*Ledi*

No one here ever said that Hamas is not a terrorist organization. People are just saying that it's a tragedy when so many Palestinians die. They are people, not terrorists, and they don't deserve to die in this way. Yes, they elected Hamas, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are also terrorists. If they're terrorists for electing Hamas, then every American must be an idiot who can't speak properly since Bush was elected twice.

Hugo

Yes, Israel has a right to defend itself, but don't the Palestinian people (I'm not saying Hamas) but the civilians that actually get killed, who actually cares about what happens to them and how they are going to protect themselves. I know the technicalities of the situation is that the West doesn't blame the Palestinians but Hamas but every action taken by the West so far has condemned the Palestinians to their present fate,

Exactly, all the continued fighting produces is new generations of angry people who hate eachother and the only way to stop the fighting is to acknowledge that there is no one right side, there never is in life, if we continue to analyze world affairs through a manichean perspective no solution will ever be found

I definitely agree, sometimes it seems that all this news of war on our screens has made us immune to tens of people dying for no apparent reason at all and there in lies the real tragedy

Pablo Neruda once said that "Perhaps this war will pass like the others which divided us leaving us dead, killing us along with the killers but the shame of this time puts its burning fingers to our faces. Who will erase the ruthlessness hidden in innocent blood?”

The problem is that the first casualty of war is our humanity and our respect for human lives, and the manner in which we do not think twice while looking at those pictures of dead people, that for me is the greatest problem with this conflict

marina86

I never said that those innocent people deserve to die. I'm just saying that those deaths can't be avoided. It's awful and sad but I don't think Israel is to blame here.

Israel can not allow a situation when it's civilians are under attack 24/7, so not responding is not really a choice here. And since the Hamas related targets are right next to civilians homes, universities etc. innocent people are bound to die. Beyond that, Hamas is trying to make sure that they will actually die.

Real peace or even a ceasefire can not be achieved when Hamas, a terrorist organization that has no respect for the lives of the Israeli or Palestinian people, is controlling the Gaza strip.

FrellingTralk

I agree, people were in tears over the tragic loss of innocent lifes during the 9/11 and London tube attacks, and it was commonly said that there could never be any justifaction for such an atrocity (which I agreed with). And in three days over 300 people in Palestine have died (many of them children), thousands have been injured with many having lost limbs, and there's not even close to the same outrage. It's like the international community is afraid to say too much to condemn these attacks, George Bush has said he completely supports Israel's systematic bombing. It's not that people believe that these people deserve to die, but all of these deaths are being viewed as collateral damage

Personally I find that very sad. If it were even 60 people killed in an attack on Israel, most of the world would be in mournning and condemning Hamas as butchers, so again I have to wonder at the double standards

sunnykerr

The thing of it is, too, that it doesn't matter what anyone calls Hamas. If Israel isn't willing to talk to them, then we can't forget about peace ever happening.

I'm watching the BBC news reports on this as I type this. Now, take it whatever way you want, but apparently Israel are calling this an exercize in "restoring the army's deterrent power" which is seen to have diminished since the standstill with Lebanon two years ago.

One thins is for sure, though: The UN have called Israel's response excessive. Because Gaza refugee camps have been hit and because Gaza is so more densely populated then Israel. A spokesperson for Ban Ki-Moon has said, "The secretary general is deeply alarmed by today's heavy violence and bloodshed in Gaza, and the continuation of violence in southern Israel. [He] appeals for an immediate halt to all violence [and reiterates] previous calls for humanitarian supplies to be allowed into Gaza to aid the distressed civilian population."

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Reaction in quotes: Gaza bombing

And, here's the thing, Israel is trying to separate Hamas from the Palestinians who don't support it. And I get that. It's a good idea. But this won't do it. You bomb the people (and, yeah, innocent casualties come with that, if that's what you're gonna do), and they're not gonna suddenly start thinking you were right all along. If anything, this will galvanize Hamas' support at home.

Again (because this seems to be lost oftentimes), I don't blame Israel for defending itself. It has every right to do so.

I am simply hoping for peace. If the different sides of the political miasma in Northern Ireland can find resolution, even though they often called one another terrorists, then it shouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities for the same thing to happen in the Middle-East.

marina86

I think the double standard goes both ways.

I just don't think that Hamas=Israeli government, which is basically what I'm getting from the discussion here. Israel isn't trying to kill innocent civilians just for the heck of it, like Hamas does.

sunnykerr

I can't speak for everyone else, but I do think Hamas was elected... whether that was through a legitimate, democratic election or not, I can't speak to. Thus, it is constituting the Palestinian government as it exist now, such as it is.

And the Palestinian people certainly seem to view it as their government.

So, whatever the rest of us think, it's pretty much mootsville. Ceasefires and peace agreements are made between governments. Who else are the Israeli supposed to negotiate with?

As to Hamas killing people "for the heck of it"... I'm certainly not saying that their reasoning is sound or correct or defendable or justifiable, but Hamas do have a political agenda. From their perspective, and certainly from that of the people in the refugee camps who have been bombed, you could argue that they are no more killing Israeli at random then Palestinians have been killed at random.

ETA - I'm watching NBC now... a university was bombed in Palestinian and five sisters were killed when a Mosque was bombed and its wall collapsed on their apartment next door.

dayne

Yes, Israel has a right to defend itself, but I'd prefer a proportionate response. While the mini Hamas rockets have killed maybe 10 Israelis over the past two years, Israel has killed 400 already within two days. And that's not counting the other operations conducted by the IDF.

The Palestinians themselves need to think long and hard about keeping HAMAS stay in power. Cause it's definitely not to their long or short term benefit.

sunnykerr

Well, I don't think the fact that they've been comparatively ineffective is any reason why Hamas sending rockets into Israel is in any way more justifiable than Israel's airstrikes. Neither is acceptable.

But the foreign minister for Israel declaring "all out war on Hamas" isn't gonna help anything.

We know that many Palestinians are not Hamas supporters. But, as the Palestinian infrastructure is bombed, it's not like that's gonna liberate other parties to come in and compete with Hamas.

FrellingTralk

I agree that Humas are in the wrong too, but it goes both ways. Israel has illegally expanded their borders by confiscating land, exploiting natural resources, building more than 250 settlements, transferring more than 400,000 Israelis to the occupied territories, establishing a dual system of law ,and even annexing part of the territory. Not to mention the daily humiliations and brutality that can happen at the hands of an occuping army.


If we're going to put it all on Human starting it and Israel should not be expected to negotiate with terrorists, then why don't they end their occupation of Palestine territories, because why should Palestine be expected to negotiate until that illegal situation is ended? And make no mistake, it is illegal, the UN has asked Israel to end their occupation because it is a violation of international law. The United States providing substantial military and economic support for Israel’s military occupation has actually set them apart from the international consensus on resolving the conflict with the UN so it's fair for both sides

marina86

But Hamas doesn't except the existence of Israel and wants it to be destroyed. How Is Israel supposed to negotiate with that kind of a government?

antisocial - Israel pulled out it's troops and the settlements in the Gaza strip back in 2005. And that, by the way, only increased the amounts of rockets that were fired to Israel.

sunnykerr

And how can Palestinians negotiate with a country that keeps taking over their lands?

Both sides have reasons to mistrust and resent the other side. If any of us have any hope of ever seeing peace in the Middle-East, they will have to find a way to meet and find a resolution.

FrellingTralk

It's debatable whether the occupation was totally ended though as Israel still controlled air space, sea access, and the passages, although I agree that it was better than it was, and it was Hamas's election in 2006 that really worsened the situation after that

I would never argue that either side is blameless, I just get frustrated when people like George Bush justify Israel's air strikes by putting all of the blame on Hamas for the failed ceasefire when the situation is a lot more complicated than that. If only more world leaders would speak out in unequivally condemning the attacks, then I would feel much better about it all IMO it's wrong to condemn the bombings from one side as terrorism, and then argue that Israel's bombings are totally justified. Both sides share blame, and both sides need to realise that killing is not the answer. I understand that innocent Israel people have been killed since the ending of the ceasefire, but to me nothing justifies responding with three days of air strikes and 300 people dead, and now there are rumours of a ground offense being planned as well. A totally brutal and disproportinate response, and they must know that Hamas will never surrender that way anyway, they will only get anywhere through negotiations. Currently it just feels like Israel settling on all out war and taking vengeance for the deaths of Israel citizens, and it's more innocent people paying the price for that

marina86

Exactly. And the fact that Hamas was elected after Israel pulled out of the Gaza strip doesn't mean anything?

It's not about vengeance. The point of this attack is to make Hamas weaker and to stop the missile attacks on Israel. The targets are Hamas targets, but in an area like Gaza and with Hamas using children as human shields, deaths are bound to happen.

Saying that Israeli occupation is the same as Hamas attacking is exactly like saying that Israel has no right to defend itself. You simply can not compare the two.

FrellingTralk

Israel removed Jewish settlers from Gaza, but they still controlled parts of the West Bank, and their occupation never fully ended. I imagine the election of Hamas was partly down to the hopes of creating a Palestine state. The traditional Israeli view is that there is no such thing as Palenstine people, and certaintly that Israel holds no responsibility for establishing a nation for them, a view that isn't that fair from Hamas refusing to recognise the state of Israel


The Israeli army has also been caught on camera using Palenstine children as human shields when they enter buildings of the occupied territory, neither side are covered in glory here.

And Israel must know by now that their policies are not working, that casualities on both sides have risen since Israel went on the defensive in 2002. It's a cycle of violence. When I hear the angry and threatening comments, then yes I do believe that vengeance plays a very large part (this applies to both sides of the conflict mind you).


But it is the same because both sides believe they are under attack and their methods are justified. Hamas were elected in the first place as a result of Israel's foreign policy and treatment of the Palenstine people. Israel's illegal blockade of the Gaza strip has seen them allowing people to live on the edge of survival, to starve, hoping that the economic pressure will bring down the Hamas government. This is an illegal collective punishment targeting 1.5 million people, and it's still going on today