nataliece

I have read it that the script had Ce's salacious and morally questionable scene with Caterina, which clearly refers to a rape born out of his desire to punish her for going against the borgia family, and I also believe Lucrezia's running away from him to Nepi put him into a rage that could also bring this scene about. I had so looked forward to Cesare's confession of his love for LU when he went to Nepi to bring her back..and afterwards to have her reign in Naples as he planned. Season 4 would have been just great...but alas...

Kadre

I have not read that, but in the Puzo book he goes to her nightly to rape her to punish her, but it`s clear from the beginning that she is really into it, as is he. Their sex was always kinda rough as she enjoys being dominated. Nothing to do with love, but I think Ces has despite it all a grudging admiration for Caterina.
We need a S 4.

il valentino

I think this is certainly true, but I would go a bit further. Cesare and Caterina have a connection that I think goes beyond him punishing her. They are very much cut from the same cloth and have a certain psychosexual thing going (Jordan commented on it in an interview). His physical relationship with her feeds a more primal instinct in him (domination, power, etc)

Historically, I think he learned to channel the violence in his personality, but it did come out periodically in hunting, bullfighting and perhaps in his relationship with Caterina.

BL.Arinna_1982

I don't think CC had a connection. I think he hated her for trying to kill his family. I also think the raping was one time thing, if there was any. I think he was drawn to her in s2, before him becoming the Prince, but I also think it was all over when he slept with Lucrezia.

Also, I don't think NJ would've proceeded with CC relationship. His version of CL is far more romanticized and he didn't even include both CL lovers, nor Cesare's children. He created his character totally devoted to war, ambition and Lucrezia, nothing else.

If there're other children, and yes I mean Rodrigo Jr., I'm almost completely sure that child would be Cesare. Also, Lucrezia's third marriage would be with impotent man, so Cesare wouldn't have to share her. He would grow more and more possessive of her and she'd like it I think. Well, not at first, but then she'd realize that she'd use that as her advantage for more power.

il valentino

Francois stated that he had seen some scripts from S4 and they did continue with the Cesare/Caterina thread, so I think it would have been a bit more complicated. His love for Lucrezia and whatever perverse satisfaction he gets with Caterina can exist side by side. He was a pretty complex character, so I don't think it has to be one or the other.

nataliece

Totally agree with you on all points. NJ's C/L line is very romanticized and in his version, we don't have Cesare prowling brothels or very much interested in sleeping with women, or doing many of the things his historical character was notorious for. For me there was no connection between him and Caterina apart from his desire to punish "the legend" and dominate her in every way, including sexually. So according to SE4 script that I mentioned, he has a one time morally questionable scene with her, which does ring like a brutal rape scene. As for Lucrezia in SE4, I am sure they would have a child - remember Juan's SE2 prophecy, possibly named Rodrigo Jr, and also, I highly doubt NJ's taking a route with Lu's third marriage. Like Juan's prophecy about the child, Machiavelli and Cesare's dialogue about Naples and Lucrezia's regency, is foreshadowing how her part would be played out in SE4.

I have not read that, but in the Puzo book he goes to her nightly to rape her to punish her,

I have read almost all books about the Borgia family, Puzo's novel among them, and it was the least likable book for me. NJ did not base his show on Puzo's novel, Sarah Bradford was a consultant for the series, as far as I know.

BL.Arinna_1982

Exactly my point. In NJ's version of Cesare, he's not interested in other women, except Lucrezia. He's more into his ambitions and war campaigns. NJ's version of Cesare is softened than the original or even perhaps Borgia's Cesare. I'm pretty sure they would go there with Mark's Cesare and I've also heard they're going nowhere with CL relationship. Color me surprised though, because I was thinking that Borgia's CL had much more chance to hook up than The Borgias CL and look what happened.

Although there's absolutely no build up in CL relationship in Borgia throughout the whole s1 in Borgia. There's this scene in the end of s1 where they almost sleep together. Never happened and I don't think it will happen, giving the spoilers I've read about s2.

This is why I was pleasantly surprised that The Borgia's CL actually went there. However, Francois' Cesare is less ruthless than Mark's Cesare. Mark's Cesare had no problem sleeping with other women and having kids with them. Unlike him, Francois Cesare is much more into his wars ambition than any other women. He's more interested to beat Caterina in her own game than to sleep with her. This is why I think if they'd continued with that raping scenario with Francois Cesare, that would scream too much OOC for me.

Kadre

I think that as a very intelligent man Ces duly appreciates that whatever Caterina tried to do (let`s not forget that she failed) to his family had been done by either him, or his brother, to her family first. It`s a bit like politics today. He calls her 'a legend', prepares rooms for her in the Castel St. Angelo, because 'she deserves nothing less', and he offers her his arm on her way to the gilded cage, because she 'took it once'. And she takes it, even though she knows that he is responsible for the death of her son. Their connection is in Caterina being Ces` most formidable opponent; he appreciates that as well. After she kept him hostage for a few days in S2/E5 to have her way with him, he is now going to turn the tables, just because he can. It won`t infringe on his relationship with Lu at all. When it comes to sex people were always good at compartmentalizing.

BL.Arinna_1982

I don't think they'd go there if there's a movie. My bet is now they're gonna turn the attention to Della Rovere. Maybe in s3 of Borgia something like this would happen, but I don't think that counts for The Borgias anymore.

il valentino

Definitely Kathrin! Even Francois' Cesare can be complex.

"So according to SE4 script that I mentioned, he has a one time morally questionable scene with her, which does ring like a brutal rape scene."

I doubt there would be such a scene as it would be really OOC for Francois' Cesare (he's not as cruel as the historical Cesare) and especially seen in light of what Kathrin just detailed above from the show.

Also, I wasn't aware that Bradford was a consultant on either The Borgias or Borgia. I thought she had something to do with the one back in the 80s.

Kadre

He is definitely complex. His relationship with Lu is burdened with guilt, and 'some things are better left unsaid', whereas with Caterina he knows that she can take all he can dish out. There are no complicated feelings to take into consideration, which is liberating in a way.

il valentino

Oh my....she can take all he can dish out.....just love this. Too delicious!

DGSAFDMD

They already said they're not doing anything with CL in Borgia? well what a god damn joke

Kadre

That being said; I think that part of the story would always have been a little side line. In S4 we would have seen Ces and Lu dealing with Alf`s death, we would have seen Lu pulling away a bit, a lot of the Prince knocking down castles, and dellaRovere spinning his web. And then sadly, Rod and Ces dying. I`m not sure how I would get over the latter.

nataliece

"Credit is given to the book ''Cesare Borgia'' by Sarah Bradford, and Miss Bradford is listed as a consultant to the production..." from the NY times article.

I agree that so far he has not been portrayed as cruel as the historical Cesare or either Borgia Cesare, which IMO is a disaster, but let's not forget that we have witnessed Cesare's ascension to power but not his wielding the absolute power, which would come in season 4 and many of his actions would be very cruel towards his enemies once he had them in his power - especially Caterina, the forever elusive enemy of the Borgia family, the one who caused never ending troubles for them and the one who wanted them all dead and nearly succeeded.

The article where some tidbits of the SE4 script were revealed referred to "a salacious and morally questionable scene between his character and Caterina" - these were the exact words, so it does show that either a brutal rape or a brutal beating scene would occur. I am inclined to believe it's the former because I don't see Cesare taking a brutal beating to a woman. or maybe he will let his soldiers rape her? Hmm, I don't know.

we would have seen Lu pulling away a bit,

That is inevitable because she is burdened by Alf's death and considers herself guilty but based on the last scene and Cesare's mine she has a little chance of escaping him. Not that she wants to escape him, she would want to have some free space. C/L has never been a side line story so far, and I am pretty sure it would not become one in season 4 because Lu's running away to Nepi, their reunion, Cesare's taking Naples for Lucrezia, his presence at her child-birthing, etc, would occupy a lot of season 4 time. I believe their reunion scene in Nepi would be absolutely great with Cesare's confession of his love for her and the intimacy between them that would follow his confession....

It's too sad that there is no news about the show renewal yet...