[ScarletCourt]

S/T shippers got no more than 30 seconds of bliss before Sybil complained about being tired. After no wedding and no Ireland, this was supposed to be our consolation prize and JF killed Sybil and bismirsched our only joyful moment! I won't even go into how this would negatively affect LMB.

Then he does it again for M/M. Recycle plots much?

[HarshBench]

Originally Posted by HarshBench (View Post) I feel like the reason they showed M/M holding baby Sybil together several times was to make up for the fact that they would get no time as parents together after their baby's birth due to the crash. So they went out of their way to give them some "baby time" together. No such consideration for S/T fans. They only got one moment together with their baby, and no effort to compensate for it. So M/M got to hold Sybbie together as consolation. No one cared about consoling S/T fans, and we were every bit as devastated and almost as numerous. BOOOO.

I was a little bothered by the scene in library after they found out about the baby but before they knew about Matthew. Isobel almost cheerfully remarked "these things are always nerve-wracking, but all's well that ends well."

Meanwhile Tom was sitting right behind her, Tom for whom the birth of his child had been far more than "nervewracking" but traumatic, tragic and life-ruining in many way.s

I love Isobel, but that was insensitive. And in a way their celebration with no consideration for how he must be feeling was callous too. Not that he wouldn't be happy for them, but that it might bring back bad memories for him. And he seemed more subdued than the others, not surprisingly.

No one that house really understands him except Mrs. Hughes. And Matthew, but only to a degree because he was upper-middle-class and a gentleman, never a servant.

But again I love Isobel, and I loved her talk with him at her house. And how she rolled her eyes at Violet and gave Tom a benign look when Violet talked about house-training him.

See, they did treat him like an animal.

[HarshBench]

Here's another thing about that Library scene.


Robert says: "I think of all the uncertainty between M/M, and when the money was lost, when everything was so dark. And now we have two healthy heirs and an estate in good order, and I wonder what have I done to deserve it."

All I can think is "WHAT ABOUT WHEN YOUR DAUGHTER DIED?!" I mean sure, he talked about things being "dark" but he never mentioned the WORST thing that happened. And he just prattles on about his heirs and his estate.....when his daughter is gone forever. And Tom is sitting right there.

So when he says "what have I done to deserve it?' I can't help but think he hasn't done anything to deserve it, and now is he getting his just desserts? Matthew's not, no one else is, but for Robert to lose his surrogate son is, in a way, retribution for all the mistake he made, all of his hurtful and wrong-heade behavior and the fact that he is focused on the estate and the heirs (and tradition, etc.) over and above his lost child.

Sorry, I don't mean for this to sound like a rant against Robert. It is a rant against the show. Because maybe we are MEANT to see the irony of that moment. I know I thought it, that he didn't deserve his good fortune. And maybe next season he will actually do some soul-searching. But the way it is presented, I think a lot of people will just feel sorry for him.

[ScarletCourt]

Good point! I didn't notice that until you pointed it out.

Also, there's no talk about his granddaughter! I guess that she's just a girl? Which makes me wonder whether that was the whole point of giving S/T a girl.

[HarshBench]

Originally Posted by ScarletCourt (View Post) Good point! I didn't notice that until you pointed it out. Also, there's no talk about his granddaughter! I guess that she's just a girl? Which makes me wonder whether that was the whole point of giving S/T a girl.

And no "Thank God Mary is safe" so much, either.

I do think we are meant to get the irony, actually. Robert had a fall from grace all season. Now he is really being tested.

[Andorra]

@Harshbench
I absolutely have to agree with you, this library scene in the CS felt totally weird. How could Robert talk about the loss of money and the "uncertaincy between Mary and Matthew" and not talk about Sybil??

[Patano]

More ranting from me.

S/T left DA to start a new life - now she’s buried at DA and he is stuck there in a cottage as Matthew’s sidekick. Once you enter DA, you cannot leave (or God will punish you).

Oh, I’m so sorry. There’s nothing more gratifying than being DA’s manager, after all. You may even find a farmer in your family tree (which obviously means you are a skilled farmer yourself too even though you spent most of your life in city!).
But of course, in JF’s (now twisted) mind nothing is wasted. Edith now takes the spot as the journalist in the family (and the supporter of progressive politics). I don’t even watch this anymore and I feel kicked in the stomach all the time.
Maybe for some people being DA manager would be a big gratification, but taking into account Tom’s character, past, skills and beliefs - this is regression.

Change understood in this way is fine and fitting for Matthew, but not for Tom. DA is for Tom also a symbol of class division and constraints, from which he wanted to escape. Now he becomes once more part of DA’s hierarchy, even though his rank is higher this time (but only due to the fact that he married the Earl’s daughter). He again succumbs in a way to this class system and its rules. Once again he is the Crawleys’ employee. Plus, he’s basically putting himself above certain people only because he has connections with the family. He becomes part of the established DA hierarchy, whether he wants it or not. I don’t see him liking this.

Tom got this job only because he is Crawleys’ son-in-law, not because of his skills. Tom and farming? This grandfather thing is a joke. He’s a city dweller, man interested in politics, cars, writing, reading and newspapers. Farming or managing - since when he’s got any skills in either of those?

I also hate Edith’s SL right now (and I was previously excited for it). Edith used to be my favourite character after S/T, but I can’t accept how she now fulfils S/T’s role on the show. Edith’s sudden interest in women’s rights? Edith was mocking Sybil in s1 about suffragettes and political rallies. Yes, her character did develop in s2, but it’s still too sudden. One day she’s jilted and laments about her spinsterhood, and then another: “Oh I’m the supporter of women’s rights!”. Yeah, but S/T are destroyed and someone must represent progressive politics on this show now. Nothing is wasted in JF’s universe! Ah, and another part of Sybil is in her little reincarnation. Poor baby.

Soon we won’t be able to distinguish Edith from Sybil and Tom from Matthew.

I really suspect that the script for the second part of s3 was rewritten after JBF and DS said that they would not be returning for s4. Firstly, there was an article saying that JF was writing script for s3 even before s2 premiere. Secondly - remember when Allen said that they had a reading of first five scripts? Yeah. The other 3 still needed to be corrected. BTW what about Pamukgate? So, it didn't get a closure in s3 after all. I suppose that the initial plan was for Pamukgate to be revelead in the second part of s3 (perhaps in connection with the Bates’ case). However, Sybil’s death overshadowed everything and JF couldn’t strike the Crawleys yet another blow at the same time (and there was another blow to come). That’s why Pamukgate stuff got delayed and Bates gets released without any “big bang revelation”, but by simply coming back to the suicide theory (suicide-murder-suicide, yeah it all makes sense). That's also why M/M’s fertility drama was so quickly resolved in this series. It’s becoming more and more evident to me that the second part of s3 is a just a quick rewrite.

Tom should have been written off with Sybil.It would be the only ending that would give his character justice. S/T grew and developed together and all the build-up was for them starting a new life outside DA TOGETHER. He and Sybil left Downton to pursue a new life together. This is how it should have remained no matter what. After what happened in earlier seasons, only that would now do justice to his character. Sybil and Branson were destined to change the world together. Not alone or not with other people. TOGETHER. They were an endgame couple. JF will only destroy Tom. This show is only a pathetic crap ATM. Tom will not get a GOOD storyline. Fellowes will only destroy and regress him.

Yet, actress’s departure was enough for Fellowes to throw everything away.It’s not that he didn’t care about them earlier - he did, of course not in the same way he cared about e.g. Mary, but he still did. Then JBF decided to leave and he threw everything away. In the original plan with just 3 seasons, S/T would have got their closure at the end of S3. So it could have been done. Yes, people - if DA had ended after 3 seasons, we would have got our happy ending.

Sybil and Tom were not just an “ordinary TV couple” - they were true inspiration for many people. How can we buy Tom with a woman who would not make the same sacrifices as Sybil did? How can we buy Tom with any other woman for whom he would not wait 6 years? S/T always had eyes only for each other. There weren’t any third parties.They were clearly meant only for each other. It should remain as such. Even in the new circumstances.Make Tom in some way spiritually in touch with Sybil and still let her motivate him and give him strength. It wouldn’t mean constant mourning, just no new romantic relationship.

But seriously - I just want Sybil/Tom happy together. Because they deserved it MUCH MORE than any other couple on this show. Sybil was a secondary character not tied to DA - if JF cannot deal with writing off such a character properly, then it really reflects badly about his abilities as a screenwriter.

Tom is not Tom anymore and he’ll never be our Tom again. Edith and her new journalist BF are the new S/T, people. She is the women’s vote supporter and he the journalist. Does JF really believe that people will buy it? Even Tom’s journalism was thrown away like a dirty shoe to make him a potential Matthew replacement. Tom at DA does not work, Fellowes, and will never work. It does not do his character justice. He should be written off somewhere - so why wasn’t he written off with very much alive Sybil?

I suppose that in case of Dan kill-off was the only option provided that Dan wanted to be written out completely. In case of Sybil, something else COULD have been done. But then - Dan’s departure made JF desperate to keep Tom on the show instead of writing him off with Sybil. Firstly, he would have lost even more actors. Secondly, he needs a young, upstairs male that will continue modernizing Downton and keep Robert in check. Tom is family, which makes him entitled to do so. Matthew leaves and what with the modernization of the estate and preparing it for another epoch? Baby Crawley, the next heir, is far too young. And we all know that Robert’s management can lead only to DA’s downfall.

S/T could have been really easily written off without destroying them as a couple and as individual characters. Jessica’s departure was not that harmful in itself, IMO, but combined with Dan’s departure led to the mess that we envisioned.
It’s sad (and a disgrace) that Tom is ultimately used as a pawn to ensure that DA survives. Indirectly, Sybil was also killed off in order to ensure that DA would be appropriately managed.

[HarshBench]

Originally Posted by Patano (View Post) More ranting from me. S/T left DA to start a new life - now she’s buried at DA and he is stuck there in a cottage as Matthew’s sidekick. Once you enter DA, you cannot leave (or God will punish you). Oh, I’m so sorry. There’s nothing more gratifying than being DA’s manager, after all. You may even find a farmer in your family tree (which obviously means you are a skilled farmer yourself too even though you spent most of your life in city!). But of course, in JF’s (now twisted) mind nothing is wasted. Edith now takes the spot as the journalist in the family (and the supporter of progressive politics). I don’t even watch this anymore and I feel kicked in the stomach all the time. Maybe for some people being DA manager would be a big gratification, but taking into account Tom’s character, past, skills and beliefs - this is regression. Change understood in this way is fine and fitting for Matthew, but not for Tom. DA is for Tom also a symbol of class division and constraints, from which he wanted to escape. Now he becomes once more part of DA’s hierarchy, even though his rank is higher this time (but only due to the fact that he married the Earl’s daughter). He again succumbs in a way to this class system and its rules. Once again he is the Crawleys’ employee. Plus, he’s basically putting himself above certain people only because he has connections with the family. He becomes part of the established DA hierarchy, whether he wants it or not. I don’t see him liking this. Tom got this job only because he is Crawleys’ son-in-law, not because of his skills. Tom and farming? This grandfather thing is a joke. He’s a city dweller, man interested in politics, cars, writing, reading and newspapers. Farming or managing - since when he’s got any skills in either of those? I also hate Edith’s SL right now (and I was previously excited for it). Edith used to be my favourite character after S/T, but I can’t accept how she now fulfils S/T’s role on the show. Edith’s sudden interest in women’s rights? Edith was mocking Sybil in s1 about suffragettes and political rallies. Yes, her character did develop in s2, but it’s still too sudden. One day she’s jilted and laments about her spinsterhood, and then another: “Oh I’m the supporter of women’s rights!”. Yeah, but S/T are destroyed and someone must represent progressive politics on this show now. Nothing is wasted in JF’s universe! Ah, and another part of Sybil is in her little reincarnation. Poor baby. Soon we won’t be able to distinguish Edith from Sybil and Tom from Matthew. I really suspect that the script for the second part of s3 was rewritten after JBF said that she would not be returning for s4. Firstly, there was an article saying that JF was writing script for s3 even before s2 premiere. Secondly - remember when Allen said that they had a reading of first five scripts? Yeah. The other 3 still needed to be corrected. BTW what about Pamukgate? So, it isn’t going to get a closure in s3 after all. I suppose that the initial plan was for Pamukgate to be revelead in the second part of s3 (perhaps in connection with the Bates’ case). However, Sybil’s death overshadowed everything and JF couldn’t strike the Crawleys yet another blow at the same time. That’s why Pamukgate stuff got delayed and Bates gets released without any “big bang revelation”, but by simply coming back to the suicide theory (suicide-murder-suicide, yeah it all makes sense). That's also why M/M’s fertility drama was so quickly resolved in this series. It’s becoming more and more evident to me that the second part of s3 is a just a quick rewrite. Tom should have been written off with Sybil.It would be the only ending that would give his character justice. S/T grew and developed together and all the build-up was for them starting a new life outside DA TOGETHER. He and Sybil left Downton to pursue a new life together. This is how it should have remained no matter what. After what happened in earlier seasons, only that would now do justice to his character. Sybil and Branson were destined to change the world together. Not alone or not with other people. TOGETHER. They were an endgame couple. JF will only destroy Tom. This show is only a pathetic crap ATM. Tom will not get a GOOD storyline. Fellowes will only destroy and regress him. Yet, actress’s departure was enough for Fellowes to throw everything away.It’s not that he didn’t care about them earlier - he did, of course not in the same way he cares about M/M, but he still did. Then JBF decided to leave and he threw everything away. In the original plan with just 3 seasons, S/T would have got their closure at the end of S3. So it could have been done. Yes, people - if DA had ended after 3 seasons, we would have got our happy ending. Sybil and Tom were not just an “ordinary TV couple” - they were true inspiration for many people. How can we buy Tom with a woman who would not make the same sacrifices as Sybil did? How can we buy Tom with any other woman for whom he would not wait 6 years? S/T always had eyes only for each other. There weren’t any third parties.They were clearly meant only for each other. It should remain as such. Even in the new circumstances.Make Tom in some way spiritually in touch with Sybil and still let her motivate him and give him strength. It wouldn’t mean constant mourning, just no new romantic relationship. But seriously - I just want Sybil/Tom happy together. Because they deserved it MUCH MORE than any other couple on this show. Sybil was a secondary character not tied to DA - if JF cannot deal with writing off such a character properly, then it really reflects badly about his abilities as a screenwriter. Tom is not Tom anymore and he’ll never be our Tom again. Edith and her new journalist BF are the new S/T, people. She is the women’s vote supporter and he the journalist. Does JF really believe that people will buy it? Even Tom’s journalism was thrown away like a dirty shoe to make him a potential Matthew replacement. Tom at DA does not work, Fellowes, and will never work. It does not do his character justice. He should be written off somewhere - so why wasn’t he written off with very much alive Sybil? I suppose that in case of Dan kill-off was the only option provided that Dan wanted to be written out completely. In case of Sybil, something else COULD have been done. But then - Dan’s departure made JF desperate to keep Tom on the show instead of writing him off with Sybil. Firstly, he would have lost even more actors. Secondly, he needs a young, upstairs male that will continue modernizing Downton and keep Robert in check. Tom is family, which makes him entitled to do so. Matthew leaves and what with the modernization of the estate and preparing it for another epoch? Baby Crawley, the next heir, is far too young. And we all know that Robert’s management can lead only to DA’s downfall. S/T could have been really easily written off without destroying them as a couple and as individual characters. Jessica’s departure was not that harmful in itself, IMO, but combined with Dan’s departure led to the mess that we envisioned. It’s sad (and a disgrace) that Tom is ultimately used as a pawn to ensure that DA survives. Indirectly, Sybil was also killed off in order to ensure that DA would be appropriately managed.

So I guess Dan really is to blame for everything. And Fellowes, and the almighty dollar. Or pound, whatever. But not Jessica. She had every reason to hope and believe that Sybil would get proper closure.

This show always does the "tell and not show" thing. So Tom says he is the same man inside, that he'll always be an Irish Boy. Let him prove it next season, or I won't believe it.

Matthew tells Mary she is a wonderful woman. Let her prove it too, for longer than one episode.

[HarshBench]

Originally Posted by Andorra (View Post) @Harshbench I absolutely have to agree with you, this library scene in the CS felt totally weird. How could Robert talk about the loss of money and the "uncertaincy between Mary and Matthew" and not talk about Sybil??

Because he is always focused on the estate, on Mary and Matthew and the succession, etc. And note that he was the only one in the episode who didn't bring up Sybil, who wasn't shown to be thinking about her. Cora, Tom, Mrs. Hughes, Carson, Violet.....everyone but Robert.

And I think that's what we were being told in that scene, actually. His priorities were skewed. He wondered what he did to deserve his good fortune, and Violet commented that we don't always get what we deserve. Cut to dead Matthew.

Matthew didn't get what he deserved, and neither did Sybil. But in this case, Robert did. He placed all the importance on one thing at the expense of others, he made mistake after mistake. His failure to mention his daughter, followed by his musing over how he got so lucky, screamed to me: "your luck has run out, dude." Karma has come back to bite him.

That's how I see it. Robert has been portrayed in a bad light all season. The library scene was subtle, but it was there. This is the wrath of God. It's aimed at Robert, like he is some kind of lightning rod. Everyone else is pretty much blameless.

[ScarletCourt]

I thought the idea that Matthew never drew up a will after he married Mary and especially when he took the Swire money was ridiculous. He was a lawyer of wills and conveyances! I might have been less annoyed if he had been a lawyer of child custody battles. But for him to be a lawyer of wills and conveyances (this was needed in S1 so that he could look into the entail) and not draw up a will is tantamount to a cobbler's children without shoes except that he could have not gone on vacations or attended fewer dinner parties and done this or hired another lawyer to do it since he had the Swire Fortune behind him.

As well, for this to be cleaned up by another letter from beyond the grave at the last possible minute was just lazy plotting. Lavinia's letter was already deus ex machina enough, this is much worse than that. What's next? Doing stuff because it would have been what Matthew would have wanted?

[alertthecorgis]

What's next? Doing stuff because it would have been what Matthew would have wanted?

Whatever do you mean?????

I haven't seen the episodes as cannot get them, but I don't see why that letter was really necessary. It didn't add that much to the suspense, did it? Mary could have been Matthew's heir and just not want to take an active part in the estate until Violet and Tom (it seems...from what I can tell) push her back "out there."

And more babies please.

[ScarletCourt]

Whatever happened to the children in the C/S? Do they no longer exist? i don't believe Sybbie or George were mentioned once in the C/S. The only "child" remotely mentioned is Edith's.

That brings me to another point. Can anyone have children without losing a partner/spouse?

Also, can Sarah Bunting be more pushy and rude? If she does become Tom's love interest, I think it will be despite all that she's done so far.

[Andorra]

Originally Posted by ScarletCourt (View Post) Whatever happened to the children in the C/S? Do they no longer exist? i don't believe Sybbie or George were mentioned once in the C/S. The only "child" remotely mentioned is Edith's. That brings me to another point. Can anyone have children without losing a partner/spouse? Also, can Sarah Bunting be more pushy and rude? If she does become Tom's love interest, I think it will be despite all that she's done so far.

George is mentioned once by Mary. And I know the children actors of season 4 didn't match agewise in the CS, but they could have at least made an effort of an explanation.

I don't know, like when Edith asked Tom he would come with her to London, he could have said "I don't want to leave Sybbie so long" or something like that.

Or when he went to the car that took him to London he could have left some instructions for her well being, said over his shoulder. That wouldn't have been too much effort, would it?

Completely agree about Sarah Bunting. What an awful character!!

My only consolation is, that she is well hated all over the internet and I haven't seen anything, but horror about her as Tom's potential love interest. So I hope her behaviour is deliberate and we're indeed not meant to like her!

[L i N d $ @ y]

Ugh, the kids seemingly didn't exist since the last time they appeared. I don't expect we'll get more screentime next season, tbh.

Edna & Sarah were characters that we can do without this season, tbh. Especially Edna. I didn't see her point coming back AT ALL.

S4 has been a rollercoaster for me. Quality in writing is dwindling since S3 but I'll take S3 over this season.

Also this whole thing with Mary is really laughable. I so do not care who she ends up with now. As much as I do not care who Tom ends up with at this point. They need to introduce another girl for him. Sarah is not a good choice (if she ends up being the one), imo.

Poor Edith still can't catch a break.

[looking at the stars]

Is it planned that Edna comes back? not in my head