Sleepy Hollow - Paradise Lost | 2x12 | Episode Discussion - Page 2

**eternalfate** · 01-06-2015, 08:18 PM

One thing I loved with Orion that was refreshing is that he had a motive and knew where he stood. He wanted to get rid of the world of all evil, and his way of doing it might not be a way people agree with but his intentions are good.

I feel that Katrina is sort of getting in the way of Ichabod and Abbie job as witness, to me it's a bit ridiculous to allow every single Horseman to live because of past history. If that's the case, they should look into every one's past before they go for the kill.

Everyone can have a sob story.

I'm saying this as a viewer who loves Abraham more than Ichabod at the moment.

Abraham is the Horseman of Death. Ichabod and Abbie duties as the witness is to go up against him, not ally themselves with him because Katrina sees the good in him... or even Ichabod's past with him.

Henry was the Horseman of War. Their jobs as the witnesses was to defeat him.
Two other Horsemen we haven't met yet. I wonder what their sob story will be.

I do however like the fact that Katrina is admitting to her part played in making Abraham evil, and Ichabod showing some sympathy for him... with Katrina though, I think her ... romantic feelings are getting in the way because she saw this soft side of him that she thought disappeared and that's why she wants to save him. She just doesn't want him to die. She wouldn't have cared if this was episode 2x01.

Orion is a refreshing character, and angel who want to get rid of the world of all wickness, who doesn't understand how the witness can ally themselves with the evil forces that they are suppose to be against. I feel if Abbie had a better partner, things would be different cause most of the time Ichabod allows his personal feelings to get in between his duties.

TheCheshireKitten · 01-06-2015, 09:42 PM

The thing with Orion becoming an ally, and that could happen, is that he would have to change/be shown the error of his ways, too.

He isn't that much better than the Horseman/Team Evil, regardless of his intentions. It was implied in the phone conversation with Abbie and Ichabod that he'd caused several disasters. How many died then? And how many innocents would suffer/die due to his planned "cleansing" of the world?

Good intentions. Evil actions.

Allying with Orion as he is now wouldn't be any better than allying with Abraham.

**eternalfate** · 01-06-2015, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheCheshireKitten (View Post)

The thing with Orion becoming an ally, and that could happen, is that he would have to change/be shown the error of his ways, too.

He isn't that much better than the Horseman/Team Evil, regardless of his intentions. It was implied in the phone conversation with Abbie and Ichabod that he'd caused several disasters. How many died then? And how many innocents would suffer/die due to his planned "cleansing" of the world?

Good intentions. Evil actions.

Allying with Orion as he is now wouldn't be any better than allying with Abraham.

I don't know much on his history to really discuss it... I know about the others.
My main point is that the Witness: Ichabod and Abbie really shouldn't be allying with any evil forces. The Four Horseman are evil, and it is there job to defeat them not join them.

That's basically what my main point was.

sniffles · 01-06-2015, 11:26 PM

What I don't understand is the need Katrina (Ichabod as well by lack of higher brain functioning) has for saving Headless. I do not see a way to erase the fact that he has killed countless human beings, NO matter the circumstances behind his actions. Katrina's need to redeem everyone who has tried to bring on the end of humanity does not make her seem compassionate or forgiving, it makes her seem unhinged/not right/foolish/stupid. I can not take this foolishness any longer, something/someone needs to go.

TheCheshireKitten · 01-07-2015, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eternal◘fate (View Post)

I don't know much on his history to really discuss it... I know about the others.
My main point is that the Witness: Ichabod and Abbie really shouldn't be allying with any evil forces. The Four Horseman are evil, and it is there job to defeat them not join them.

That's basically what my main point was.

They seem to be intentionally muddying the waters of good vs. evil. Mileage may very on whether one likes it or not.

I've never had much issue with the idea of redeeming Abraham other than missing Headless, given the circumstances of how he became Death. I just wish they would be more clear on how much of a choice he had and whether he's still frozen in the state of mind he was in while dying.

My point with Orion was just that I see him as a further extension of water muddying. I definitely think the takeaway from that phone conversation and Orion later telling Abbie about "cleansing" the world was that Ichabod was correct in surmising those things Orion had been present for, he caused.

violasghost · 01-07-2015, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eternal◘fate (View Post)

I feel that Katrina is sort of getting in the way of Ichabod and Abbie job as witness, to me it's a bit ridiculous to allow every single Horseman to live because of past history. If that's the case, they should look into every one's past before they go for the kill.

Everyone can have a sob story.

I'm saying this as a viewer who loves Abraham more than Ichabod at the moment.

Abraham is the Horseman of Death. Ichabod and Abbie duties as the witness is to go up against him, not ally themselves with him because Katrina sees the good in him... or even Ichabod's past with him.

Henry was the Horseman of War. Their jobs as the witnesses was to defeat him.
Two other Horsemen we haven't met yet. I wonder what their sob story will be.

This is a very valid point eternalfate. I agree sacrifices have to be made and not everyone can or should get a happy ending. If I had a choice between saving Headless and Henry it would be Headless all the way. Atleast he was a good person at one point. I think Henry always had a chip on his shoulder and had been killing people long before Headless was resurrected with Ichabod. Although yeah this 'lets redeem all of the horsemen'really makes Abbie and Ichabod's job as witnesses rather pointless. I completely disagree that Frank Irving or Corbin had to die so these men could get their redemption.

I think at one point Abbie even made this argument but by the end of the episode she was toting a different story. Honestly that is another one of my issues with the show, these characters are giving me whiplash. Ichabod and his vows and then he goes around and does the opposite of what he says, or Ichabod and Katrina's relationship, one minute they wont talk to eachother then he runs to her the moment she calls him, and Abbie agrees to take out Headless and then in the end she's all like "Katrina was right."

The only thing that I have been able to gather is that usually the end of the episodes reveal the opposite of whatever was going down at the beginning.

~MelBelle~ · 01-07-2015, 11:57 AM

So finally just saw the episode.
I have allot to say about this episode, but I'm just going to point out main parts for me instead.

It's great to see Abbie and Ichabod working together again in a closer sense to season 1 (I'm not saying exactly but closer), LOVED seeing Irving again

(I think that was my absolute favorite part of the episode)

Abraham as headless again is fantastic news, the way they did it was balanced enough for me, cause there were certain parts I didn't care for and others I loved, so just glad to have him back.

loved seeing another side to Jenny, you know getting out there to have fun, even though it was interrupted we still got more to that side, and due to this I loved Nick's character more than I have this entire season.

They don't have to be a romantic pair, but I do like them as partners.

I loved that Abbie kept the ring, and the look like temptation, I really hope this is a mark to start another focus more on her character for next season.

Now as for Orion, I don't like him with Abbie, it's just meh.

Now this is odd I guess I'm the only one who noticed this, but I actually saw more attraction with Orion and Katrina.

Other than that, it was a interesting opener.

fox24 · 01-07-2015, 04:54 PM

The writers watch OUAt and decided to redeem the villains lol.

I did like this episode though especially in the beginning with Ichabod pondering what to do.

Mysterious Island Girl · 01-08-2015, 08:32 AM

I looked and found nothing on Angel Orion, but I then looked up Orion's Belt mythology and found lots regarding the star constellation.

Orion constellation is regarded as a hunter and has been depicted since 32,000 years ago. Many culture's regarded Orion as a god, or a shepperd of god as well. He got in trouble in a Greco-Roman myth when he declared he was oing to kill all the animals of earth.

I think this is where they've taken liberties to create a character somewhat historical.
Any other takes on this?

**eternalfate** · 01-09-2015, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheCheshireKitten (View Post)

They seem to be intentionally muddying the waters of good vs. evil. Mileage may very on whether one likes it or not.

I've never had much issue with the idea of redeeming Abraham other than missing Headless, given the circumstances of how he became Death. I just wish they would be more clear on how much of a choice he had and whether he's still frozen in the state of mind he was in while dying.

My point with Orion was just that I see him as a further extension of water muddying. I definitely think the takeaway from that phone conversation and Orion later telling Abbie about "cleansing" the world was that Ichabod was correct in surmising those things Orion had been present for, he caused.

I do agree with you on that although it's a very thin line... because you can't have everyone having a redemption because of what Katrina believes in.

I mean who's next?
It's like what Abbie said before she switched sides on Orion to Headless. If Headless decide to just start killing people, that's on the hands of the witnesses: Abbie and Crane. Every evil Headless do is their fault, since they want to go ahead and do whatever Katrina says.

Quote:

Originally Posted by violasghost (View Post)

This is a very valid point eternalfate. I agree sacrifices have to be made and not everyone can or should get a happy ending. If I had a choice between saving Headless and Henry it would be Headless all the way. Atleast he was a good person at one point. I think Henry always had a chip on his shoulder and had been killing people long before Headless was resurrected with Ichabod. Although yeah this 'lets redeem all of the horsemen'really makes Abbie and Ichabod's job as witnesses rather pointless. I completely disagree that Frank Irving or Corbin had to die so these men could get their redemption.

I think at one point Abbie even made this argument but by the end of the episode she was toting a different story. Honestly that is another one of my issues with the show, these characters are giving me whiplash. Ichabod and his vows and then he goes around and does the opposite of what he says, or Ichabod and Katrina's relationship, one minute they wont talk to eachother then he runs to her the moment she calls him, and Abbie agrees to take out Headless and then in the end she's all like "Katrina was right."

The only thing that I have been able to gather is that usually the end of the episodes reveal the opposite of whatever was going down at the beginning.

I agree with you and that's my main point, it feels like there is no need for Ichabod and Abbie to even be witnesses if they aren't willing to do the job correctly.
I feel like during Season 1 Abbie and especially Crane did things more right, took out the bad guys with not really focusing much on the back story.

Now that Katrina's come, she's kind of interfering in things and making stuff last longer than it should.

Like I expect Henry to return as the next big evil, as a Moloch like. So I don't believe he's dead at all... I think not killing Henry might oddly enough make things worst for them in the future cause I think Henry is [at this stage] about power.

I just feel like Ichabod has no kind of logic when he's around Katrina and it's one of the things damaging the series. Back during Season 1, Ichabod was so much more of a fun character to watch because he took his duty as witness more seriously and it was no background voice telling him to do what he believed in his heart was the right choice for the future and everything.

I agree with the whiplash.

london grammar · 01-10-2015, 07:50 AM

Yeah, I'm not really feeling Ichabod this season either. The whole vibe of the show feels strange now.

**eternalfate** · 01-10-2015, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by london grammar (View Post)

Yeah, I'm not really feeling Ichabod this season either. The whole vibe of the show feels strange now.

I gotta agree...

I don't know what it is but something about this show feel so different. I just don't even have that same excitement as I had during S1 days.

I didn't think it'll get this way so early.

ChakotaysLover · 01-10-2015, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eternal◘fate

I feel that Katrina is sort of getting in the way of Ichabod and Abbie job as witness,

It's either Katrina's way or no way apparently..... which is lame.

ERICA28 · 01-10-2015, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChakotaysLover (View Post)

It's either Katrina's way or no way apparently..... which is lame.

Katrina can only get in the way if the witnesses allow it. In this case the witness being Ichabod. What disgust me most is how passionate he is about the witness bond but when Katrina is involved he comes across torn and confused. Abbie will stand strong at first but by the end of the episode making comments like Katrina was right to let headless go

Really? Was it headless or the easter bunny who killed your friend and mentor Corbin? I hated this episode! Thank God Frank is back.

**Persephone** · 08-24-2015, 08:03 AM

Sleepy Hollow: “Paradise Lost”
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Fan Forum > Archived Television Shows > Sleepy Hollow > Paradise Lost \| 2x12 \| Episode Discussion