However, with someone as charming, witty, and with boyish goodlooks like Kobe testified, well, he'd have quite an impact in his favour. Like I said, toss up.

As for the coworkers. I'm a little suspicious. These people are her friends, right? They're close to her. Why do they only come out of the woodwork and say this when things start swinging Kobe's way? Maybe they're trying to help their friend out. I don't know. Also, rough sex can be really rough, that doesn't make it rape.

Ultimately, this will come down to a case of he said she said; which is why I, if I was a jury member, would vote to acquit. There's no hard evidence, only one person's word against another's. There IS reasonable doubt in my mind right now, and that's all that is required.

Also, part of this is a reaction against our society. Accusations of rape are becoming much more popular, which leads to the question, why are rape rates going up while crime rates are going down (esp. violent crime). The answer is possibly because of human sentiment. Nice sweet looking girl (they can't be attacked in court over previous conduct) accuses big scary man (who CAN be attacked over previous conduct; big disparity there) of rape. Jury takes pity and convicts the man (who may well be innocent).

Slate.com has an interesting piece on rape. I'd encourage everyone to go read it.

Chi159

How do we know there�s no hard evidence? There�s been a lot of leaks thus far, but there�s a reason that both sides have asked to keep information regarding the case confidential. I don�t see how we can make any judgments on the evidence or facts of this case until it actually goes to trial. All the public has been given is bits and pieces of what the media reports, and a lot of that is hearsay.

What exactly is the �reaction� against our society? I�m just curious. Granted, there have been a number of false allegations made against professional athletes in the past, many of which included accusations of rape. That doesn�t necessarily imply that the accuser falls into this category. As for why reported incidents of rape have increased, that�s probably because society has become more �accepting� of it and less women feel ashamed to speak out. Crying rape is not en vogue. For some people, I�m sure it�s about the money, but that�s not the case for most. This girl had to know the public scrutiny and humiliation she would have to deal with for going to the police, especially because it�s Kobe Bryant. I can�t attest to her personality or past actions, but that takes a lot of moxy if she�s full of it.

As for the latest info. about the bellhop saying that the accuser told him what happened, why is that shady? Just because he�s a co-worker, that doesn�t necessarily mean he�s a friend. And even so, I think that adds more validity to the prosecution�s case since the girl didn�t just wait 24 hours �to concoct a scheme.� The fact that she spoke out right after the alleged incident makes what happened in that hotel room more questionable, especially since it�s been reported that she had visible bruises and scratches, along with torn clothing.

Right now, I don�t know what to think. I tend to believe that Kobe and the accuser engaged in consensual sex in the beginning and that she probably changed her mind during intercourse. If that�s the case, it will be interesting to see how the prosecution tries to prove that it was not, indeed, �rough sex.�

Drekkan

Actually, she waited for a while before going to the cops. She didn't accuse him right away. s for the bellhop, again, I must ask, why wait so long. I would have thought that as soon as it came out that she was supposedly raped he would have gone straight to the police.

As for further evidence, perhaps what I should say (and though I said), is that with the evidence we have now, I'd have to acquit.

In a case of he-said she-said the only thing that might help Kobe is his charm. And that just levels the playing field. Think about it. You have a young, innocent girl. Taken advantage of. She can't be attacked by the defence, because of victim protection acts nothing about her is admissable. Then you have big mean rapist; who the prosecution (who speaks first and last) has painted to be an ogre of the worst sort. There's a natural tilt.

Here's the slate site:http://slate.msn.com/id/2086422/

Also, you seen "The Life of David Gale". For those that haven't, in one section he gets drunk. Girl comes onto him in bathroom. They end up having concensual sex. She wants it rough, very rough. Afterwards she leaves. Next thing you know she's turned on the waterworks and he's fighting a rape charge (that ends up tarnishing him for life).

Chi159

Yes, I know that she waited to go to the cops. That�s nothing out of the ordinary. But the fact that she told a co-worker about the supposed incident right after it happened does help her case. There�s no doubt about it. And we don�t know if the bellhop just stepped forward now, or if the prosecution knew about his interaction with the accuser well in advance. The media just happened to find out about this information now. I don�t see why this guy would come forward for the hell of it, because he�s made it well known that he wants nothing to do with the media. So far, he hasn�t been doing this for media attention.

Because of his persona and �good guy� notoriety, I don�t see Kobe Bryant being painted this way. Not at all. In fact, I tend to think that the accuser has been put on trial more than he has. It seems that more people have been quick to assume that the girl is lying and is out for the fame due to her past (trying out for �American Idol� and going to the hospital for attempted suicide) than the possibility that Kobe might actually have raped her. Kobe has his clean cut image working for him right now, which is why if he�s truly guilty that this girl is facing an uphill battle.

Like I�ve said before, I�m not going to make a decision about who�s telling the truth until more facts come out and this case goes to trial. Even then, I�m not sure I will ever be convinced either way. All I know is that both sides have evidence working against them and in their favor. Kobe certainly didn�t look good denying having contact with the accuser when first approached by the police. Nor did he look exactly credible putting up the affront that he would never do anything like commit infidelity, let alone rape. As they say, image is everything.

Kimba

A person not immediately reporting a crime doesn't mean one didn't happen. A large majority of rapes (IF reported) don't come immediately afterwards. Admitting it to a co-worker who saw her apparently disheveled with torn clothing and visible marks, is completely different than going to the police and making a formal complaint. Because that IS putting your life under a microscope, and who really wants that?

The family has been virtually secluded turning down all monetary offers for their story. So, I'm not sure money is a motivating factor here.

And without hearing the girl's testimony and the physical evidence, I'd acquit right now too. But that's why there's a trial - to present that evidence. I seriously doubt the DA would be going forward if he thought he couldn't win. He must have supreme faith in the evidence.

As for Kobe...he's charming? His charm has always been lost on me. But that aside, we don't know him. I don't know if he's really charming or not. And furthermore, because he's been so closed off to his teammates and other NBA players, nobody is really stepping forward to vouch for him. Nobody on his own team has stepped forward to say he would NEVER do this. Nobody. Why? Cause nobody knows. All they can do is HOPE he didn't.

Kimba

angelfallon

Actually Karl Malone (who I guess is going to be on the team next season) vouched for Kobe on Extra saying he is good friends with him and he and the rest of the Lakers are going to stick by him and support him through this so I assume most if not all of his teamates believe and not just hope that Kobe is innocent.

Brandy also came out supporting him saying something like she knows Kobe and everything she knows about him would not lead her to believe that he could ever be capable of doing something like this.

I think a lot of celebrities feel like they know Kobe and know he couldn't do something like rape but then again they probally thought he wouldn't cheat on his wife either...

ursa major

I don't think many celebrities are shocked by Kobe's infidelity. I mean come on, how many times have we seen in the news were someone's been busted for cheating on their spouse, or leaving one hubby or wife, for a lover, so I don't think him cheating was a huge surprise. As far as Brandy goes, I remember back in the day they were close friends, he even escorted her to her prom, so I'm thinking she's basing her opinions off of personal experiences with him.

Kimba - I agree. I really don't know what to think at this point. I'm still on the fence and will remain there until we get the full stories during the trial.

[ 08-07-2003: Message edited ursa major ]

Kimba

The thing about Kobe's fidelity is that he wore it like a badge of honor. There was an article in the LA Times were he actually ended an interview when someone teased him about going to Brazil and being tempted. His response was terse: "I would never cheat on my wife".

So him being caught being unfaithful is HUGE cause he's always claimed publically even when not asked that he was faithful.

As for Karl Malone vouching for him...I put that in the same league as Charles Barkley. It would seem to me that it would carry more weight if/when SHAQ came out publically and supported him. Or some other Laker starter.

Kimba