starryeyesxx

Yeah, it just felt off in s5.

It's been a while since I watched that ep, so I can't really remember all that was said... was good to see some things getting rehashed though, even if they weren't exactly good scenes. & it proved that Gunn was right about Fred not wanting to live with the guilt in 4x05, because she admitted then that she thought about it everyday. If she had just listened to Gunn back then, it all would have been so different...

eternalfate

It sure did.

If you want to I can re-watch it with you because it was actually a lot of scenes with them. And I really didn't remember any of it... but I felt they finally got on good terms again and I was happy to see those 2 team up.

They also both said they felt the pain from what happened with the Professor. So, I really enjoyed that conversation between them.

starryeyesxx

Sure, I'm always down for a rewatch & I've actually got some decent spare time in the next two weeks

eternalfate

If you want, we can par up 2 episodes since it sort of goes back to each.

4x05 "Supersymmetry" & 4x20 "Sacrifice"

?

starryeyesxx

Oh, that's quite a good idea! We can see if there are any parallels or little things like that, that we haven't noticed before!

eternalfate

Yup! when do you want to schedule it?

Crystal Clear

I was away for a while and trying to catch up with this thread

Great point and the sad thing is that it's pretty clear Wesley doesn't go to either one of them for advice with the "Father Will Kill The Son" prophecy because he's still hurting over their romantic relationship, meaning that Wesley jeopardizes losing his family and Angel's respect not because he doesn't trust his friends, but because he's too bitter to confront them about the situation. I hate that Gunn and Fred's romance is basically doomed from the start with this whole prophecy thing.

Absolutely true. Gunn's intentions are always overlooked in that situation. It wasn't about him being macho or trying to undermine Fred's views. He remembered how she had suffered in Pylea and how she would continue to suffer if she had exacted a violent revenge on the Professor. Gunn gave up his own rules and killed that guy so that Fred didn't have to carry that burden. What he did for her was AMAZING.

Yep, the whole gang are living with regrets at that point. Plus, the real Cordelia was gone, so Fred didn't have her to turn to for support. Gunn was her truest support system, yet she let him go based on some ridiculous notion that he took away her right to commit a murder that would have haunted her forever. Just thinking about that makes it more and more clear how right Gunn was, and how Fred shouldn't have been so quick to turn to Wesley in that situation.

Fans always say that Gunn was unnecessarily jealous, but he had every right to be. Fred should have trusted his judgement and not just turned to the first man who would try to use spells to make things go away.

starryeyesxx

Glad you agree with my points, especially as it's not something that I see a lot of people talking about it! & I agree with you about how Gunn had the right to feel protective of his relationship with Fred. Wesley wasn't treating their relationship with any respect at all, if he thought he could steal Fred away, he definitely would have, no matter how ugly the circumstances might have been. Gunn & Fred were also dealing with something pretty big at the time, & they needed to heal together, which they just didn't get the chance to... Wesley didn't actually care about their happiness at all, if Fred was miserable because her relationship was struggling, that was awesome for Wesley, because then he could use that to spend time with her... he only wanted her happy if it was with him

I'm free this weekend

eternalfate

Crystal Clear

I'm not sure if I'll be available for the re-watch, but I remember Supersymmetry very well, so I'll join you in discussion about it around that time

I agree, and this is coming from someone who was nearly always pro-Wesley during the show. In 3x06, my heart broke for him when I saw how torn up he was about Billy's influence and how it affected his behavior towards Fred. However, when I saw Gunn and Fred's interaction in Birthday and Waiting in the Wings (two amazing episodes), I was completely on board with them as a couple I saw a maturity in Fred when she was Gunn that I didn't see in her with Wesley.

She always seemed more shy and "follow the leader" ish around Wesley. Her attraction to Gunn was much more apparent. Then came the kiss, and Wesley seeing them... Fred made a choice in that moment -- to kiss Gunn. That was a huge step for her, as someone who had been stuck in a hell dimension for 5 years and it showed how much she trusted Gunn.

To be honest, Cordelia had a huge part to play in Wesley's behavior towards Gunn about the whole thing. She was the one who kept getting Wesley's hopes up about Fred, without any real proof of her feelings. (Again, I say this as a Cordy fan -- she shouldn't have intervened here )

eternalfate

Yup, pretty much fans will try to twist every storyline to make their ship look perfect.
You remember the "Billy" episode? Imagine if Gunn and Wes changed places in that episode, I'm sure it'd be written as "Wes would never hurt Fred even if he was under a spell." It's just everything to make one ship look better than the other.

Just like when it came to the Professor, if the roles was reversed and Gunn supported Fred in killing the Professor and Wes was the one to talk her out of it and tell her how she will lose herself in the process, fans would see that as a true love and how Gunn is just Fred follower to support a terrible thing like that.

So pretty much you can't buy what some fans say.
Gunn loved Fred with everything and he knew that her taking a life, it doesn't matter what life it was, that she would lose herself in the process and he never wanted her to live with that.

I'd be jealous if my BF was going around kissing someone or I see a woman crushing on my man...

starryeyesxx

You're definitely right about that, people try so hard to make Gunn the bad guy for some reason... & romanticize the hell out of Wesley's obsession with Fred. His thing for her brought out the worst in him imo, with every other storyline I can understand where he's coming from, but I just hate him when it comes to Fred & Fred/Gunn

How about early Saturday afternoon for the rewatch then?

eternalfate

Crystal Clear

I think it's because viewers took a long time to get used to Gunn as a main character. He lived on the streets for so long and established in 3x03 that even though he works alongside Angel and has befriended him, there would always be a certain level of distrust there based on Gunn's upbringing (to believe that vampires are the enemy) -- so I think some viewers never really got used to the idea of Gunn becoming a love interest. They thought Wesley had more of a sensitivity about him.

That's all part of people misunderstanding Gunn and wrongly judging him as nothing more than "the muscle", like he always feared. He had a big heart.

starryeyesxx

I have the same kind of ideas about it, but maybe a little harsher & controversial

I think that people are just more comfortable seeing a moc play a side character, the muscle, the street kid, all those tropes... but struggle when it cames to seeing him as a love interest. They'd rather that role goes to the white guy

That's my opinion anyway

3pm sounds good to me