secretk

Now to be fair OTH would have never been the Emmy worthy type of show, did not have that type of casting or writing but it could have been much better than it ended up being.

Granted at this point we have seen much more from both Amy and Ephram and they were developed better so we could see this in the scene.

So creepy and so ironic because with his creepiness and lack of professionalism he ruined his own thing. Peyton was supposed to be the main female character, fans were supposed to like her the most out of the 3 girls in the show and the truth is she is not. And I do think that Monster is to blame here. He did not write her that compelling for a lot of people including me. And if people sometimes have issues with Lucas is mostly because of moronic things Monster thought is OK for Lucas to do. Monster ruined his OTP on his own. Yes the fans did blow up things out of proportion but it is not like he did not give them reasons as well. He cared more about his obsession than his show and the story he was supposed to tell …

jediwands

Exactly. The show was never constructed to be award winning, not like Everwood and Felicity. That is why both Everwood and Felicity only lasted 4 seasons. They were not soapy enough and had way too much quality… the WB and CW strived for teen soaps in every way during that 90s/early 2000s time period and if you didn’t fit this formula you were gone sooner rather than later.

Still, OTH had potential to be way better than it was if the show’s creator actually bothered to care about the show instead of the women involved in the show.

Exactly… when Ephram and Amy had their issues at least they were built on a solid foundation so whatever was thrown their way worked.

Yes, I was so opposite. Lucas and Peyton were my favorites even so. I never connect with bad boy and bad girl characters unless the writing and acting is strong and it wasn’t for Nathan in both respects and with Brooke there was good acting but the writing failed her too. But see the target audience was middle school and high school teens mostly so they bought it a lot better. Unless you’re Anna, who is wise beyond her years and knew what was going on and didn’t appreciate most of what a lot of fans liked.

But I smiled widely after Chad and Hilarie left because the show was destroyed after their departure. Even endless fans of Brooke and Brooke/Lucas admitted the show was destroyed after Chad and Hilarie as Lucas and Peyton left because the show was never the same. Seasons 7-9 were awful (like TERRIBLE trash) and it was because Lucas and Peyton were not around anymore. The show never recovered. If the show worked better without them or Lucas and Peyton sucked as individual characters the show should have sailed into beautiful content and essence once they left. It did not. The only reason why it lasted three more seasons is because the quality went even lower and it got even more embarrassing, which is exactly what the WB and CW wanted.

secretk

It is a good point that maybe WB/especially CW were looking for the teen soaps shows .

Yes and we are not talking something big like making it Everwood like. We are talking about exploring a bit more the characters thus not needing to have some useless/ridiculous stories .

They did start as friends and had solid friendship foundation. Plus their struggles were I believe more realistic and were done much more authentically. And like we have said luckily for us there was only 1 soapy element - the pregnancy. Plus the acting. That plays difference as well.

I see what you mean because I also do not connect with bad boys/girls and I cannot say I connected with Brooke. With Nathan there was to some extent but not thanks to the writing or acting . It was mostly the story with the abusive father because my mother has somewhat such experience and she does not talk a lot about it. However a lot of the Nathan’s backstory was done in my head based on my own research (I was interested because of my mother so I have read a lot about it) and not thanks to Monster.

I think Monster’s issues were that he did not explore Peyton enough as a character. She was too closed off to a point where as a viewer you have to speculate a lot to know what is going on. You definitely got what was in her head but to be honest I did not. Mostly because of the writing and acting but Peyton as a character was too ambiguous for me to connect to her. I do respect people wanting to be closed off but I also know that this comes also with a bit of isolation. Not everyone would connect to you and not everyone would have the patience to go through your walls to connect with you.

I did connect with Lucas actually. I started having issues with him in Season 5 but who can blame us. He had some pretty awful moments in that season . And maybe at this point Monster was also frustrated with Chad because he wrote Lucas sometimes very off putting. Like it was very difficult to find explanation for some of his behaviour. You can if you really start thinking about it, but it was not done well.

The Pilot of the show I believe was good and it tells you what the show is about well enough. It was two major things - Leyton and their story and Lucas/Nathan overcoming their hate and animosity and becoming real brothers. Without Lucas both of those points are gone. For me personally Lucas has always been the main character of OTH - the soul of the show.

I remember when they decided to leave I was already not watching the show (I stopped episode 4/5 of Season 6). I did read why they were leaving though and it did not take long for the story to come out. I remember wondering at the fans upset with Hilarie leaving. In my mind I was like no matter how much you enjoy her character or Leyton, you have to care more about Hilarie and how she feels. It was obvious she did not feel great at that set and she deserved to leave a toxic work without being blamed or chastised about it. And I admired Chad for leaving too because to me it was clear he did not want to support that work environment as well. Now I am not saying that Joy, James, Sophia are bad people for staying. Everyone has their own reasons but I did not like that fans would badmouth Hilarie for leaving.

jediwands

That’s exactly what both networks were looking for. It is why both Everwood and Felicity were ignored mostly. They didn’t know what to do with their quality.

I truly think the target audience simply wanted bad boys and bad girls on the screen so flocked to Brooke and Nathan. Brooke wasn’t fleshed out as a character either. We had no idea what her family situation was until way later. Yet people thought Brooke and all of her bad behavior was OK. It was a demonstration of the younger audience just not caring and wanting the teen soapy stuff.

Monster had a good premise: Basketball, brothers who share a horrible father and the one brother ending up with the brother’s previous GF. Those were the main themes. Monster didn’t care about fleshing anything out.

The last three seasons were an absolute joke. The heart and soul of the show was gone when Chad and Hilarie left. Monster even made snide remarks IN THE WRITING IN EPISODES because even he understood the show was unrecognizable and done. I had a guy friend who I grew up with, and he watched the series. He even admitted he loved soapy teen soaps. By around 7.3 he was GONE. He’s like no Lucas and Peyton and no show. If you read episode reviews on the OTH Board there’s literally honest Brooke Stan’s and Brucas Stan’s who are like the show is done and it’s because Lucas and Peyton aren’t on the screen anymore. They knew it and admitted as much. Literally, I would read the S7, S8, S9 reviews just to hear more and more Brooke fans and Brooke and Lucas fans admit what happened to the show once Lucas and Peyton left the screen. Every episode discussion more and more people joined the party called honesty.

Thankfully Everwood never had to deal with something like this.

secretk

Seems they wanted to target only teens as audience . I would say same for Roswell. It is clear WB had no idea what to do with that show or how to promote it properly ...

Maybe indeed those fans wanted the bod boy/girl vibe. I remember that the fans that liked Brucas in a Bulgarian forum also liked Kate/Sawyer from Lost and specifically liked Sawyer and I was left with the impression that it was because he was a bad boy too.

Monster never gave explanation on why Brooke did the BS she did. I really am amazed at the imagination of some people that found a way to excuse her behaviour honestly. I don't know based on what they had those ideas because in the first 4 seasons there was almost 0 mention about Brooke's family or background or upbringing.

I don't know if he did not care or he did not know how or both. He also busy being a creep. He should have spent his time writing instead of being obsessed and creeping the cast.

This is the other thing. Monster instead of acknowledging that losing Chad/Hilarie is huge blow to the show and trying to reinvent the wheel, he doubled down and tried to use the show to take digs at them. He ruined his own show. It was his doing but I am sure he will never admit this.

jediwands

Oh yes, it’s what they wanted. I mean, the CW even wanted OTH over Everwood because the network craved teen soap and the soapier the better. I remember when it all went down.

Sawyer and Kate definitely had people loving the bad boy thing. Which is why I never liked them. They made me sick, actually. Sawyer got better around Juliet.

Brooke Stans explained her behavior away constantly and it made no sense but they truly believed it did.

Well, he cared enough not to destroy Lucas and Peyton. He refused to go Brucas in any long-term fashion. But other than that his being a creepy monster was way more important to him than being a hard-working showrunner and creator making sure the show thrived.

He took CONSTANT digs. He was like an 8 year old boy throwing a tantrum since he didn’t get his way.

Jerry D

I always thought that Monster had an unhealthy obsession with Hilarie. You could really see it when he played that character on the show.

Jerry D

I think one important thing in Ephram and Amy’s relationship is that no matter what they went through together or individually, they always remained friends, and they always were in each other’s lives. To be sure, there were times when they were estranged, and times when they hurt each other, and there were times when they were temporarily romantically involved with other people, but they never lost touch with one another, and you always knew that deep down, they still loved and cared about one another.

I often compare Ephram and Amy to Dawson and Joey, and to me, the major difference between the two couples is that Dawson and Joey’s friendship effectively ended at the end of Season Two, and all their “soulmate” declarations rang increasingly hollow as the seasons wore on, but throughout all the seasons of Everwood, there was never any doubt that Ephram and Amy were soulmates, and there was also never any doubt that they loved each other and would make their way back to each other. It probably also helped that Ephram’s best friend was Bright, Amy’s brother, so he couldn’t win her heart away from Ephram like Pacey won Joey’s heart away from Dawson! For me personally, the writers of Dawson’s Creek destroyed everything I loved about Dawson and Joey over the years to the point where I didn’t care about them any more, but the writers of Everwood never did that with Ephram and Amy, and so I loved them and rooted for them right up until the very end.

I attribute all that not only to the superior writing on Everwood, but also to the great acting ability of Emily and Greg, who always had chemistry together, unlike James and Katie, who had great chemistry together in the early seasons of Dawson’s Creek, but who had absolutely no chemistry together in the later seasons of the show. I’ve never seen so much chemistry between two actors as I saw between Greg and Emily, and that chemistry kept me hooked throughout the run of the show.

jediwands

That’s so true, Jerry. He absolutely did. He even created his own character on the show and of course had his character alone with Hilarie/Peyton. It was so bizarre and creepy. I am convinced he wrote certain storylines and moments based on how he was feeling about Hilarie on any given day. The last 3 seasons his rage over Hilarie being released from his dirty paws was so obvious as he inserted personal digs directed at Peyton in order to get through the anger.

Jerry D

He really was a creep. I also remember at the beginning of Season Five when he had a character call Haley/Bethany Joy "Fat", which caused the fight that got Nathan thrown through plate glass window, which couldn't be further from the truth.

jediwands

^ I edited that last post due to errors. Sorry you read the unedited version!

That is so well said.

Everwood had it all, superior acting, writing, grounded believability.

I think about how Ephram and Amy were even originally constructed… Amy was with a guy who was essentially slowly dying from a tragic accident that affected his brain. Ephram and Amy grow close and even kiss while Amy is technically still with Colin. When you think about it… did anyone even comment on this? No, because it was written in such a compelling way. You cheered for Ephram to go in for that kiss in the mines on that school trip. We later find out how Amy and Colin were never real and like Big Bird but even so before then the vast majority of the fandom pulled for Ephram and Amy because their story was precious with an immediate foundation and believably all thanks to Greg Berlanti, Greg and Emily.

secretk

Yep and to be fair CW does have quite a few soapy shows.

I think people that liked Kate and Jack also liked Sawyer and Juliet. At least this is how it was in the Bulgarian forum I was reading back then. However those that liked Sawyer and Kate they hated Jack .

Yep .

I would say he cared enough to still make them end game. He did not destroy them but I would not say he did not taint them with all the Season 5 crap he pulled. He did ruin them a bit but luckily not enough to complete kill them and their story. He definitely spent more energy on his creepy obsession than on making sure his show and his couple are getting the best stories...

Which is so unprofessional and disgusting.

secretk

He so did! He was creepy!

secretk

I agree with this. Ephram and Amy were always friends and always cared about each other. They might have been times like you said where they might have been with other people or a bit estranged from each other, but there was never a case where they did not care about each other and did not want to help each other. There was mutual respect there.

They were also not in say a friend group where they date friends from the same group. The people Amy and Ephram temporarily dated were not people from their every day life. They came and went. There was no lingering or back and forth between them. It was not a story of will they or won't they, it was a story of when they will get together.

They also had much better buildup. Their story developed very organically throughout the first 2 seasons to reach the point where they got together. It was neither rushed nor delayed too much. It was the right time for them to be together.

jediwands

That is what they were going for. The CW was going for even more obvious teen soap too. OTH’s ratings were so much lower than Everwood’s ratings. It was a joke. But the CW still took OTH because of flavor and target audience.

The CW ironically never got respectable until Berlanti started with the Superhero Shows and stuff like Nancy Drew entered the picture.

That’s exactly it. And the funny part is those that liked Kate/Jack and Sawyer/Juliet actually… supported the real and long-lasting pairings. LOL. Sawyer and Kate never had a prayer to last. I will never forget early series Sawyer basically wouldn’t give back a woman’s asthma medication unless Kate kissed him. Who does that? He was scum back then and anyone that found his actions hot I don’t even know what to say. Sawyer turned into a decent and kind man when he was with Juliet. I remember how some Sawyer and Kate fans thought Sawyer went “soft” and “weak” after falling for Juliet. No people, it was called maturity, kindness and decency. I guess they didn’t like it. LOL.

No idea what he was doing in S5. I hate that season more than most people.

What’s so ridiculous is everyone knew what he was doing. We didn’t even know he was a true monster then but it was still obvious how hurt and pissed he was that Chad and Hilarie ran out the door.