Scythe

I think this is the main reason for the 'problems' between them in Season 6. Not because she didn't feel anything for him, but because she thought that she shouldn't.

Jaime Bee

I also think she was in love with him by dead things. I think she had always been attracted to him but it took her a while to fall in love. I think she started to after Intervention. But felt she shouldn't feel this way because he didn't have a soul. That was the whole problem for her. If only Spike went and got his soul back sooner.

I love Tabularasa! It is one of my Fave episodes. I love Randy and Joan. I even enjoyed Anya and Giles together. I laugh So hard when ever I see it again.

My favorite line is Randy Giles Why didn't you just call me Horny Giles or Desperate for a shag Giles?

I love Spike and Giles thinking they are father and son. Giles was alot like Spike when he was young.

Oh and Buffy saying A vampire with a soul; How lame is that?

I love that Spike assumes he has a soul and fights evil with Buffy.

Randy and Joan are So attracted to each other.

I love the kiss at the end. It is my favorite Spuffy kiss.

Ragnarok

This is going to be fun

I agree that Buffy developed feelings for Spike in S6, but I don't believe she was ever really in love with him. Because I don't think it's possible to really love someone that you don't have any respect for. There's plenty of evidence in multiple episodes (notably Gone, Dead Things, As You Were and Normal Again) that Buffy did not respect him and in fact held him in contempt. And I look forward to making my case when those episodes come up for discussion.

I agree that she certainly didn't hate him any more. She liked him some of the time and certainly wanted and needed him. And all of you are right to say that she was very, very conflicted about her feelings and that this added to her problems.

The whole Randy/Joan vampire-with-a-soul "how lame is that" business is one of the funniest scenes in BtVS history. It's just impossible not to laugh out loud when watching it.

Cati

Can you provide specific examples please? It's impossible to refute something when I don't know what you're referring to.

So you agree that Angel was never in love with Buffy? He didn't respect her. He treated her like a child and he was the parent who had to make decisions for her.

Last question, if Buffy was never in love with Spike, then how do you explain her "still in love with Spike" quote from First Date?

sum1

No offence, but to me it's laughable to claim that Buffy didn't respect Spike in season 6. Sure, she gave him plenty awful treatment, but that was just her projecting her self-hate onto him. Self-hate that had a lot to do with the fact that she couldn't accept that her heart was in love with a creature that her mind told her was just a "soulless evil thing".

Buffy felt she shouldn't respect Spike, and at times acted accordingly, but it was blatantly obvious she did indeed respect him. Really, I can't for the life of me understand how anybody could watch season 6 and think that she didn't. Spike was the person she respected most that season, with the possible exception only of Tara and maybe Giles.

And no, I've no interest in discussing the matter in more detail. Perhaps to some this is just "interesting" discussion, but I've had too much experience with vicious rows over this sort of stuff. This is no fun for me.

Ragnarok

I'll be happy to provide specific examples in the weeks ahead as the episodes in which the events occur come up for discussion. I'm not playing coy here, really - I just want to take things as they come.

In case you or anyone else is wondering, I am not anti-B/S in the least. Nor am I anti-B/A, nor a shipper of any stripe. Really. I am not at all interested in attacking B/S. I'm aware, though, that I may see the evolution of the relationship differently than others, especially shippers, do, and I'm always interested in hearing viewpoints that are different from my own.

I think your question about Angel is very valid. I thought Buffy and Angel held very unrealistic and idealized views of each other in S1 and 2, and each of them was very much in love with the person they thought the other person to be. B/A was most interesting to me in S3, when they both started growing up a little and trying to come to terms with each other as they really were.

sum1

I'm sorry you feel that way, because I find it difficult to see how anyone could believe Buffy did respect Spike in S6. And since you and I have discussed differences of opinion on this board many times, I really don't understand why you'd think I was looking for a "vicious row". So I hope you'll reconsider and contribute your rebuttals to my opinions.

My comment that "this is going to be fun" simply means that there appears to be a number of people who aren't going to agree with me, at least initially, and that we can therefore hope for some very good give and take in the weeks ahead. You all may not change my mind and I may not change yours, and that's okay. The point is that S6 B/S is such a twisted, complicated mess that it's really almost impossible to say that one person or the other is definitively right or wrong, and so it's fun to trade opinions and argue about it. Which is kind of the point of posting on boards like this one.

sum1

That's a point on which we thorougly disagree. I've made a very serious and in-depth study of spuffy and I think that, despite all the "twisted, complicated mess", one can indeed definitively say what's correct and what's not. I think the truth about spuffy is actually a lot clearer than some people think.
Not saying you're intending to start a row. I'm sure you don't intend any harm. But I've had way too much experience with highly unpleasant rows over this sort of Spike/spuffy topic and the wounds are still raw. I wouldn't trust myself in such a debate and I expect some other people's feeling might ride high too.

Please understand, to me it feels insane for somebody to claim Buffy didn't respect Spike in season 6, insane and inflammatory (I'm sure you don't intend it to be inflammatory, it's just that's how it feels). And I very much doubt I'm the only one who feels this way. And it hits all the harder coming from a moderator. In the context of what spuffy shippers have had to deal with over the years, it feels like aggressive provocation. I know you don't intend it that way, but how it feels can still affect things.

Things used to be a lot harder for spuffy shippers, we used to be regularly given the impression that we were, in effect, somehow not allowed to ship spuffy, that the ship never really existed and that we were sick, twisted and obscene for being fans of the ship. We got plenty hell on all sides on multiple sites. It leaves us still a little sore and sensitive on some matters. Rightly or wrongly, that's the way it is and I think it should be taken into consideration in discussions like this.

Frankly, I feel this sort of debate is the sort that should be entered into very carefully or not at all. I suspect that by the time you've finished debating the topic on this thread and on future episode threads (no matter how much you work to keep the discussion friendly), well... even if open strife is avoided, I'll bet you'll have a good share of angry posters (whether or not they keep their anger to themselves). And that will not be good for the board in the long run.

And god help the board if anti-spuffy shippers join in arguing the Buffy-didn't-respect-Spike side. As in Total Shipper War.

So I don't intend to involve myself in debating the topic. I hope I don't end up giving into temptation and joining in after all. If I feel it's necessary, I may entirely avoid any episode discussion threads on which the topic is being discussed.

Ragnarok

I'm not going to defend people who attacked you or anyone else for shipping B/S. And I'm not going to put up with posters attacking other posters for their ship, whichever it may be. Should such an event occur, just report the post to me and ignore the person - I'll make sure they understand that I don't tolerate that sort of thing.

However, I'm not going to declare discussions of ideas and events in the show that are B/S-related off limits. There wouldn't be much point to having episode discussions if that were the case. And I'm not going to avoid offering my opinions, though I suspect some of them may prove unpopular. I have a thick skin, and nobody's going to be punished for disagreeing with me. Dude, if I were that petty, you'd know it by now.

Just so everyone's clear: the mod hat comes off when discussing/debating/arguing opinions and ideas, so long as the discussion remains civil and only the ideas and opinions are being argued. I'll be very disappointed if anyone is afraid to try to shoot down my opinions just because I'm a mod. That's the opposite of what I've tried to accomplish as a moderator here.

I'll admit I'm intrigued by your claim that S6 B/S is somehow cut and dried. I've never heard anyone make that claim before (in a rational way, anyway - the folks you've referred to make that claim all the time and I ignore them). So I'm going to continue to hope that we'll all have some interesting discussions ahead.

AlexEvans

Well, the beginning of the ep was somewhat disturbing. The end was depressing (and still a bit disturbing).

The middle was fun. I loved the new identities they created for themselves.

Bkrstar

Wow, this was the last ep of S6 that I enjoyed. The shot of the gang screaming at the door, the "loan shark" (hee hee hee) and all the verbal comedy -- brought me back to the good ol' days of season two a little bit.

The ending montage was beautifully done (except for the part where Buffy and Spike ate each others faces -- ick), although I grew to hate UPN for using that Michelle Branch song in every damn promo at the end of the series. To me, that song is very well vested in a specific moment of a specific episode, and there's no need to play it AGAIN and AGAIN.

Dazzling

I loved this episode.

Willow/Tara: I think this was a huge turning point for them.. Tara's discovery of Willow's actions. Not only erasing her memory of their fight but then even after telling Tara she wouldn't use magic again.. goes ahead and tries to erase not only Tara's memories but Buffy's. It was just another step towards Willow's downward spiral with magic that season. Tara leaving the house was heartbreaking but necessary for her and Willow... their relationship at this point was clearly not going well due to Willow and her magic addition.

Buffy/Spike: Buffy's denial over their kiss and saying that it meant nothing and that it was just a spell was interesting to see... espeically since at the end of the episode we once again see Buffy going after Spike and kissing him quite passionately.

Was it love on Buffy's part? No. I don't think so.. but I think Buffy did develop feelings for Spike in season 6. She denied it because she wasn't supposed to have feelings for Spike and she certainly wasn't supposed to want him.. but she did and that just fed into her mentality that she was wrong and fed into her self loathing. It was unhealthy for both.. but looking at where they were as characters in season 6 I didn't expect them to be all about hearts and flowers.

I loved the comedy in this episode. Giles and Spike thinking they were father and son.

Giles: "Older brother?"
Spike: "Father.. God how I must hate you."

Spike: "Randy Giles?! Why not call me horny Giles or desperate for a shag Giles.. I knew there was a reason I hated you!"

That awkard hug they shared.



Giles and Anya thinking they were engaged.. and Anya's trouble with bunnies.

Xander fainting when Buffy discovers she's a "Super hero or something."

Willow saying she thinks she's gay and Dawn's expression when she says this.

"Ready Randy."
"Ready Joan"

Spike: I must be a noble vampire. I'm a vampire with a soul.
Buffy: A vampire with a soul.. how lame is that.



I always found it interesting that even without his memory Spike assumed he was human and then when finding out he was a vampire assumed he was a vampire with a soul.

And I love the montage at the end. Especially the kiss at the end. My favorite Spike and Buffy kiss.

Ragnarok

I agree with you, Dazzling. Although I have to say I eventually ran out of patience with Buffy. I cut her a lot of slack in the first half of the season. She was in terrible shape, through no fault of her own really, and while I think her decision to not tell any of her friends what they'd done to her was wrong, she was well-motivated. I didn't have any trouble believing she was hanging on by a thread, and a drowning person has no conscience.

By the time Gone came around, though, she was starting to find an equilibrium. Even though she was still very unhappy, she appeared to be stable enough that she ought to have been more responsible in her treatment of the people around her.

I think the real turning point in Willow and Tara's relationship happened earlier, though - in All The Way. Once Willow erased Tara's memory of their fight, she crossed a line and I no longer had any sympathy for her. It was only a matter of time until she got caught and Tara left her, and I was completely on Tara's side in that.

Dazzling

I agree my patience would run thin with Buffy from time to time in season 6.. while I always find it interesting to see these characters at their darkest moments and I certainly believe Buffy had a right to feel the way she felt.. there were times when I felt Buffy could have behaved differently.

I also agree about All the Way. That was the first episode where I really saw the first true rift in the Tara/Willow relationship.. but I feel that TR was the breaking point for the two.

Jaime Bee

This episode has everything I love about Buffy. Spuffy comedy drama and bittersweet ending. I love the end So much just cause of Spuffy making out but that mixed in with the montage of the other's to Goodbye To You is So amazing to me.

forever young

I adore this episode. Abo****ely one of my faves. I loved season six, and this was probably my fave ep of it.