[Nikki K]

Oh, you know what I really really hate though (unrelated from the show) that's those historical novels where we learn all about the laundress who was Emperor Frederik Barbarossa's one and only true love but of course in secret. And stuff like that.

There are heaps of those kinds of books around that are about Cesare and some Mary Sue-like characters and I tried to read two - but I just couldn't. The perhaps better written but still unbearable (to me) one was one about some Caterina Vespucci - and I thought I could get through it because well, she was a scientist in a way... and I love to read about women in science but ... hmpf, I had to stop once Cesare was madly in love with her but she was madly in love with Guidobaldo Di Montefeltro (Elisabetta Gonzaga's husband) and all I wanted to do was bang my head against the wall.

And as for the Tudors... I started cringing when his sister Margaret married the Portuguese king... which was something I was pretty sure none of his two sisters did...

[Vanora]

That sounds like Mary Sues from fanfiction only with real characters then. I have somehow managed to avoid those in love-stories most of the time (though I read one with Richard Lionheart), but I read one by Philippa Gregory of a woman who became friends with both Bloody Mary and Elizabeth (princess still then), was way too Mary Sue-y and improbable.

The first season of the Tudors made me feel almost dizzy at points, since they messed up so much of what really happened. They wanted to open Henry's story at around 1520, but then the French King was already Francis I. They still wanted to use Henry's sister Mary's storyline of what happened in 1514, when she married the old French King Louis XII, so they made her marry a Portuguese king instead. But they named the sister Margaret because they felt it would be too confusing for viewers, since Henry's daughter's name was Mary too.

[Nikki K]

Yes - that seems to happen often in historical novels that include historical personae. At least that's what I found and I just cannot stomach this. But then I don't read a lot in that genre (anymore).

Oh yes, all the things you have mentioned above I wanted to call out but then I was too lazy to type. Especially the French court situation made me go woahwoahwoah that's not how that was, folks!!!11elevenhundredone

[Vanora]

It was good that they stuck more to timelines already in the second season, and even more later. I think the Tudors also taught them lots about making a show like this, which helped them prepare for The Borgias. What I like about both shows is that, despite the inaccuracies, they sometimes also go out of their way to show things how they really happened, complete with expensive sets.

The Tudors makers were very lucky in that an old depiction of the siege of Boulogne was found just weeks before the shooting, which helped them a lot.

[Nikki K]

My problem with The Tudors was that I just neither liked or respected any of the main players aside from Mary and then in that short time she was on Anne of Cleves. I guess Katherine Parr was a prudent and caculated her words wisely when she was about to be accused of being a Lutheran - that had my respect for a moment there.

I think Sarah Bolger was brilliant. She was my anker throught all the later seasons otherwise I would have probably would have given up. I know that back in the day I was really thinking wth do you mean by they cast Joss Stone??? I mean, I know her music and like it but, come one singers trying to be actors we see how that worked oh so well for Madonna and Justin Timberlake. But then I was really pleasantly surprised. Especially when she spoke such flawless German!

My main beef with The Tudors was me not being invested in the characters, then comes all the political stuff that sometimes was so in your face overshadowing the characters, often with their motivations in said matters not all that clearly shown. Those things made me so nervous that I started nitpicking when it came to historical inaccuracies, something I haven't done with The Borgias this season because I took an immediate liking to the characters and the way they were written. I haven't even done that with Borgia all that much, although I thought most of the characters were a bunch of bloody wankers, but at least the show was fast paced and after watching it three times (once in Italian, once in German, once in English ) I understand where some of them are coming from a bit better - which doesn't mean that I like them more but more understanding. So... I don't know... we'll see what their seasons 2 bring!

So but Jordan wasn't involved in The Tudors, right? Then there must be others on board in terms of producers etc.?

And oh, I didn't know about the siege. That's pretty cool!

[Vanora]

My guess is that there must be some overlap from the Tudors since it's both done by Showtime. Apart from Ruta, 'Cardinal Piccolomini' also had a role in the Tudors and the show has been presented as a successor of sorts.

Agree with you about Joss Stone. She did very well.

I also particularly liked Natalie Dormer and James Frain in it, as well as Sarah Bolger, who is highly talented.

I know far less about the Borgias than about the Tudors, so I always have to check back to see if stuff is really true with this series. The Tudors started with all kinds of stuff that was complete nonsense, like an uncle stabbed by French guys and the whole Margaret-Portugal thing. They also had a lot of unbelievable, but really true stuff in it that people I watched it with thought was fake.

Maybe I should start watching the other Borgia series some time

[Nonie]

13,076 - 12,678 = 398

[Vanora]

aaaaaaahhhhh!!! Two short of my personal goal of 400

(otherwise, not bad, eh? )

[Nonie]

Not bad at all

[Vanora]

Well, I'm aiming for 400 again this week

But this is better than what it has been for a long time, right?

[Nonie]

^^ You kidding me? Much, much better now that you're here!

[Vanora]

Haha, I'm really enjoying it here. Love that there are friendly people interested in history too.

And to really challenge myself (and hopefully others ), I'm gonna aim for 500 for next Monday!

[Nikki K]

Originally Posted by Vanora (View Post) My guess is that there must be some overlap from the Tudors since it's both done by Showtime. Apart from Ruta, 'Cardinal Piccolomini' also had a role in the Tudors and the show has been presented as a successor of sorts. I know far less about the Borgias than about the Tudors, so I always have to check back to see if stuff is really true with this series. Maybe I should start watching the other Borgia series some time

Perhaps the casting had less to do with Showtime than with the casting agency they hired. Idek. Perhaps we should look at imdb and see where what overlaps.

I'd say I know about the same about both time periods. If they need a successor for The Borgias I wonder what will be next.

And yes, please, please do. I'd love to discuss this with someone properly in more than one word sentences of disdain regarding other show. I mean, come on - we already established we like this one here better. So I think we are not being "unfaithful" acknowledging that once in a while there was something good or interesting about the other one. I'm just saying. If you have trouble finding it, let me know!

Also yes, things are so much more fun when there are people around to discuss things.

[Vanora]

Originally Posted by Nikki K (View Post) Perhaps the casting had less to do with Showtime than with the casting agency they hired. Idek. Perhaps we should look at imdb and see where what overlaps. I'd say I know about the same about both time periods. If they need a successor for The Borgias I wonder what will be next. And yes, please, please do. I'd love to discuss this with someone properly in more than one word sentences of disdain regarding other show. I mean, come on - we already established we like this one here better. So I think we are not being "unfaithful" acknowledging that once in a while there was something good or interesting about the other one. I'm just saying. If you have trouble finding it, let me know! Also yes, things are so much more fun when there are people around to discuss things.

Even if they had completely different people working for both shows, I think the Borgia crew must have taken a good look at the Tudors and seen what worked well and what didn't. The Borgias, thankfully, is less focused on random people as the Tudors was in its first season. Do you remember Thomas Tallis and the two sisters? It was boring and had nothing to do with the main story.

If they need a successor to the Borgias, I hope they'll look at some of the English Kings with large families. Both Henry II and Edward III's families would do well since they had lots of children and mistresses, as well as having to deal with scandals and wars.

That makes me want to think of casting possibilities

I will start looking for it and need an English or German version. Don't know any Italian, but the few words I learned from the Borgias

[Nikki K]

Originally Posted by Vanora (View Post) The Borgias, thankfully, is less focused on random people as the Tudors was in its first season. Do you remember Thomas Tallis and the two sisters? It was boring and had nothing to do with the main story.

Not of the top of my head which should tell you something about the storyline.

I guess I kind of hoped for see something on the French court or on the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation. Perhaps even on the Russians. Wasn't there a mini series a few years ago with Catherine Zeta-Jones as Catherine the Great?

That makes me want to think of casting possibilities

Oh yes! Please let's do that!

I will start looking for it and need an English or German version.

I can send you a PM with what I know... give me a few moments.