Merlin - Morgana|Katie McGrath #9: "You're a very fashionable lady!" - Bradley - Page 15

**samira_86** · 05-11-2011, 01:33 AM

they're so freaking ugly hahaha I don't even know who told her those were fashionable

sum1 · 05-11-2011, 06:30 PM

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Originally Posted by malaguetta (View Post)

As for evil Morgana, it appears that insofar as some fans are concerned she's been evil since season two and they just couldn't stand her in season one because she was such a Mary Sue. That's why I left the IMDB boards.

They thought she was a Mary Sue? Some people are too free with that label.

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Many people are only familiar with the Arthurian legends from the 1981 movie Excalibur. Is it accurate, strictly speaking, to say there is a great deal of latitude in retelling the tale of King Arthur. That said, in Excalibur Helen Mirren played an evil Morgana, but the screenwriters did give her credible reasons to behave the way she did. My whole point is, to some viewers Morgana is evil simply because she is Morgan(a) le Fay. Nevermind that Morgan was a complex, mutable character who could be Arthur's ally, as well as his adversary; that all came down to circumstances, as was the way in royal and noble families.

I'm not sure if it's Excalibur people are familiar with. That film was quite a while back. There's been more recent ones.

**samira_86** · 05-12-2011, 01:21 AM

How can she be a Mary Sue when she's never even been kissed??!!

malaguetta · 05-12-2011, 08:28 AM

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I'm not sure if it's Excalibur people are familiar with. That film was quite a while back. There's been more recent ones.

Excalibur is popular and influential in the United States. I should've specified that many Americans have their image of Morgan(a) le Fay colored by that film. It's more popular now than when it was released in the early eighties. Many of the movie's fans weren't even born when it was released. Although it's not based on a comic book, Excalibur has a very comic book sensibility. I don't use the term "comic book movie" in any derisive sense. Many good movies have been comic book movies, and many more intelligent than I both create and enjoy comic books.

As for more recent movies, Morgan(a) doesn't seem to have been in them. The most notable exception being the made for TV series, The Mists of Avalon; however, like the novel on which it's based, that retelling appeals primarily to those with a feminist mindset, not to the casual Arthurian fan.

Morgan le Fay appears in the made for TV Merlin starring Sam Neill, but (if I remember correctly) that also featured a talking horse named Rupert. Sadly, Rupert was just about the best thing in that venture, besides the accomplished Sam Neill.

The more recent King Arthur may have made money worldwide but was a bomb in America. I don't think Morgan was in it. I tried to watch it on TV -- but it was such an exercise in dreck, I couldn't even find it laughably bad. It was just a wretched mess.

sum1 · 05-12-2011, 12:01 PM

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Originally Posted by malaguetta (View Post)

Excalibur is popular and influential in the United States. I should've specified that many Americans have their image of Morgan(a) le Fay colored by that film. It's more popular now than when it was released in the early eighties. Many of the movie's fans weren't even born when it was released. Although it's not based on a comic book, Excalibur has a very comic book sensibility. I don't use the term "comic book movie" in any derisive sense. Many good movies have been comic book movies, and many more intelligent than I both create and enjoy comic books.

It's more theatrical than comic book. I really don't see how it's comic booky. It's not a great movie, but it's one of the better Arthurian movies, simply because the standard is low and Arthurian movies are generally not very good.

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As for more recent movies, Morgan(a) doesn't seem to have been in them.

As you mention, she's in the Merlin mini. She was also in the Guinevere tv movie as an evil version of Morgaine from Mists of Avalon, a sort of a nasty feminist who's high priestess of Britain.

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The most notable exception being the made for TV series, The Mists of Avalon; however, like the novel on which it's based, that retelling appeals primarily to those with a feminist mindset, not to the casual Arthurian fan.

I can't say it appeals either to anybody who respects ancient Celtic religion enough to want to see it portrayed accurately. It had its good points (such as Julianna Margulies), but apart from the Celtic religion issue, it also had terribly weak versions of Arthur and Lancelot, something which is actually quite common in Arthurian films. Mists is a well-known work, so I wouldn't say it's just feminists who watch it.

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Morgan le Fay appears in the made for TV Merlin starring Sam Neill, but (if I remember correctly) that also featured a talking horse named Rupert. Sadly, Rupert was just about the best thing in that venture, besides the accomplished Sam Neill.

It had worse things than a talking horse (Miranda Richardson's Queen Mab comes to mind). It was pretty bad, apart from Sam Neill. Morgan was just a pawn in it and not an impressive character. Which is a pity, because Helena Bonham Carter would be good for a proper Morgan.

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The more recent King Arthur may have made money worldwide but was a bomb in America. I don't think Morgan was in it. I tried to watch it on TV -- but it was such an exercise in dreck, I couldn't even find it laughably bad. It was just a wretched mess.

I really don't know why people hate this film so much. It was reasonably good (though the historical content was mostly crap). But yes, Morgan wasn't in it.

But surely some people's ideas of the Arthurian legends come from reading? They may not read Malory or whatever, but surely some must read retellings of the legends as kids. Or do people not read anymore? In most kids' retellings Morgan doesn't come off as anything but a villain.

**samira_86** · 05-13-2011, 01:56 AM

I watched both recently and I still don't particuarly see her as evil

The only "evil" thing she's done on this show was in the finale with the arrows and the villagers. That really was uncalled for haha

sum1 · 05-13-2011, 05:42 AM

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Originally Posted by samira_86 (View Post)

I watched both recently and I still don't particuarly see her as evil

The only "evil" thing she's done on this show was in the finale with the arrows and the villagers. That really was uncalled for haha

Yeah, that was bad writing. Totally didn't make sense with her character. And Katie in her recent interview seems to forgotten about that. You can't really say Morgana being evil is just a point of view when they have her doing that sort of thing.

malaguetta · 05-13-2011, 10:35 AM

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Originally Posted by sum1 (View Post)

It's more theatrical than comic book. I really don't see how it's comic booky. It's not a great movie, but it's one of the better Arthurian movies, simply because the standard is low and Arthurian movies are generally not very good.

It is a comic book movie in an art school or film school sense. Much the same way that the 1968 Planet of the Apes is considered a comic book movie; not that is based on a comic book, rather has a comic book sensibility. Some comic book movies have a very theatrical, verging on operatic, sensibility; V for Vendetta comes to mind. Tim Burton's Batman movies also are quite theatrical. Then again, it may all be in the eye of the beholder.

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I can't say it appeals either to anybody who respects ancient Celtic religion enough to want to see it portrayed accurately. It had its good points (such as Julianna Margulies), but apart from the Celtic religion issue, it also had terribly weak versions of Arthur and Lancelot, something which is actually quite common in Arthurian films. Mists is a well-known work, so I wouldn't say it's just feminists who watch it.

The book is very popular with women and with those of feminist mindset. I draw this conclusion because The Mists of Avalon is a very long book and those groups are just about the only ones who ever finish it. It is also a required text in some university courses.

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But surely some people's ideas of the Arthurian legends come from reading? They may not read Malory or whatever, but surely some must read retellings of the legends as kids. Or do people not read anymore? In most kids' retellings Morgan doesn't come off as anything but a villain.

Most of Merlin's audience probably doesn't have much background with the Arthurian Cycle. Some may have read T. H. White, Mary Stewart, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Stephen Lawhead, or Bernard Cornwell; but most probably haven't. Maybe they read Gawain and the Green Knight in school, but, at least in the U.S., it's something you catch on TV from old movies or cartoons -- or even comic books. Morgan is pretty much always evil in comic books. However, people love her as a villain.

sum1 · 05-13-2011, 03:07 PM

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Originally Posted by malaguetta (View Post)

It is a comic book movie in an art school or film school sense. Much the same way that the 1968 Planet of the Apes is considered a comic book movie; not that is based on a comic book, rather has a comic book sensibility. Some comic book movies have a very theatrical, verging on operatic, sensibility; V for Vendetta comes to mind. Tim Burton's Batman movies also are quite theatrical. Then again, it may all be in the eye of the beholder.

This is a case of people being rather careless with the term "comic book", seeing as their idea of comic books has more to do with stereotyypes of comics than what comic books are actually like. I very much doubt comic books had any influence on Excalibur. And its theatricality probably came from the influence of theatre rather than any influence of comic books. The movies you mentioned are not theatrical in precisely the way Excalibur is.

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The book is very popular with women and with those of feminist mindset. I draw this conclusion because The Mists of Avalon is a very long book and those groups are just about the only ones who ever finish it. It is also a required text in some university courses.

Plenty of women put it down unfinished too. Not everybody wants to read over 800 pages of bullcrap. The movie at least benefits from the talents of Julianna Margulies, but the book has no such respite from its abuse of Celtic culture. The sole justifiable reason for reading the book as part of a university course is to study how Celtic culture and Celtic history is abused, plundered and twisted by English-speaking people who do not understand it. Cultural colonialism.

However, it doesn't take reading 800+ pages to finish the movie, only three hours. Probably a lot more people watch it than read the book.

(Also, 800 pages is not so long by the standards of modern fantasy works. Which are widely read.)

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Most of Merlin's audience probably doesn't have much background with the Arthurian Cycle. Some may have read T. H. White, Mary Stewart, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Stephen Lawhead, or Bernard Cornwell; but most probably haven't.

Surely they're not all illiterate? At least when I was a kid, kids were exposed to books retelling legends and mythology, and Arthurian books were one variety. I was reading about Arthurian legend age six. And already back then I disliked that French Mary Sue, Lancelot.

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Maybe they read Gawain and the Green Knight in school, but, at least in the U.S., it's something you catch on TV from old movies or cartoons -- or even comic books. Morgan is pretty much always evil in comic books. However, people love her as a villain.

Morgan is mostly evil in a lot of legend material as well. The modern writers aren't getting it from nowhere.

malaguetta · 05-13-2011, 05:49 PM

Actually, sum1 -- is there an anti-sum1 somewhere online called noh1? I digress. It might be that some people are more literal minded than others; preferring their worldview to be easily categorized and organized. I did tell that certain movies deemed as having a comic book sensibility is largely the product of film schools and art schools. Please don't be so ready to dismiss it as stereotypical. There are many people who equate "fantasy" with either lame or stupid. As for "science-fiction", that is the realm of sub-humans never leaving their parents' basements. That's not really a fair assessment, is it?

**samira_86** · 05-14-2011, 12:02 AM

do we know if she has naturally curly or straight hair?

malaguetta · 05-14-2011, 02:12 AM

Katie has said she has "Pocahontas" hair unless she uses about eight different styling products. She also said that she wears hair extensions when her hair is done in wavy style. It would seem Katie has naturally straight hair.

sum1 · 05-14-2011, 04:59 AM

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Originally Posted by malaguetta (View Post)

Actually, sum1 -- is there an anti-sum1 somewhere online called noh1? I digress. It might be that some people are more literal minded than others; preferring their worldview to be easily categorized and organized. I did tell that certain movies deemed as having a comic book sensibility is largely the product of film schools and art schools. Please don't be so ready to dismiss it as stereotypical.

Strikes me as a stereotypical view of comics.

Film schools and art schools are prone to bullcrap.

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There are many people who equate "fantasy" with either lame or stupid. As for "science-fiction", that is the realm of sub-humans never leaving their parents' basements. That's not really a fair assessment, is it?

Nope.

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Originally Posted by samira_86 (View Post)

do we know if she has naturally curly or straight hair?

Katie pic! I would bet straight.

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Originally Posted by malaguetta (View Post)

Katie has said she has "Pocahontas" hair unless she uses about eight different styling products.

What does that mean? Very straight?