Roswell 10/2/00

Yes everything about Blind Date was awesome!

Happy Valentine's Day everyone!

azure angel

Can you imagine Max and Liz on this day?

Amaranto

^ It should be very romantic.

guys!

azure angel

So great they made into the list

Roswell 10/2/00

No one did it like the Dreamers.

I am sorry but Max and Liz should of been #1 on the list not #9! To this day I still get chills and I will never see chemestry that good ever again.

They blow Elena and Stefan out of the water! (Nothing against the couple but how they got to #1 is beyond me)

I loved #2 Pacey and Joey from Dawson City they mean Dawson's Creek!

azure angel

I dont care if they are on #9 the simple fact of being there already says a lot of them

Amaranto

I'm very proud of be a dreamer!

I think we should use that quote for future titles.

azure angel

great idea

podmom

I'm proud to be a dreamer too

Damocles

They should totally be higher...but glad they're on there, regardless!

rbrtck

The obstacles, although some were of a ridiculous nature that should have had better substitutes, were important for a variety of reasons, and although they often made the path of Max & Liz's relationship painful to watch, what they gave us in the end is far more tested, proven devotion and love between characters who have grown and matured. Max & Liz were awfully cute to watch during season 1, and their love itself was real, but of course there is more to a relationship than even love, and both of them would be tested (sometimes in rather unrealistic, science-fictional ways).

Liz passed the first big test when she believed in Max enough after he apparently kissed Tess to investigate her. And while it could be argued that Liz faltered when she ran away from Max after his supposed "destiny" was revealed, despite his clear desire and intention to stand by her in spite of it, I think that most of us understand that he just went with his feelings at the time, while she looked at the big picture and rightfully questioned whether he could really overcome this obstacle. It wasn't for Liz to fight for Max against his "destiny"--that was something he would have to fight in the end--and I doubt that many questioned Liz wanting Max, as hurt as she was by this development. Then, unfortunately, the producers decided that Max would be forced to fail by having Liz be forced to push him away, due to Future Max, which was perhaps the dumbest idea they ever had. They just had to do the stereotypical couple-switching thing, and because Max & Liz were just too perfect for each other, they had to go and force it like this.

Nevertheless, the show still succeeded in developing these characters and their relationship. Where Max actually, really faltered was when Alex died, and he chose to be coddled by Tess, who always took his side and frankly kissed his ass , rather than be challenged by Liz, who although was reacting angrily to Alex's death, was still looking out for the good of all, including Max, with her investigation (if this were an alien-related murder, then they needed to know, and in hindsight she was exactly right). Liz had always previously made Max stronger by challenging him, but he needed to have faith in her, and that was badly shaken by having seen her in bed with Kyle (which was of course a trick resulting from the Future Max stupidity), despite what he said in A Roswell Christmas Carol. There is still no real excuse for behaving as he did, however, and also for treating Isabel as he did. Several of Max's weaknesses were revealed here and in his subsequent actions, choosing to leave his real life and love behind for some echo of a past life lived by someone else (Max was a partial clone of Zan with some of his implanted memories, but he was also human and was not Zan himself--his "destiny" was BS from the start), and while this greatly disappointed Liz at the time, it forced her to face reality (people aren't perfect, and Max just got knocked off his pedestal) and eventually to grow from this. If she would love Max, she had to know him, warts and all, while his job would be to prove that he had learned from his mistakes and would always be devoted to her. This was all resolved in the Ch-Ch-Changes/Panacea/Chant Down Babylon arc, along with the events preceding it.

Somehow, in some way (and it could have been a better way, ahem), all of these issues had to be addressed--Max & Liz both needed to learn and grow. It was never a question of wanting (desire), as they had always wanted each other (although you're right that the obstacles proved this and let it shine), or even of love (selfless caring for the other's well-being), since they had always loved each other, but whether they made each other's life better by being together. Although his love for Liz had brought him much heartache and endangered all of their lives, Max stated emphatically after leaving Tess and returning to Liz that loving her (Liz) and bringing her into his life was, amid all of the mistakes he had made, the one thing he got right--he went right back to the beginning, and despite Liz's regrets for ruining his life, Max stated in no uncertain terms that she made his life better. And actually, I tend to agree--I think that eventually the pod squad's history and "destiny" and the government would have caught up with them regardless, and that Liz made Max a better, stronger person (and when they were really together without obstacles, of course she made him very happy). Besides, without him she would have been dead from a gunshot wound, and without her Max and Isabel (certainly Max) would likely have ended up dead at the hands of Kivar, so there is that aspect, too. But does Max make Liz's life better? She wants to believe this, which was one reason her righteous anger melted and she comforted him when he said that he had ruined her life in Control, but is it true? That's why she had to experience both being away from him in season 3 (a relief in many ways), and actually losing him through death (twice, in fact). In the end, Liz knew that, her unquestioned love for him aside and taking the bad with the good, she would much rather be with Max than without him. Having grown in maturity and understanding (in the shorthand way that is TV ), Max & Liz were ready to fully commit and would henceforth make each other very happy.

By the way, one thing that I particularly like about his touching and honest proposal was that he called Liz "real"--that's what she always was to him (as was his life on Earth), and although he tried to escape what was real at one point (being, in part, confused about what was real), he had fully come around to recognizing what was real and embracing that forever. Liz was always his true love anyway--Tess/Ava from Zan's alien life on Antar was just a "dream" and ironically Max never really loved this dream. Max's "dream girl," so to speak, was always Liz, but she is no dream--for him, she's as real as it gets. Fortunately the producers (meaning mainly Jason Katims, of course) decided to allow Liz to be with Max in the end instead of forcing them apart with another contrivance. Ultimately Max & Liz was so powerful that even they had to bow down to this ship and honor it.

rbrtck

I see that, but it seems to me that at the time he was only worried about what she was doing rather than what she was not doing. If Liz wasn't going to Sweden after all, then he was glad for that and didn't care why. Max just wanted her to stop investigating because he didn't want what he feared might be true to be proven true. In part, this was also an attempt to control her, since he seemed to be losing control over everyone and everything, and this was one of his known issues.

If Max still really had faith in Liz, then that would be different, but his faith was badly shaken by her apparent behavior toward him, and apparently sleeping with Kyle, all of which was the result of the stupid Future Max idea. Future Max had complete faith in Liz, but not in himself, and this was reflected in Liz's actions, which eventually impacted Max in the present day. There was obviously a (contrived, forced) rift between Max & Liz, and without her, in my view he is a weaker person who didn't want to face reality (and, I have to keep reminding myself, he was still just a kid who felt such a massive weight of responsibility on his shoulders).


I guess they took "Love means never having to say you're sorry" a bit too literally (whatever it's supposed to mean--still beats me ). I thought the same thing as you at the time, but I don't know, perhaps it was implicit in Max so frankly admitting that he was wrong. I mean, how often do people do that? He certainly seemed apologetic even if he didn't say the words, and I think that for the first time in a while their hearts understood each other without having to actually say everything.

As for solving the mystery, their goal at this stage was to kill "Leanna," who in their haste was assumed to be an alien and Alex's murderer. Thankfully Liz realized that they were wrong just in time, and stopped Max from accidentally murdering an innocent girl who had been deliberately framed by Alex's real murderer. Liz would figure out that Tess had murdered Alex, but only after she and Max had returned to Roswell and said their regretful goodbyes. Max never helped Liz solve the mystery--he only tried to keep the humans safe from Alex's murderer, whoever that might be (thought to be "Leanna" at first but ultimately it was Tess).


Well, Max was, at least on the surface, anti-Liz for a while there, but personally I thought the episodes made Liz look awesome--smart, independent, and strong in the face of such pain and personal loss (of Alex as well as Max). The last time I binge-watched the whole series was in a few marathon sessions with my sister, for old times' sake, and while she kept saying that Liz was on the verge of losing self-control and alienating (if you will) everyone (and yeah, there might have been some truth to this), I kept saying "Go Liz!"

Back in the day, I recall being more worried about her reaction to Alex's death, emotionally, but I still felt the same way about her investigation and the clues she found. Her mother said that she was in denial, and every other character was thinking along those lines, too, but it turned out that she was the only one who was not in denial, and I think this was obvious all along, since she was at least being rational while the others were not. The only thing that caught me off-guard was Liz not crying for a long time, but eventually she had a near-hysterical ugly-cry, so I guess that's how she handles grief, and it's why her calm, muted reaction to Max's death in season 3 didn't seem weird (if he had stayed dead, she would eventually have freaked out and cried like crazy, but not until the shock wore off).

Anyway, I think that these episodes toward the end of season 2 were instead very anti-Max, especially with his outward hostility toward Liz. They made him look not only mean and controlling, but quite stupid, especially for sleeping with Tess. OK, fine, he thought that he had lost Liz, but it didn't mean that he had to go and do that at this point in time. I can understand, in the grand scheme of things, but it still made him look very bad, and rightfully so. He had turned away from himself and everyone and everything in his life that was real, and toward a sycophant who told him what he wanted to hear and of a life that wasn't ever really his.

And it sure didn't help that this sycophant turned out to be a backstabber with her own agenda--she played him for a fool and took advantage of his weakness and vulnerability. Even the other hybrids literally eyeballed the two of them suspiciously and wondered out loud whether Liz was right. And of course she was right, which excuses a lot of her off-putting behavior, which was already understandable to begin with (even Max understood at first, although he still wanted to control her). No, Liz came out of this smelling like a rose, while Max was thoroughly trashed, even to the point of heavy attrition among Dreamers. I recall a fair number of people saying that they could no longer ship Max & Liz because they didn't like Max anymore after this.

Heck, even Liz's irrational rant against what he did at least felt right. "God, with Tess?!" says it all, really. Yeah, Liz had pushed him away and even toward Tess, due to the stupid Future Max thing, and she knew full well that she had no right to say some of the things that she did, which was why she shut up after Max mentioned Kyle, but this was how she and I bet a lot of the viewers felt. In her heart, she couldn't believe, despite the circumstances, that he'd actually fall in love with Tess and sleep with her, especially so quickly. It still felt like a betrayal, not just to herself, but to the kind of guy that she thought Max was, and fans, too, were disappointed. Never mind that, Max was disappointed, not only in what had happened, but in himself, too, which he would eventually mercilessly take out on the trashcans. I think it took a lot of faith for most Dreamers to continue dreaming for them to be together, but of course ultimately we were rewarded.

azure angel

hey welcome rbrtck

I'm going to join the debate later or tomorrow lol

rbrtck

Not to be argumentative, and I'm sure that I'm in the tiniest of minorities here, if not entirely alone, but I think that line is OK, and honest on Max's part, at least at the time he said it. Should he instead have told Liz what he thought she wanted to hear? And what exactly would that have been, anyway? Do you think she wanted to hear that he slept with and impregnated a girl he didn't love at all? What, just to spite Liz, or because he's just that kind of a guy?

No, I think she wanted to hear the truth, and that he told her the truth, which also happened to be what she wanted to hear anyway because it was what she believed in her heart--that Max wouldn't go around sleeping with just anyone, yet he still loved Liz more and on a different level, even though he couldn't be with her. Additionally, some of his "love" or whatever his feelings really were for Tess might well have come from his implanted Antarian memories, and have nothing to do with reality, but he still felt them. And of course Max no longer had any positive feelings for Tess after she was uncovered as Alex's murderer, but before that, as hard as this might be for Dreamers to admit/accept, he probably did feel some kind of "love" for Tess, or else he wouldn't have slept with her. If it's any consolation, he would have slept with Liz months earlier, according to Future Max, and without the stupid messing-with-time crap, they would have been together and inseparable.

Whether or not you agree with the foregoing, what should Max have said instead?

rbrtck

Thanks, great to be here.


Yeah...you can probably tell that I've been holding this in for years.