[sum1]

Better off just sticking to live action.

[PhoenixRising]

I usually do, but these Justice League movies have been pretty good. So was Avatar: The Last Airbender. The cartoon was a lot better than that movie.

[sum1]

That's because the movie was made by M Shight Nyamalan.

[PhoenixRising]

Yeah, but he did good with The Sixth Sense and Unbreakable, and I've heard that Split is good, so I wanna see that before Glass comes out.

[dragonfire]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Oh, okay. Well, I apologize, I wasn't fan of that Justice League cartoon, dragonfire. My problem with it was basically that the show not only went with John Stewart, they pretended that Hal Jordan didn't even exist. Hal appeared only once on that show during a temporal disruption when Hal and John switched places, implying that Hal was from an alternate dimension because his teammates on the Justice League acted like they didn't know who he was. The show's creators probably thought they were tipping their hat to Hal Jordan, but to me they were being disrespectful to the character who made the Green Lantern popular in the first place. No one cared about Alan Scott just like no one cared about Jay Garrick. I mean, you wouldn't want them doing this to Barry Allen, would you? And come to think of it, dragonfire, the Flash you saw on that Justice League show wasn't even Barry, it was Wally West.

It's ok. I considered it the Justice League I grew up with. TBH I think the only character Timm&Co honestly actually cared about was Batman. Of course, back then I was like that as well.

[sum1]

Batman is a wanker. Or maybe a paedophile.

[PhoenixRising]

Uhh, I don't think so, sum1. Selina Kyle, Talia al Ghul, Dinah Lance, Barbara Gordon, Diana Prince, Zatanna Zatara, Natalia Knight, Pamela Isley, the list goes on.

Originally Posted by dragonfire (View Post) It's ok. I considered it the Justice League I grew up with. TBH I think the only character Timm&Co honestly actually cared about was Batman. Of course, back then I was like that as well.

It's okay, dragonfire. I know you're not as much into the comics as we are. And yeah, I got that general impression as well. Timm also had a really weird thing about Bruce and Barbara.

[dragonfire]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Uhh, I don't think so, sum1. Selina Kyle, Talia al Ghul, Dinah Lance, Barbara Gordon, Diana Prince, Zatanna Zatara, Natalia Knight, Pamela Isley, the list goes on. It's okay, dragonfire. I know you're not as much into the comics as we are. And yeah, I got that general impression as well. Timm also had a really weird thing about Bruce and Barbara.

Vicki Vale, Lois Lane, Harley Quinn, Kara? Silver St. Cloud, Chase from Forever, Andrea/Phantasm, and of course your personal favorite the one and only Rachel Dawes. The Justice League cartoon was more like a Batman and Friends cartoon show, than a Justice League cartoon show. Oh, remember Terry Mcginnis being revealed as Batman's genetic Son created by Amanda Waller? Well, it seems Timm confirmed Terry's little Brother Matt is also Batman's genetic Son.

[sum1]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Uhh, I don't think so, sum1. Selina Kyle, Talia al Ghul, Dinah Lance, Barbara Gordon, Diana Prince, Zatanna Zatara, Natalia Knight, Pamela Isley, the list goes on.

Doesn't erase Batman hanging out with a kid in suspicious circumstances.

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homose...ile:Batbed.png


But Alex, I suspect this topic is not to your taste, so I won't continue discussing it.

[PhoenixRising]

Originally Posted by sum1 (View Post) Doesn't erase Batman hanging out with a kid in suspicious circumstances. But Alex, I suspect this topic is not to your taste, so I won't continue discussing it.

It's okay, sum1. No need to get nervous. I already knew about this a long time ago. As an ardent comic book fan, I'm well aware of Fredric Wertham's 1954 book, 'Seduction of the Innocent.' His book has since been criticized and debunked by a number of scholars who said Wertham "manipulated, overstated, compromised, and fabricated evidence," mis-projected both the sample size and substance of his research, making it out to be more objective and less anecdotal than it truly was, and "generally did not adhere to standards worthy of scientific research, instead using questionable evidence for his argument that comics were a cultural failure." He also used New York City adolescents from troubled backgrounds who had previous evidence of behavioral disorders and psychiatric disorders which required hospitalization. Many statements were altered, combined, or taken out of context. His descriptions of comic book content were also misleading, mostly coming from someone who knew nothing about comic books.

Wertham took shots at a lot of comic book superheroes. In addition to claiming that Batman & Robin had homoerotic subtext, he also claimed that William Marston's Wonder Woman contained sexual bondage(which Marston later admitted to) and lesbian subtext, and that Superman was un-American and fascistic due to the comparisons to Nietzsche's "Übermensch"(which has been forever misunderstood) and Nazi/Aryan imagery. So basically this guy had a big stick up his It was because of Wertham's book that a US congressional inquiry led to the creation of the Comics Code, which was self-enforced until Stan Lee and Marvel told them to go themselves and the code was abolished.

Crime and horror comics like EC comics' Tales From The Crypt and The Vault of Horror got hit hardest, with many going out of business. I'm just glad that those types of comics made a comeback in the 80's and 90's. As for the whole Batman/Robin thing, that was mostly the creation of Bob Kane. Kane felt that Batman needed a sidekick that he could explain things to, like The Lone Ranger and Tonto or Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson, which would simultaneously explain the story to the audience. But Batman writer and co-creator Bill Finger objected to the idea of a sidekick, feeling that Batman should remain a solitary character like Zorro or Philip Marlowe. He also felt that Bruce Wayne already had someone to explain things to in Alfred Pennyworth. Obviously, Bob Kane won out, mostly because sidekicks were all the rage back then. Captain America had Bucky, The Human Torch had Toro, The Flash had Kid Flash, Wonder Woman had Wonder Girl, and Captain Marvel(Shazam) had two sidekicks, Captain Marvel Jr. and Mary Marvel. The idea was that the sidekick was a kind of wish fulfillment for the readers, acting as an avatar for teenage comic book fans who dreamed of fighting alongside their favorite heroes. But it also displayed the publishers' unbelievable naivety at not realizing how this could be interpreted as homoerotic subtext. That's why the sidekicks eventually were done away with. Robin grew up and became Nightwing, Barry Allen died in the Crisis on Infinite Earths and was replaced by Wally West as the new Flash, Bucky was killed off and later came back as The Winter Soldier, Jason Todd was killed off, etc.

Originally Posted by dragonfire (View Post) Vicki Vale, Lois Lane, Harley Quinn, Kara? Silver St. Cloud, Chase from Forever, Andrea/Phantasm, and of course your personal favorite the one and only Rachel Dawes. The Justice League cartoon was more like a Batman and Friends cartoon show, than a Justice League cartoon show. Oh, remember Terry Mcginnis being revealed as Batman's genetic Son created by Amanda Waller? Well, it seems Timm confirmed Terry's little Brother Matt is also Batman's genetic Son.

Ugh, don't mention Vicki Vale, dragonfire. She was a poor woman's Lois Lane, same as Iris West. And don't mention Rachel Dawes as well. There actually was a Rachel Caspian from Batman: Year Two, but that comic has since been retconned. Andrea/Phantasm was interesting, but she seemed like a ripoff of The Grim Reaper from Batman: Year Two.

OMG, Batman has another son? What happened to Damian? No, I don't remember that happening. Is that in the comics or the cartoons? And you're right, Timm really did make that a Batman & Friends show.

[dragonfire]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Ugh, don't mention Vicki Vale, dragonfire. She was a poor woman's Lois Lane, same as Iris West. OMG, Batman has another son? What happened to Damian? No, I don't remember that happening. Is that in the comics or the cartoons? And you're right, Timm really did make that a Batman & Friends show.

Not to Batman&Joker. Shoot they were more focus on her than Gotham itself. Plus Alfred hardcore shipped Bruce&Vicki. Yes, and it does explain why Terry&Matt from Batman Beyond looked more like dark hair/blue eye Bruce than their parents. I think they retcon that and now Damian is Slade's Son. The JLU show, also it seems originally the episode was intended to be the series finale for the Justice League cartoon show, and it was the epilogue for Batman animated series and Batman Beyond.

During the Justice League's both hostile and friendly encounters, Amanda Waller developed a great admiration for Batman and came to believe that someone like the Dark Knight would always be needed. While watching Batman age, Waller realized he wouldn't be around forever and the Dark Knight would have to retire or someone would finally kill him. Drawing on her old Cadmus contacts, Waller devised a scheme to give Batman a genetic "son" who would likewise be compelled to take up a life as his successor. After obtaining a sample of Batman's DNA, a young couple was later found that were almost identical psychological matches to Batman's father and mother: Warren and Mary McGinnis. During an apparent routine flu inoculation, Warren was administered a nanotech solution that over-wrote his reproductive DNA with Batman's. A year later, Terry McGinnis was born as a genetic son of Mary and Batman. Knowing that genetics were not the only factor in creating Batman, Waller later hired an assassin to murder Terry's parents at the same age and under very similar circumstances as his predecessor to try to recreate these conditions. The hired assassin, former romance Andrea Beaumont, recognized what the murders had done to Bruce and realized that she would be dishonoring everything he stood for, refused to subject another child to the same horrors. When Waller realized she had crossed a line, the project was scrapped.

https://dcau.wikia.com/wiki/Batman_(Terry_McGinnis)

[sum1]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) It's okay, sum1. No need to get nervous. I already knew about this a long time ago. As an ardent comic book fan, I'm well aware of Fredric Wertham's 1954 book, 'Seduction of the Innocent.' His book has since been criticized and debunked by a number of scholars who said Wertham "manipulated, overstated, compromised, and fabricated evidence," mis-projected both the sample size and substance of his research, making it out to be more objective and less anecdotal than it truly was, and "generally did not adhere to standards worthy of scientific research, instead using questionable evidence for his argument that comics were a cultural failure." He also used New York City adolescents from troubled backgrounds who had previous evidence of behavioral disorders and psychiatric disorders which required hospitalization. Many statements were altered, combined, or taken out of context. His descriptions of comic book content were also misleading, mostly coming from someone who knew nothing about comic books. Wertham took shots at a lot of comic book superheroes. In addition to claiming that Batman & Robin had homoerotic subtext, he also claimed that William Marston's Wonder Woman contained sexual bondage(which Marston later admitted to) and lesbian subtext, and that Superman was un-American and fascistic due to the comparisons to Nietzsche's "Übermensch"(which has been forever misunderstood) and Nazi/Aryan imagery. So basically this guy had a big stick up his It was because of Wertham's book that a US congressional inquiry led to the creation of the Comics Code, which was self-enforced until Stan Lee and Marvel told them to go themselves and the code was abolished. Crime and horror comics like EC comics' Tales From The Crypt and The Vault of Horror got hit hardest, with many going out of business. I'm just glad that those types of comics made a comeback in the 80's and 90's. As for the whole Batman/Robin thing, that was mostly the creation of Bob Kane. Kane felt that Batman needed a sidekick that he could explain things to, like The Lone Ranger and Tonto or Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson, which would simultaneously explain the story to the audience. But Batman writer and co-creator Bill Finger objected to the idea of a sidekick, feeling that Batman should remain a solitary character like Zorro or Philip Marlowe. He also felt that Bruce Wayne already had someone to explain things to in Alfred Pennyworth. Obviously, Bob Kane won out, mostly because sidekicks were all the rage back then. Captain America had Bucky, The Human Torch had Toro, The Flash had Kid Flash, Wonder Woman had Wonder Girl, and Captain Marvel(Shazam) had two sidekicks, Captain Marvel Jr. and Mary Marvel. The idea was that the sidekick was a kind of wish fulfillment for the readers, acting as an avatar for teenage comic book fans who dreamed of fighting alongside their favorite heroes. But it also displayed the publishers' unbelievable naivety at not realizing how this could be interpreted as homoerotic subtext. That's why the sidekicks eventually were done away with. Robin grew up and became Nightwing, Barry Allen died in the Crisis on Infinite Earths and was replaced by Wally West as the new Flash, Bucky was killed off and later came back as The Winter Soldier, Jason Todd was killed off, etc.

Yeah, I know all that. But Batman coming off like a paedophile is a lot more than just Wertham's views and I still think it's a valid view. And for the record I think Captain America and the Golden Age Human Torch are suspiciously paedophile too. Just look at the Torch's boy partner Toro's costume -boots and bathing togs and nothing else. And Captain America is a soldier who shares a tent with a young boy in tights.

Please understand, I'm not trying to give you trouble about characters you like. I'm just saying how it looks to me.

he also claimed that William Marston's Wonder Woman contained sexual bondage(which Marston later admitted to) and lesbian subtext

The lesbian subtext was there too and has recently been made canonical. Wonder Woman is bi in both the modern comics and the films. In the Wonder Woman film, Wonder Woman describes her people's view on sex as being that men are necessary for reproduction, but not for pleasure. And it's pretty clear she wasn't alluding to masturbation. Island full of women, no men, etc. And in the recent incarnation of Wonder Woman in DC comics they've spelled out that she's bisexual. And the lesbian subtext has been there from the beginning. It goes back back to William Marston's longterm threesome with his wife and Olive Byrne.

It was because of Wertham's book that a US congressional inquiry led to the creation of the Comics Code, which was self-enforced until Stan Lee and Marvel told them to go themselves and the code was abolished.

Yeah, I think the code was knocked out around 1990.

[PhoenixRising]

Ugh! I can't stand Batman Beyond, sum1. I have never considered that canonical, just Bruce Timm's fantasy. He may have been the creator of Batman: The Animated Series, but he doesn't own DC.

OMG, they retconned Damian so he's Deathstroke's son? That means that Slade and Talia... ? Eeeewwwwww!

dragonfire, Vicki Vale was considered a failure by DC comics. Why else do you think that Selina Kyle was made Bruce's main love interest? No one would've even heard of Vicki if it hadn't been for that Tim Burton movie. She was nothing but a Lois Lane ripoff.

Originally Posted by sum1 (View Post) Yeah, I think the code was knocked out around 1990.

1990? I thought it was earlier.

Again, don't worry, sum1. You're not giving me any trouble. I'm well aware of all of that. Yes, I do know that William "lucky bastard" Marston lived in a polyamorous threesome with his wife, Elizabeth, and their female lover, Olive. So he probably did have a lot of sexual subtext in the character, but Wonder Woman being bisexual didn't get worked into the canon until after the Rebirth continuity, which was really just a return to post-Crisis on Infinite Earths continuity. I don't think it was part of New 52. The Amazons didn't feel that men were necessary for sexual pleasure, but that didn't stop Diana from indulging with Steve Trevor. Or Bruce Wayne. Don't get me started on her and Clark, because I've never agreed with that. They're too different as people. And Catwoman, Poison Ivy, and Harley Quinn have also all come out as bisexual, although I question whether this is for representation, or just because comic artists know that horny young comic book fans all wish they could be like William Marston.

And as for the sidekick thing, well... I was one of those guys who called in the 1-900 number to vote to kill off Jason Todd back in 1988. Like I said, that whole "sidekick-as-avatar-for-the-reader" thing might've seemed like a good idea to those early writers back in the 40's when comics created characters like Robin, Bucky, Toro, and Kid Flash, but I think over time DC and Marvel realized just how naïve those early writers and publishers were for creating those characters because of the homoerotic subtext. Like I said, Bill Finger was opposed to creating Robin, and he's the guy who actually wrote Batman. Bob Kane just drew him, yet he suggested creating Robin, which I guess is now seen as silly in hindsight.

[dragonfire]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Ugh! I can't stand Batman Beyond, sum1. I have never considered that canonical, just Bruce Timm's fantasy. He may have been the creator of Batman: The Animated Series, but he doesn't own DC. OMG, they retconned Damian so he's Deathstroke's son? That means that Slade and Talia... ? Eeeewwwwww! dragonfire, Vicki Vale was considered a failure by DC comics. Why else do you think that Selina Kyle was made Bruce's main love interest? No one would've even heard of Vicki if it hadn't been for that Tim Burton movie. She was nothing but a Lois Lane ripoff.

I'm not Sum. I loved Batman Beyond. The only part I didn't like was the Bruce&Barbara romance. Oh, speaking of Barbara. It seems in the DC Rebirth comics, she may have hooked back up with a certain boy wonder. It seems so, and it also seems the retcon happen when Batcat was engaged. Of course at the wedding Selina called it off. Ok, but honestly I mostly remember her as the screamer.

[PhoenixRising]

Originally Posted by dragonfire (View Post) I'm not Sum. I loved Batman Beyond. The only part I didn't like was the Bruce&Barbara romance. Oh, speaking of Barbara. It seems in the DC Rebirth comics, she may have hooked back up with a certain boy wonder. It seems so, and it also seems the retcon happen when Batcat was engaged. Of course at the wedding Selina called it off. Ok, but honestly I mostly remember her as the screamer.

Dammit! I did that again! Sorry, dragonfire. It's not easy modding three boards and posting on three others.

I actually didn't mind the Bruce/Barbara thing because I always thought it made sense. I just didn't like how they handled it in The Killing Joke. I thought that could've been handled better. That's not how Bruce and Barbara's first time would've been like.

Well of course Rebirth did that. They're picking up right where post-Crisis left off, as if New 52 never happened, thank god. That and Marvel's Ultimate Universe was just awful.

Who, Vicki? I just remember her as the character no one would've remembered if not for Kim Basinger.