everwoodfan52

I actually didn't mind the Hoffmans. They were very loving grandparents that obviously were very attentive and devoted to Ephram and Delia. I agree that they should have been invited. I would have been climbing the walls if I weren't able to visit my grandchildren.

Ephram was a totally different person with Jacob. He was happy, smiling, polite.

This was very sweet. Ruth was just as tough as Edna...but in a different way. They definitely developed an understand and it was all because of sweet Delia.

.

I totally agree with this. Ephram really blew it. He should have kept his mouth shut about Colin.
I don't like the way Jabob talked to Andy in front of Ephram..but I really can't fault Jacob for wanting Ephram to be happy. I also don't blame him for resenting Andy. If someone mistreated my daughter like Andy did and neglected my grandchildren...I would probably be apprehensive about that person raising them alone.
I loved that scene...even if Bright looked like a Condom.

I was really upset with Andy for not letting Ephram go to the party. He should have realized how necessary it was for Ephram to have some kind of a social life. Andy should have been thrilled that Ephram had the desire to go out.

'Tos

I agree with most of that, but I do think Jacob (and Ruth to a lesser extent) came to Everwood to take Ephram home with them. They came there with that goal. And Jacob never brings Andy into the conversation, which I think is inexcusable. I do understand Jacob's pain and wanting Ephram to be happy, but to basically undermine a father and to not let him have a say in where Ephram should go is going too far. Yeah, not a Jacob fan at all here. But I do see what you and Betty are saying about not exactly faulting Jacob or Ruth for their attitudes or their thoughts. I just think their actions push the line. I think Jacob, from the second he walked in that house, was doing what he could to undermine Andy and get Ephram to come. Saying that, Jacob didn't really have to try all that hard, did he? And that does say something about how bad Andy/Ephram were at that point, so yeah...can't blame Jacob for trying, I'll just never like it.

everwoodfan52

Yes, I see your points here, 'Tos. I'm not sure that the Hoffmans came to Everwood for the specific reason of taking Ephram back. I do think that they had this in the back of their mind and waited to see how miserable Ephram was before they seized the opportunity to offer him a home with them in New York. Yes, Jacob and Ruth should have had a discussion with Andy first. Maybe then they would have seen how hard Andy was trying. Maybe they could have worked out a visitation plan that would satisfy everyone.

Rolfi Cole

I think it's easy to take Andy's side because of him being a big character in this show, but the fact of the matter is that Andy before Everwood is a person we dont get a really big insight to. I dont think Jacob even consider him as Ephram's father at all, and he sure had right to do so because at that time Andy never acted like a father should. I have no personal vendetta against Andy but if I was Jacob in that situation I would have done exactly the same, do everything in my power to get Ephram away from him. It was enough for Jacob to see Andy take away Julia from him and then treat her bad, because if there is one thing we all can agree on then it is that Andy was never a good husband to Julia. For Jacob to possibly see the same happen with Ephram is understandable something he would fight against. Jacob treated Andy just the way that Andy had treated Ephram, like he didnt exist. The things that the Hoffman did really showed me that they cared for their grandchildrens, they didnt close their eyes and hoped that Andy had changed but they went there and made sure that they were okey. I also had the impression that Andy had no interest in them at all, he wasnt pleasently surprised when they came and he already assumed they were there for the wrong reasons. I think his way of treating them didnt make it easier for them to confront him with what they felt like. In which scenes do you feel like he is out of limb with how he treats Andy in front of Ephram??

'Tos

I definitely see why. I don't blame Jacob at all. I just don't think he cared to see if Andy was better or not, he was looking at all the negatives. And you point out well why he doesn't want to see any progress. Why should he? It's not like Andy has given him any reasons to believe he'd be a good father or ever care about his son.

But I do think it shows a certain lack of caring about Ephram from Jacob too. Hold on, hold on. Hear me out! He does care, obviously, he wants Ephram to be better. But he doesn't even bother to notice that Ephram is starting doing better already. He's too busy using Ephram as a tool against Andy. I understand why he's being blind to the positives, but it's definitely a problem that he can't even bring himself to notice that Ephram has improved.

So, yeah, I agree with everything you said and I'd do the same thing as Jacob just like you would, but I don't think that makes him right exactly, because I do feel that Jacob has tunnel vision. He's so busy looking at how awful Andy is, he's not even noticing how changed his own grandson is or how Ephram is reacting out of pure emotion towards Andy or Amy in this episode (like Ephram would ever consider leaving Amy if he wasn't so emotional in these episodes). I guess it's because Jacob is acting purely out of emotion too. Which he should be and we all would be too. But he does show at the end of episode 10 that emotional thinking can be a little rash, because he does end up seeing some of the changes Andy has gone through, and starts noticing the changes Ephram has gone through too.

I'll have to watch the episode again if you're still interested. I forgot all about this thread until I wanted to get more Everwood stuff on the front page. *bad 'Tos, bad!*

everwoodfan52

Here's one example, Rolfi.

'Tos

Absolutely. Thanks, Betty! Especially because Ephram is totally baiting Andy there. He doesn't want to look for a teacher anymore than Andy does, he's just being smart for the sake of getting under Andy's skin in front of Jacob. I pulled that trick many a time, so I know it well.

Taryn74

Not to mention the times he openly mocked Andy to Ephram.

And from what Ephram said to Andy after he came in from the party, Jacob got his point across, planted those little seeds of disrespect exactly like he planned -

break the window

Ephram in early season one was a jerk! I understand that he was so broken over Julia dying. And then the massive move from New York to Colorado without any explanation why. And then he's forced to take direction from a guy who has never even sat through an entire meal without being on the phone or an argument starting.

But Ephram took that leap and went into a direction that wasn't fair to anyone. He never thought how much it hurt Andy, he never thought of Andy's feelings period. But how much it hurt Delia. Delia had so much faith in her father that everything would be okay and she needed her big brother. And all he did was find a new reason to piss Andy off before Andy finally snapped and grounded Ephram. And then with the Jacob stuff, that just irritated me. He had no right to do what he did.

And then again, Andy understood Ephram's actions and let him off the hook, slightly. Something I don't know if he should've done. But we all know the reason why.

'Tos

Yes! Good finds. And ooh, that's a good chronology. I didn't even notice when I watched that Ephram being that overt in using what Jacob sets up.

Patricia, that's a good point about Delia. I like that when Ephram does leave Everwood in S3 and Delia asks if she should be mad at Andy too, or if he's that bad, Ephram defends him and says he's a great dad. It shows how far Ephram has come, to be mad at his dad, but also makes sure that Delia won't be.

Alexa

109:
Not my favorite episode ever, the grandparents annoyed me. I wasn't sure why Edna was so rude to Delia's grandma. IMO It wasnt really her place to talk down to her, Edna is not her family.

Good for Colin's parents telling Amy to leave the hospital. She really was putting a lot of pressure on him and his recovery.

Amy telling Ephram to move on was harsh but I kind of understand why she was feeling frustrated. Her and Ephram had just kissed and it probably felt like he was just trying push Colin out of the picture.

jediwands

So true about Edna!

Colin’s parents had every right telling Amy to leave. Honestly, it was so unhealthy for Amy to be there all by herself in the first place. She needed to get out of there for her own mental health.

Yes, Amy was feeling so conflicted during this time period. I understand what she was feeling as well. I think the kiss overwhelmed her because she knew it was real and she felt guilt and confusion as a result.