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Old 12-28-2008, 05:08 AM
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Massive Israeli raid on Gaza Strip

Israeli aircraft fired dozens of missiles on multiple targets in the Gaza Strip, killing at least 195 civilians according to Hamas, and destroying several Hamas security installations. The attack follows the end of a six-month ceasefire on Dec.19.


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AFP - At least 195 Palestinians were killed across the Gaza Strip on Saturday in massive Israeli air strikes on the Hamas-run enclave, said the head of Gaza emergency services Moawiya Hassanein.

Another 300 people were wounded, some 120 of them seriously in the attacks.

And an Israeli died as Hamas swiftly responded to the air raids by firing several dozen rockets on the Jewish state.



'Israel ready to retaliate, Hamas strikes back' - read more


The European Union and its current president, France, urged both sides to stop fighting, as did Britain and Russia.

The United States said Israel should avoid civilian casualties, while the Arab League and a number of Middle Eastern states singled out Israel for blame.

Israel warned that the attacks, in which army radio said around 60 aircraft bombed the impoverished, overcrowded territory of 1.5 million people, was "just the beginnning."

Hamas told Israelis living near Gaza to "prepare the funeral shrouds."

In Gaza, thick clouds of smoke billowed into the sky, with mangled, bloodied and often charred corpses littering the pavement around Hamas security compounds, television images showed.

It was not immediately clear how many of those killed were civilians, with medics saying that the majority of the victims appeared to be members of Hamas, which has ruled Gaza since seizing power there last year.

Dr Moawiya Hassanein, the head of Gaza emergency services, at least 160 people were killed and 300 wounded, and that rescuers were still searching for bodies in the rubble.

The attacks came after days of escalating violence, with militants firing rockets and Israel vowing a fiery response.

Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas told AFP from Saudi Arabia that he was in "urgent contact" with numerous countries to stop "the cowardly aggressions and massacres in the Gaza Strip."

Egypt, which brokered a six-month Israeli-Hamas truce that expired on December 19, slammed the bombardment.

"Egypt condemns the Israeli military aggression on the Gaza Strip and blames Israel, as an occupying force, for the victims and the wounded," President Hosni Mubarak said in a statement.

He order the Rafah terminal -- the only one that bypasses Israel -- to be opened to allow wounded Palestinians to be evacuated for treatment in Egyptian hospitals.

Dozens of wounded had passed through by mid-afternoon, Egyptian state news agency Mena reported, with public television saying 200 were expected in the coming hours.

Hamas called on its fighters to "avenge with force against the enemy" while its militants warned Israelis living near the border to "prepare the funeral shrouds," vowing that the Islamists' response "was on its way."

One rocket hit the southern Israeli town of Netivot, killing a man and wounding four other people, according to the Magen David Adom, Israel's equivalent of the Red Cross.

Israel, which put communities around Gaza on a state of alert, warned that the deadly strikes were "just the beginning," said an army spokesman.

"The operation will continue and will be expanded as necessary in accordance with the assessments of the army and the defence establishment," Defence Minister Ehud Barak's office said.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's office said the Israeli onslaught was launched "following... the incessant attacks on Israeli citizens in the south of the country ..." in order to "bring the rocket fire to an end."

The bombing hit and destroyed Hamas security structures across Gaza, the group said. A training base of the Hamas military wing, the Ezzedine Al-Qassam Brigades, was pounded in the north.

Hamas said three of its senior officials -- the Gaza police chief, the police commander for central Gaza and the head of the group's bodyguard unit -- were killed in the blitz.

The mid-morning air raids followed days of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel by militants inside Gaza, which the Jewish state had warned would be met with harsh reprisals.

Violence in and around the Gaza Strip has flared since the ceasefire ended. It escalated dramatically on Wednesday, when militants fired more than 80 rockets and mortar rounds in response to air strikes on Gaza.

Israel had responded to earlier attacks by tightening the blockade it imposed after Hamas seized Gaza from forces loyal to Abbas.

However, dozens of truckloads of supplies were delivered to Gaza on Friday after Israel decided to temporarily allow in humanitarian aid.

Hamas is sworn to destruction of the Jewish state and has warned that it would retaliate to a major Israeli operation in Gaza by resuming suicide bombings inside Israel. The last such attack claimed by Hamas was in January 2005.


source : France24

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Old 12-28-2008, 02:12 PM
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And Israel has a right to defend herself against terrorist attacks that in numerous circumstances have been condoned by a Hamas led government. Palestine is just as guilty, and I'm not saying that I condone Israeli actions, but they were attacked first. It says, in that news report, that "Hamas is sworn to the destruction of the Jewish state." So doesn't Israel have the right to retaliate against that, just as any government has the right to protect themselves against attack. Since the attacks began against Israel, they have the right to retaliate, just as any number of countries does. And while the civilian casualties are tragic, I think the terrorists are cowards for hiding themselves amongst the civilians. Numerous Israeli citizens have been killed due to Hamas and other Anti-Jewish, Anti-Israeli groups but that isn't considered genocide. It's a double standard in that part of the world.
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Old 12-28-2008, 04:14 PM
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Except that it is possible to be Palestinian without being a supporter of Hamas. And, let's face it, when Israel bombs the Gaza... they really bomb the heck out of it.

Obviously, Israel is allowed to defend itself, but every time they slaughter their neighbours in order to protect themselves... you can't imagine they're creating any impetus towards renewed diplomacy is all.
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Old 12-28-2008, 04:50 PM
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What other alternative there is for Israel to defend itself? Hamas is fighting from an extremely populated area so there's really no other choice than "bombing the heck of Gaza".
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Old 12-28-2008, 07:44 PM
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Again, I agree, Israel has every right to defend itself. Hamas is a terrorist organization. It attacked Israel. They have the right to fight back.

However, I would feel more confident fully defending Israel's right to defend itself if universities hadn't been born and little children killed.

Israeli airstrikes in Gaza enter third day - CNN.com

I don't understand. They want changes on the ground, yet they must be aware that Palestinians cannot move, partly because of Hamas control, but also partly because of Israeli regulations. So explain to me how you can justify, as a democratic nation, targetting civilian centres when you know the innocent people who live there cannot run for their own lives.

I'm not saying Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself. I have never said that.

I'm merely pointing out that it seems to me that there seems to be some difficulty in distinguishing between genuine terrorist targets and civilian innocents. And coming from a country that's a democracy, a well-informed and well-armed one at that... I find that unacceptable.
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Old 12-28-2008, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post)
Again, I agree, Israel has every right to defend itself. Hamas is a terrorist organization. It attacked Israel. They have the right to fight back.

However, I would feel more confident fully defending Israel's right to defend itself if universities hadn't been born and little children killed.

Israeli airstrikes in Gaza enter third day - CNN.com

I don't understand. They want changes on the ground, yet they must be aware that Palestinians cannot move, partly because of Hamas control, but also partly because of Israeli regulations. So explain to me how you can justify, as a democratic nation, targetting civilian centres when you know the innocent people who live there cannot run for their own lives.

I'm not saying Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself. I have never said that.

I'm merely pointing out that it seems to me that there seems to be some difficulty in distinguishing between genuine terrorist targets and civilian innocents. And coming from a country that's a democracy, a well-informed and well-armed one at that... I find that unacceptable.
Around 50% of all World War II casualties were civilian. That happens. Especially when bombs are being used since they aren't always as accurate as bullets on the ground and they do more damage. If Palestine's government isn't willing, or isn't able, to stop the terrorists from attacking Israel from Palestine then it's Israel's right to protect themselves. The terrorists were attacking soft (civilian) targets from an area heavily populated by civilians. What other option does Israel have that wouldn't result in heavy casualties to their soldiers and would take significantly longer than an air strike? In a war, it's not always a battle of good vs evil but it is a battle of us vs them and I'll fight to defend my family, even if, tragically, a civilian casualty takes place. It's the mentality of war and it's brutal and horrible and bloody and wrong, but it happens. Israel has that right, and since we're not there, listening to the tacticians, looking at the situation, seeing the logical solutions to what's going on, I don't think it's as simply as saying that it's unacceptable to distinguish between terrorist and civilian targets.

The terrorists aren't wearing badges that say, "Hey, I'm a terrorist" and more than likely they're dressed similar to the civilian population. That's been a big problem in Iraq. Terrorist organizations will strap a bomb to an innocent child and send them into a group of soldiers, or they'll dress like the civilian population and pull out an AK-47 when the patrol walks by. It's not as easy as pointing and saying "good guy, bad guy". They also might be firing from civilian heavy population centers, in which case bombing or ground attacks would result in civilian casualties but bombing results in less Israeli casualties, so of course they're going to chose that option. There's also the fact that evacuating the population would probably lead to the evacuation of the terrorists since there's no way to discern them from the civilian population. Needless to say, it's a bit more of a difficult situation than those of us sitting behind our computers in the safety of our homes can comprehend.
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Old 12-29-2008, 01:01 AM
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I don't think this will come out right, but I am honestly just so sick of this conflict. I don't favour any side. I just want this to stop. These people need to learn how to co-exist with each other because neither is going to disappear anytime soon.
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Old 12-29-2008, 04:28 AM
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just one thing, a terrorist is the one who begins the terror!

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Old 12-29-2008, 09:51 AM
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The discussion here underlines the main problem about the conflict, there are two sides and neither one is willing to acknowledge the other, and as long as an either/or and us/them dichotomy continues the conflict can never be resolved. The basis of any conflict resolution is compromise and not proving how historically right one side is and if the aim of the discussion remains only proving the rightfulness of one side then common ground can never be found.

Providing those pictures only present one side of the story, a story that attempts to demonstrate how the Palestinians were wronged. Yet that is not the whole picture. The 1947 UN Partition Plan was rejected by the Arabs, after the declaration of an independent state it was the Arabs that declared war and lost the territories given to them by the partition plan, and as such Israel was not the aggressor. Historically if any party wronged the Palestinians I would consider it to be Great Britain who instead of trying to establish a more peaceful transition to independence delegated the responsibility to the UN.

Whatever might have happened more than 50 years ago can not be used as a justification for the constant fear of terrorist attack that Israeli citizens live under daily nor can it be used as a justification for the abysmal conditions under which Palestinians live.

Unfortunately, what gets lost in these discussions seems to be our respect for human lives. Everyone gets wrapped up in the history, in the current political ramifications and forgets that innocent people die, whether Palestinian or Israeli, whether Muslim or Jewish, I think they deserved better than being blown up and that is what we need to remember, that this conflict has taken enough innocent lives on both sides and rather than trying to prove that one side is completely right and the other is completely wrong, the discussion should revolve around how common ground can be found.
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Old 12-29-2008, 10:10 AM
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Unfortunately, what gets lost in these discussions seems to be our respect for human lives. Everyone gets wrapped up in the history, in the current political ramifications and forgets that innocent people die, whether Palestinian or Israeli, whether Muslim or Jewish, I think they deserved better than being blown up and that is what we need to remember, that this conflict has taken enough innocent lives on both sides and rather than trying to prove that one side is completely right and the other is completely wrong, the discussion should revolve around how common ground can be found.
That's actually what I was trying to get at, though this is said far, far better than I ever could have.

Again, I believe Israel has every right to defend itself. I only grieve for the Palestinians because we all know they cannot run away from the bombs, being prohibited to move by their own government and by Israeli regulations. I do not grieve for Palestinian losses over that of the Israeli sides. This isn't about grieving for one side rather than the other. What I grieve is the lack of freedom that is currently preventing Palestinians from even attempting to escape their possible deaths.

As to the fact that innocent lives being lost is a part of any bombing, it's not like I'm unaware of that fact. I still feel it is unacceptable.

Just because I think defense is called for, and even if I know that certain casualties are to be expected from said defense, the fact that there casualties is still cause for grief and I still wish there was another way.
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:34 PM
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What I grieve is the lack of freedom that is currently preventing Palestinians from even attempting to escape their possible deaths.
Thing is, even if Israel (or Egypt) allowed that kind of freedom, Hamas would not allow innocent people to escape anyway. They're doing everything they can to increase the number of casualties on the Palestinian side.
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Old 12-29-2008, 01:41 PM
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Numerous Israeli citizens have been killed due to Hamas and other Anti-Jewish, Anti-Israeli groups but that isn't considered genocide. It's a double standard in that part of the world.

Those double standards go both ways though. When it's Palestine people bombing Israel they are condemned as terrorists, and when it's Israel bombing Palestine the Western media reports it as justified self-defense. It's both sides bombing one another, so why is one side looked upon more favourably than the other for doing the exact same thing?

Just as Israel sees their bombings as justified because of the Palenstine people bombing them, the Palestine people see their bombings as self-defense too because of the Israel occupation and treatment of Palestines, the death toll of the military raids, and the blockade causing people to live in intolerable conditions with a lack of food, medical supplies, and electric.

And it doesn't help when people like George Bush totally justify everything Israel does, and puts all all of the blame on Hamas. Neither side were doing all that much to work towards a ceasefire and both sides are actually saying the other side broke the ceasefire first, so it's not as simple as the news reports would like to make out.


Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen | World news | guardian.co.uk


Quote:
A four-month ceasefire between Israel and Palestinian militants in Gaza was in jeopardy today after Israeli troops killed six Hamas gunmen in a raid into the territory.

Hamas responded by firing a wave of rockets into southern Israel, although no one was injured. The violence represented the most serious break in a ceasefire agreed in mid-June, yet both sides suggested they wanted to return to atmosphere of calm.

Until now it had appeared both Israel and Hamas, which seized full control of Gaza last summer, had an interest in maintaining the ceasefire.

In Gaza, a Hamas spokesman, Fawzi Barhoum, said the group had fired rockets out of Gaza as a "response to Israel's massive breach of the truce".

So there are different reports of what ended the ceasefire depending on where you look

I'm not saying I'm completely for or against either side, I wish there could just be an end to the conflict. But I think it's ridiculously unfair when Western nations put all of the blame on Palestine. The truth is that Israel hasn't done all that much to work towards a fair ceasefire, how can they expect the Palestine people not to resent them when they continue their economic blockade of the Gazza strip, even during a ceasefire?
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Old 12-29-2008, 02:18 PM
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Thing is, even if Israel (or Egypt) allowed that kind of freedom, Hamas would not allow innocent people to escape anyway. They're doing everything they can to increase the number of casualties on the Palestinian side.
I don't believe I blamed Israel alone for the Palestinian's entire inability to flee for their lives. I'm well aware that there are multiple forces preventing them from saving themselves if they can.

Quote:
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Those double standards go both ways though. When it's Palestine people bombing Israel they are condemned as terrorists, and when it's Israel bombing Palestine the Western media reports it as justified self-defense. It's both sides bombing one another, so why is one side looked upon more favourably than the other for doing the exact same thing?
I also think this is a fair point. We don't get reports on the Israeli raids and their toll in term of human lives. We don't hear about the houses being torn down by the army and the settlers.

To be clear, I don't think any of it justifies launching bombs or rockets or any of it. I sincerely don't.

I do know that, though it is never justified, terrorism is sometimes (big emphasis on that word) the recourse of people who don't see other alternatives.

But the point I'm trying to make is that it is a complex situation and that our media has done a tremendous job of oversimplifying all of it and casting the different sides in very specific parts. Palestinians are terrorists and Israelis are just defending themselves. Well, sometimes that's true. Sometimes, it's not. Sometimes, it's a little bit of both. And, meanwhile, innocent people are dying. And I find that appalling.
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Old 12-29-2008, 02:46 PM
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The ceasefire actually lasted after the date that's on that article. I don't really see the big deal about that particular incident since it was meant to stop the Hamas gunman from kidnapping Israeli soldiers. And to be fair, Rockets were thrown at Israel during the ceasefire even before that incident, it just wasn't as massive as it is now on December 19th, Hamas were the ones to break the ceasefire with massive rocket firing to southern area of Israel.

Western nations do not put the blame on Palestine. They put the blame on Hamas. No matter how you look at it, it's a terrorist organization, calling for the destruction of Israel and doing everything they can to increase the death toll on the the both the Palestinian side and the Israeli side.

You can't expect Israel to work to achieve a ceasefire with a terrorist organization. An organization that doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist and is calling for it's destruction.
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Old 12-29-2008, 03:33 PM
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The ceasefire was signed in June, and under the terms of the agreement, Israel was to greatly ease its occupation. They never complied with that. And the rocketfire did not resume as an organised campaign until November 4th's invasion of the coastal territory. Of course Israel believe they are justified in miliatary raids to control Hamas terrorists, I understand that, and from our POV that raid wouldn't be seen as that big a deal. But I can also understand the resentment of the people who are seeing their land take over by an occuping force, and blockades and restrictions on travel not being lifted until Israel find it convienient for the safety of the occupants of Israel. Meanwhile their actions are creating a severe humanitarian crisis for the people living on the Gaza strip, and leaving many innocent people starving.


Quote:
You can't expect Israel to work to achieve a ceasefire with a terrorist organization. An organization that doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist and is calling for it's destruction.
The same could be said for the people of Palestine being expected to achive a ceasefire while Israel is imposing a blockade, a blockade which is imposing a collective punishment on the entire population of Gaza, and has been condemned by the UN as illegal and unfair. This has been going on for months, and most of the world turned a blind eye to that, even when it is a clear violation of human rights. A country has the right to defend itself within reason, but international law condemns this collective punishment as illegal, yet Israel continues to reduce supplies of food, electric, and fuel to Gaza, even now when hospitals need more supplies than ever after the air raids.

I get that Israel's goal is not to just be cruel for the sake of it, and that they are genuinally working to defend loss of life in Israel, and see their actions as needing to prevent a terrorist group. But if Hamas didn't do much to work with Israel, well did Israel really prove any more reasonable and willing to work with them and improve conditions? Instead they talk of all-out war and a time for fighting. Sadly all they are doing is making suicide bombing of their people more likely than ever. Just as the US decided a war on terror was the answer to the 9/11 tragedy, and yet even more miliants have sprung up since then, and attacks on other Western countries. The only way to achive peace in the Middle East is not through bombing people into submission and cutting them off from their basic human rights, but through talking and negotiations. At the moment all both sides have achieved is creating more and more angry and desperate people looking to strike out
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