Jay

i didn't mean to put the "friggin" word in there..it's just that everyone is paying more attention to him and obsessing over him at the same time...i just don't get it. plus, i was upset when i wrote that...so know this, that it wasn't intentional and i'm not a clay fan and never will be. his voice is too broadway. from the sounds of it, it looks like justin needs our help big time and like clay, he was the runner up..so why isn't he having the same kind of media attention/success that clay is having. it really bothers me. though ruben won(i like him), it looks like clay has more fans than him...so why didn't he win. that's what strange about this whole thing.

and i didn't say that it was ruben's or clay's fault in justin's poor start. i never mentioned that directly or indirectly. i respect all kinds of fans. i'm just blaming it on the record company itself. don't forget, both justin and kelly worked as hard as clay and ruben to get to where they are right now. personally, clay and ruben are cool. business wise, they are a repilica of jelly...they wanna do whatever jelly is doin'..like a movie for instance. come on...copycats. i mean is clay is so successful because he has alot of fans, why he wants to make a movie when he's doin' well in music and secondly, willing to do with Ruben. the whole thing just sucks.

BTW, Clay being on the cover of Rolling Stones..that's a joke and slap a face in the reputation of that magazine. b4, to be on that cover, u had to earned it(and it was hard to be on it). the one thing that really pisses me off the most, is that Kelly CLarkson was never on the cover even when things going hot for her. Her album went platinum, her current single is #1, her previous single(AMLT) did pretty well, winner of American Idol, J2K(the movie)-->and yet not all those things were enough for her to be on the cover. And all of sudden, they put CLay on the cover for what...what the heck did he earn to be on the cover. what, that song "Bridge over Troubled Waters" is what did it for him..oh please, give me a break. yea..he has alot of fans. Big deal. What about Ruben? he's the winner of AI2 and yet, he's not even on the cover. all i know is that Rolling Stones is ****ed up and the music industry as well. it's no wonder that musicians/groups have their own labels.

[ 07-02-2003: Message edited Jay_10 ]

[ 07-02-2003: Message edited Jay_10 ]

YouPervo

Jay- you're friggin' awesome! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] I wouldn't have the guts to say things you say [img]smilies/lol.gif[/img] But I do believe that Justin is getting jipped. But I'm still confused on why. I mean, yah the record company has done just about nothing to support him. I've only seen him on Jay Leno and American Juniors. And that's about it. And when he was on Jay Leno, I bet not many people watched cuz it was on so late, and not many people even watch American Juniors. It's all crap. And it's a sucky position to put all the fans in cuz now we have to work our butts of to support him and get him out there. *sigh*

I think that we have enough American Idols now. I don't think we need anymore. I honestly though American Idol 1 was good enough.. but ya know. Whatever. [img]smilies/look.gif[/img]

~Orli'sQueen~

Jay-You're the man!! I totally agree that Justin is getting screwed! RCA has defiantely not advertised his album as much as they should be. I think RCA got themselves too many singers in a short time (they should've stop w/just Justin and Kelly). Just as legolicious said, I think that AI1 was enough. AI2 ,to me, was boring (even though I am glad that Ruben won). It seemed like the talent wasn't as good as Justin or Kelly. I think that Clay would be a very good Broadway star, but that's about it. I can't see him as a pop/rock artist. Yeah Clay has talent but not as much as Justin/Kelly. Justin has everything: the looks, the voice, the personality, the moves. RCA better wake up and start helping out Justin more than they are.

But once again this is my opinion, so I don't mean to offend anyone. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

~Orli'sQueen~

What is that?! 180 days in jail. C'mon, we all know the nice people that Justin/Kelly are and they defiantely wouldn't walk away laughing. Is this from a tabloid?

Jude

Jay, I'm going to try to respond to some of the points in your post from my position as a Clay fan. Since I've also been a pretty strong Justin fan as well, I have to admit I'm not sure where all the "you're the man" responses to your post are coming from. Because Jay told off the mod of this board, that's what makes him "the man"? Thanks a lot, guys. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

It's all a matter of what you prefer. Clay's voice has touched a LOT of people, obviously. Almost from the beginning of the competition, there has been a groundswell of support for him. Maybe the fact that he started as an underdog, being seen as a geek and all, has endeared him to a lot of people...it's a kind of Cinderfella story, as someone put it. There's the whole contradiction of him looking the way he did, and then coming out with that VOICE. Then he slowly worked on improving himself...took criticism from Simon -- really unkind things at times -- and worked on whatever he could. He didn't talk back, and he didn't whine about it, even when Simon's comments were unfair. And he just got better and better -- not just his voice, but his looks and his style. He kept on bringing it even when it was obvious that the judges and the media were pushing Ruben, and even when it seemed as though the powers that be were purposely trying to wreck his chances. (The "Vincent" debacle, for example.)

Second, his voice is unique. Hearing it, you know it's unmistakably Clay. That's one of the signs of a superstar, when the voice is that good, and it's recognizable. Ruben's is good, too, but I personally think he sounds like a lot of other people. And sometimes, he didn't sound all that good at all, as, for example, on nights when he was flat or gravelly. Not that the judges ever pointed that out, though.

Third, Clay's concerned about things other than the trappings of celebrity and wealth. He's a special education major, a devout Christian, and from all accounts, a really decent, smart, funny, good guy. He loves his mom and has lots of friends. LOTS of friends, which to me, is always a good sign.

People like Clay. They just do. You don't, but ultimately, though I've tried to explain why *I* happen to like him, I'm not going to change your mind, any more than you'll change mine. It's like, you might like spaghetti, and I don't. I can tell you why I don't, but that doesn't really make any difference in your feelings, does it? Nor should it. It's just a matter of opinion and/or taste, that's all.

And what exactly do you mean by that? What does "too Broadway" mean? I keep asking that of ALL the many, MANY people who have made this comment, and very few have an answer. You say Broadway as though it's a bad thing. Does that mean you'd never want to see any Broadway shows because you wouldn't like the way people sing in them...assuming everyone sings the same way on Broadway, right?

I'm sorry to rant on you, but I'm just REALLY, REALLY sick of that particular phrase: "too Broadway." It makes absolutely no sense to me.

</STRONG>

It might have to do with the fact that more people seem to prefer Clay's voice to Justin's. I know that sounds harsh, but that's the feeling I get from other boards. Plus, while Clay comes off as humble, people seem to think Justin's conceited. Note that *I* didn't say that...I like Justin and always have. I've seen him on local television (since I live about an hour from Doylestown), and he's always nice and a good guy.

The other thing that may have had something to do with the difference is that the victory Kelly had last year was much more decisive than the one Ruben had this year. For all intents and purposes, it was a statistical tie between Ruben and Clay. TPTB recognized that, and said the competition between the two would continue on the charts. And we all know so far who won *that* one. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

</STRONG>

First of all, the voting system was horribly flawed. People (myself included) attempted to vote for Clay for three hours and couldn't get through more than a handful of times, if at all. That was also true for Ruben, from what I've heard.

So, here's the analogy. Say you have thousands of trucks filled with merchandise, to be delivered to two warehouses. Once the warehouses are filled to capacity, there are all these trucks sitting out back with items in them that can no longer fit into the warehouses. The warehouses are equally filled -- one might have a bit more shoved in, but the trucks outside are what tell the rest of the story. Suppose one warehouse has twenty trucks that couldn't get anymore into the warehouse, while the other has ten. Unless you're standing outside looking at the trucks, you have no idea which warehouse was destined to get more items. Because they can't fit anymore in.

And that's the same as the phone system on AI2 Finale night. From all reports, more than 200 million calls were attempted, but only 24 million got through. How many of those 176 million were for Ruben and how many for Clay? We'll never know, will we?

In other words, NO ONE can say who *really* won this thing. It's impossible. I tend to think it was Clay, simply because on this board alone, we had 20 threads for Clay by that time and only one for Ruben. It was the same on all of the other AI sites, I promise you.

<STRONG> </STRONG>

You're right, you didn't mention that it was Clay's or Ruben's fault. I think it was the "friggin Clay" thing that made me think that. Sorry if that wasn't what you intended.

</STRONG>

You can blame that on the executives at Fox and 19e for sending them across the country promoting them as a pair. I'm not really seeing them as a replica of Jelly, though. I mean, they're the AI winner and the runner-up. Just as Kelly and Justin were. Just as the winner and runner-up of AI3 will be. "Copycats" doesn't apply here at all, and I think you're being a bit unfair using that word.

<STRONG> Clay and Ruben seem to be great friends. They support each other and have fun together. I'm guessing they want a movie because they think it would be fun to work together (especially since they loved doing the skits on AI2), and because they're both green when it comes to show business. Clay auditioned on a lark...so I think the idea of doing a movie is just attractive to him because frankly, he doesn't know any better. I'm hoping that the hard time people have given FJ2K might have changed his mind, because as much as I like watching Clay perform, I don't think this movie idea is in his best interests. Or Ruben's, either, for that matter.

</STRONG>

I think it was a smart business decision on the part of Rolling Stone. VERY smart. They know the Clay fans will buy anything with Clay on it or in it. They know he's got a rabid fanbase and planned the cover before the competition had even ended. The bottom line for any magazine is revenue. You can only be snooty about your content for so long before you have to realize that unless your revenue is adequate, you won't have a magazine at all, especially these days.

And please...Rolling Stone's reputation? Putting people like Britney Spears and Ashton Kutcher on the cover was every bit as much of a sell-out as putting Clay on there.

<STRONG> </STRONG>

One has nothing to do with the other. Rolling Stone chose to cover Clay for their own reasons...and they don't owe anyone anything. Again, I tend to think it was a financial decision, and given the way the issue is selling out in a lot of places, according to reports, I'd say they made the right choice.

</STRONG>

Again, Rolling Stone has no connection with AI. It can choose to cover whomever it wants to. Ruben's winning doesn't guarantee him anything, especially with the vote so close and such a controversial one. Rolling Stone says the reason they covered Clay instead of Ruben is that they thought Clay might be more willing to talk, whereas Ruben never had a whole lot to say. And they found that to be true. And yes, Clay has LOTS of fans...fans who bought Rolling Stone the minute it hit the stands. I doubt that would have happened if Ruben had been on the cover. It's business, pure and simple. And to think that RS would ignore something like that is a bit naive.

Besides, Kelly has received plenty of covers of magazines since she won. Ruben, I'm sure, will get covers as well. It's only been a month, after all.

You certainly seem to have a lot of bitterness stored up. I'm sorry your guy isn't doing as well as you think he should. As I've already said, I like Justin myself, so I'm sad he isn't doing well, too. Yes, the music industry is f'd up, but not because of Clay. As a Clay fan, I've seen the work the fans have had to do to get him ANY radio play at all. It's been an uphill struggle all along, and it continues. A lot of stations point-blank refuse to play Clay's record, just as they won't play Justin's, despite the fans calling and emailing and requesting all day. Believe me, I visit lots of other sites and I see the frustration of fans when radio stations, most of them owned by Clear Channel, won't pay any attention to the listeners' requests.

Anyway, I've gone on long enough, if ANYONE is still reading. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] The bottom line is, Ruben and Clay are the big news because they just won. Kelly's big news because her album has gone platinum and she's got a hit single. Justin's been screwed over by RCA and AI. But one doesn't have anything to do with the other, and it makes me sad to see fans of Justin's so bitter about Clay. If you want Justin to do better, take a page from the Clay fans and WORK for it. That seems to be the only thing we as fans can do.

That and not fight each other. I'm really sorry for the length of this post, everyone. But as a fan of both guys, this REALLY bothered me, especially seeing everyone cheer as though I've said something wrong, when really...I'm just defending my guy, just as I'd expect you all to defend yours.

[ 07-02-2003: Message edited Jude ]

AlyssaLuvsClay

Justin seems like a cool guy, and I completely agree with everybody who said that he was screwed over. They didn't promote him nearly enough, and some people who were fans of his are now going, "Justin who?" I think he's a great singer, but a lot of you are making it seem like Clay is the reason why Justin isn't doing so well! Sorry if you don't mean to sound that way, but that's the way I'm interpreting it. And Clay has absolutely nothing to do with the success of Justin. There's room enough for both of them in the music business.

Oh, and awesome post, Jude! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Beautiful Disaster

All right y'all, I think everyone's said their peace (your response was very well done Jude [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]), so let's just get back to the Justin lovin'. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Here's a 'lil sumthin sumthin to start us off



::growl:: [img]smilies/eyebrows.gif[/img]

[ 07-02-2003: Message edited Beautiful Disaster ]

Beautiful Disaster

[ 07-02-2003: Message edited Beautiful Disaster ]

NocheDelDestino1

I don't know why, but this is exactly what I thought when I saw this pic...


Justin: Pick the wedgie! Pick the wedgie!

[img]smilies/angel.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/angel.gif[/img]

~Orli'sQueen~

Jude- I certainly did not mean he was "the man" because he told u off. The whole "the man" thing came from him saying that Justin is getting screwed (and only that).

I mean no disrespect to Clay at ALL. He is very talented and has many fans. He seems like a really nice guy, it touched me when they showed the clips on AI2 of him helping those kids. Clay has wonderful talent. My mom absolutely loves him. I think he has a great voice, and has improved throughout the competition. Clay has many fans and I don't think we need to worry about him having success. This just goes to show that it doesn't matter who wins AI, they both have the same success. For the most part I apologize for anything I have said that may have be offensive to any Clay fans. I was just very upset about how Justin is doing. I will probably end up going out to buy Clay's CD anyways. Once again I am sorry.

~Orli'sQueen~

This is my fav pic!!

Jude

I understand how you feel, and I'm sorry I misunderstood you. I just get a little defensive (as you may have noticed! [img]smilies/blush.gif[/img] ) when I think someone's being unfairly treated. For what it's worth, I feel that way about Justin as well. NO ONE has been as poorly treated as he has in all this, and he doesn't deserve it.

Anyway...lovely pics! Thanks, Beautiful Disaster, for steering us back on course! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Jay

Jude: I admire the fact that u backed up in eveything u've said. believe me, i have nothing against you. Despite we don't agree on some levels(mainly on Clay)..at least, we are a fan of Justin. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I just hate to see an artist or even anybody being screwed over. believe me, i've been screwed once b4 and it's not a great feeling to carry. Poor Justin. He's one hell of a talented performer. I just hope he'll be given another chance to prove himself once more. All i know is that Justin is screwed over and there's not a damn thing he could do about it. He has no control whatsoever. He's been performing "sorry" and making appearances on many tv news/talk host/music shows to promote his album and he's doing the best he can. If there are two reasons to blame on Justin's poor start, it would be RCA and secondly, clouded by the whole American Idol 2 phenomenon.

BTW Jude, i never intended to try be the "man". if jelly or justin fans see me as that way("the man")..so be it. i'm cool with that. in fact, i'm flattered by that.i was just expressing myself thought-wise. the bottom line is that it all comes down to one's opinion. that's what i was doin'. nothing more, nothing less.

ok..Justin fans...sorry for my blah, blah, blah and let's keep ranting and posting pics of J man. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

i hope that Justin and Kelly become something more...i mean for real.

[ 07-02-2003: Message edited Jay_10 ]

[ 07-02-2003: Message edited Jay_10 ]

[ 07-02-2003: Message edited Jay_10 ]

Jude

Absolutely. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I'm glad we can have a civil discussion in which we respect each other's opinions. You may never agree with me, but at least you've listened to my thoughts, and I thank you for it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

By the way, when you edit your posts, you can edit out your previous Edit line...that way you don't have a whole series of edit lines. Just a helpful FF hint! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

YouPervo

Ah, so glad we are all friends again! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

OMG.. those are freaking awesome pics! [img]smilies/drool.gif[/img] Where have I been, I have never seen some of those before!!