[Cristofle]

Actually, by law if Zimmerman started the fight he almost certainly is guilty of at least manslaughter, especially given that he started a fight while carrying a concealed weapon. You don't have the right to kill someone who fights back in a fight you started. You don't get to pull out a gun and shoot them because they dare to hit back.

I think however, if they can get the experts to say it was Trayvon screaming for help when the shooting occurred, that's what would make it second degree murder, not manslaughter. Because once the kid is screaming for help, the fight is over and George Zimmerman is no longer in any kind reasonable fear for his life.

[sunnykerr]

If Zimmerman started the fight, at the very least, it negates that whole Stand Your Ground bullcrap, no?

I mean, if Zimmerman started the fight, anything Trayvon Martin did becomes a matter of his self-defence. So Martin is the one who, technically, should be covered by that moronic stupic law.

Look at me. "If" Zimmerman started the fight.

[Cristofle]

LOL. Well, as I think I've mentioned before, Jon Stewart put it best. STAND your ground is not MOVE your ground, lol. None of this would have happened had GZ kept his wannabe cop ass in the car, and we need to take a stance against vigilante behavior, especially with a gun.

ETA: not to mention, it was "vigilante" behavior for the crime happening in his mind, since the kid was only packing some Skittles and tea and had every reason to be there.

[Gray Ghost]

I will concur with Alonzo Harris on this. He says it's not what ya know, it's what you can prove. I'll go with him on this one.

[TheAngel]

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost (View Post) I will concur with Alonzo Harris on this. He says it's not what ya know, it's what you can prove. I'll go with him on this one.

It's true, but that doesn't mean that we can't debate our own opinions of the case.

[Barstool Prophet]

With exams I really haven't been following this case to closely. The one thing I have noticed it's really calling into question what is and isn't self defence. There is that whole difference between standing your ground and self defense. How much force is okay if you think your life is in danger?

[Avatar]

Well, if you think your life is in danger you have the right to use lethal force. But you have to use it in self-defense. For instance, if I attack you, you have the right to defend yourself. But when you do that, I don't have the right to invoke the principle of self-defense to defend myself against your acts, as they are de facto legal. And that might be the case here.

[Cristofle]

Yes. If George Zimmerman instigated the fight, then he committed an illegal act right there and he is the one who is criminally responsible for Trayvon's death as a result. Now, if Trayvon HAD responded with force to defend himself and they were still in the midst of that when he got shot, it would probably be manslaughter. They could say Zimmerman had no way of knowing when he chased the kid and started a fight that it would actually lead to his death and he thought he was defending himself in the moment, but since he started the fight, he is still liable for Trayvon's death. However, IF the prosecution can show Trayvon is the one screaming on the tape, that's probably going to bump it up to second degree murder- as I said, the fight is over if the kid is screaming for help.

Also, one thing that hasn't been mentioned too much, and it's possibly due to laws in Florida, is that in order to have a concealed weapons permit you have to take a class, and USUALLY in that class you are told you absolutely DO not instigate a fight or chase someone down with your gun. Who knows if this is the case with Florida's crazy gun laws

[sunnykerr]

I'm not American, so someone will have to enlighten me on this, but is it really credible that someone with a gun can provoke a confrontation and the other guy dies and they're NOT responsible for that?

I mean, that makes NO sense to me. NO sense to me whatsoever.

[Gray Ghost]

You should be blaming Florida for having a bogus vague law like Stand Your Ground. If the kid had had a gun or knife on him, the story would be completely different but that's not the case. The proesecution seemed like it fumbled the ball on the charges. I'm not a legal expert or an expert on anything but it seems like it would have been easier for them to convict Zimmerman on something less such as manslaughter rather than 2nd degree murder.

[Avatar]

Well, the Sanford police chief is 'temporarily' stepping down: U.S. News - Police chief steps down temporarily over handling of Trayvon Martin case

[sunnykerr]

We did blame Florida for having a bogus law. Unfortunately, there's only so much time a board can spend on discussing the minutia of why a law is bogus, so we've moved on to other aspects of this case that are bogus.

Dan Yeah, he actually stepped down about a month ago. A month too late, if you ask me.

[Avatar]

Originally Posted by Avatar (View Post) Well, the Sanford police chief is 'temporarily' stepping down: U.S. News - Police chief steps down temporarily over handling of Trayvon Martin case

Never mind: Town where Trayvon Martin died in 'limbo' after city nixes chief's resignation - CNN.com

Rejecting the resignation is surprising. I can't see a good reason for doing so myself.

[Cristofle]

If they wanted to fire him, they'd reject his resignation. He still gets things like pensions and benefits with a resignation, I think. Alas, I'm not hopeful that's the case since everyone involved seems to be whining about how unfair it was he lost his job. I'm sorry. HE IS INCOMPETENT. LOL. Man, I'd move out of that town so fast.

[Avatar]

Oh, good point. I didn't think of that. I don't wish that unemployment on anyone, but sometimes, that's the only solution for gross incompetence.