[secretk]

Originally Posted by everwoodfan52 (View Post) Yes, this guy was honest and constructive, but he didn't offer Ephram any hope. He didn't teill him to work harder...but just to give it up and concentrate on his vocabulary.

He didn't sugarcoat it for sure. He was blunt for sure, but his words were not different than first Andy's speech. I think that both of them were trying to offer Ephram's backup plan. I do know that this could sometimes get interpreted differently. It's a fine line for sure. Did Andy want to tell Ephram that he wasn't good enough or he wanted him to have backup plan? I am sure that he wanted the latter, but Ephram definitely thought of the first one.

The same goes for this guy. He said something that was true. When you are taught since young age of something wrong it's really hard to correct it. It was not about Ephram not being able to play. It was about his wrong habits. Habits that Ephram had learnt since young age. Things that he had almost encoded in him. That's really difficult to correct because to him it's like second nature. What he said about posture is also very true. That's something that you learn very early on and it's really difficult to correct such thing if you've used to do this for most of your life.

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by everwoodfan52 (View Post) Love your commentaries, Jerry! Wish I could write as well!

Aww, thanks Betty! It felt so good to write an episode commentary about my favorite show of all time again.

Originally Posted by everwoodfan52 (View Post) I believe that Harold and Andy...for all the bickering, sarcasm, somewhat jealousy..are soul mates. These two get each other and have real affection and caring for one another. Neither one would steer the other wrong.

Absolutely. Some of Harold's remarks would be considered really mean-spirited and hurtful if they came from anyone else other than Harold, like when he told Andy that he had a lot more experience with his son hating him "for good reason" than he did, but from Harold it just sounds funny, and in his own way, affectionate.

Originally Posted by everwoodfan52 (View Post) What was so hurtful lhere is that Harold made it soooooooooooooo obvious that his attention was more toward Amy. Nothing subtle about it! Poor Bright understood it and just accepted it.

Oh I know. I do think that parents can have a favorite child, but Harold made it so obvious that he favored Amy over Bright. After my father died, one of my sisters made a really hurtful remark to me that she was my mother's favorite and my other sister was my father's favorite, and maybe it was true, but I never got any overt impression from my parents that they favored my sisters over me. My sisters are very different from me. I tend to be sensitive and sentimental, where they tend to be "tough" and not very nice, at least to me. Needless to say, I'm not very close to my sisters.

Originally Posted by everwoodfan52 (View Post) I admit that first season Bright was not my favorite and I really didn't care for him too much because of my love for Ephram. But...this Bright could teach even Ephram a thing or two about strength and integrity.

I hated Bright in Season One because of the way he treated Ephram. I liked how his character changed and evolved though and how him and Ephram became good friends. One thing I didn't like though was how the show sometimes used him purely for comic relief as a stereotypical dumb jock.

Originally Posted by everwoodfan52 (View Post) I hate what the show did to Laynie. It is like a breath of fresh air when she appears in a scene. What a waste of a character and potential plot lines.

I hated what the show did to Laynie too. She was such a great character and Nora Zehetner was a wonderful actress, but they did hardly anything with her is Season Two, and then they wrote her off the show. I had always wished that her and Ephram had gotten into a romantic relationship to see how Amy would react, and Season Two would have been the perfect time for that to happen, but instead we got Ephram and Madison. I always felt that Hannah was introduced as a substitute Laynie to fill the role of Amy's best friend, but i never found Hannah to be as interesting or intriguing a character as Laynie was.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) I’m a little rusty at writing episode commentaries, so please be kind. It was so wonderful to watch this incredibly well acted and well written show again after all this time. Every single second of every single scene spoke to my heart, as I got to see the characters I loved so much interacting again. This episode really showcased the characters so well, and I especially liked Andy and Harold’s interaction as you could see the mutual caring and respect that they had for each other underneath the bantering insults that had become their trademark. Ultimately, they gave each other good advice as Andy was still feeling guilty about Colin’s death and he was afraid to face the judgmental citizens of Everwood, and Harold realized that he had made a major mistake with his son. I loved the scene in the gym between Ephram and Amy as they talked about their fathers’ interest in their academic future, but at this point, Amy was still too wrapped up in her grief and depression to interact much with anyone, and this became the overarching theme of not only this episode but in future episodes in Season Two. It was so sad seeing Amy lose interest in everything, and it was equally sad that Harold refused to see the signs that his daughter was suffering from severe depression due to Colin’s death, and he even ignored Rose, who did see those signs. I thought that this show really depicted grief and depression very well, and Emily Van Camp did an incredible job in showing how lost and disengaged Amy had become. The disparity between how Harold treated Amy versus how Harold treated Bright was really illustrated in this episode because it was so obvious that Amy was Harold’s favorite because she was so much like him, and she had many of the same interests that he had, but he took little interest in anything that Bright was doing because he felt that all he had going for him was football. I thought that Bright was completely correct when he told Harold and Rose that everything was always about Amy when they confronted him about being kicked off the football team. I thought that Harold was unspeakably cruel when he told Bright that he wasn’t smart enough to get into college without football, and although he somewhat redeemed himself at the end of the episode, in some ways, there was simply a chasm between Harold and Bright that could never be bridged. I liked seeing how there were more layers to Bright beyond the dumb jock stereotype in this episode as he refused to use Colin’s death as a ploy to try and get back on the football team despite his coach and even his father encouraging him to do so, and it showed he had integrity. I did laugh when he only noticed one of the cheerleaders because she was, as Amy put it, “stacked,” and I cracked up when Bright said “I can’t help it if I’m shallow. It’s how God made me!” One hallmark of this show was the warm, witty, and subtle humor that served as an undercurrent beneath all the drama, and this was really showcased in scenes like that and in the scenes between Andy and Harold and Andy and Ephram. It was so different seeing Kristen Bell playing a shallow, vain and spoiled teenager who was more concerned about looking good than she was about her health, and I thought that her mother was equally vain and shallow for allowing her daughter to get breast implants at the age of 17. I thought that Stacey and her mother were so cruel and so wrong to make a cutting remark to Andy about how they were discounting his opinion due to Colin’s death, and I hated seeing Andy look so sad and hurt when they said that. I was really happy though that after talking to Harold, Andy stood up to both of them and made them listen and respect the medical advice that he was giving them. One key scene that illustrated how much respect Harold had for Andy was when he refused to give a second opinion to Stacey and her mother when they arrogantly discounted Andy’s diagnosis and advise. I really seeing Laynie in this episode, but I could also see that her character was being marginalized and she left the show later in Season Two. I liked Ephram and Andy’s scenes in this episode and it was amusing to see Andy’s well-intentioned but overbearing attempts to help Ephram get a plan together for college. I did think that Ephram was completely wrong to lash out at Andy due to his disappointment after the Julliard representative had critiqued his talent so harshly, and Ephram, as we saw throughout this series, could often direct some really cruel and nasty remarks toward his father, and in this case, nothing he said was true. I was happy that Andy saw through Ephram’s nasty meltdown and harsh words toward him and he realized that Ephram’s anger came from feeling that his future in music was being taken away from him, and he took charge and encouraged Ephram to forget about what that representative had said and practice, practice, practice, and I was glad that Ephram did just that. Overall, I really enjoyed this episode and it brought back so many reminders of how unique and wonderful Everwood was.

Excellent review, Jerry! Love all your points. So true about Laynie being marginalized. It was obvious what they were already deciding to do with Laynie. A lot of people believe Laynie was ditched for Hannah but I don't believe that to be the case. I think the second Colin died, the writers intentionally were distancing the two families from the Hart's. Laynie was essentially expendable. I guess they didn't see Amy and Laynie as close friends important enough which I will never agree with. Amy and Laynie made complete sense as friends. Unfortunately, I can't say the same thing about Amy and Hannah.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by secretk (View Post) That part of the story is written great. The way Amy's depression is shown is for me perfect. And the way Emily plays it also. The way her parents react is something different though I'm guessing not completely unrealistic as there are a lot of people who don't really understand depression.

Unfortunately, the way people react is not completely unrealistic. I have a friend/co-worker who sees patients daily down at the University of Minnesota. She mostly sees people with anxiety, depression, and bipolar. A few other conditions but that's her specialty. Her specialty is actually depression over anything else. She's an expert in this area. She constantly talks about having more difficulty reaching the loved ones of the patients over anything else.

Exactly! Harold favored Amy because he had big plans in general and she was able to fulfill them unlike Bright. When Amy got depressed she jeopardized his plans basically. But I also think that he didn't want to admit that Amy had problems. It was like pride issue for him.

For sure. I think Colin was originally part of the plan too. So it's like when Colin died, it was actually the start of Harold's plan crumbling. He didn't realize it at the time, but the second his daughter suffered from depression, the reality hit that his plan was failing. He couldn't deal with this reality. It's also why initially he was so against Ephram. He claims it was the purple hair and the son of the arrogant doctor who was a threat. That's part of it, but another part is Ephram represented another threat to take away that plan from Harold and it made him nervous.

Oh totally in Ephram's personality to react that way. I completely agree. I just didn't find the guy that cruel because he was honest. I also would have found it unrealistic for someone to get into Julliard without doing the hard work you know. It just wouldn't make sense.

Totally agree.

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) Excellent review, Jerry! Love all your points. So true about Laynie being marginalized. It was obvious what they were already deciding to do with Laynie. A lot of people believe Laynie was ditched for Hannah but I don't believe that to be the case. I think the second Colin died, the writers intentionally were distancing the two families from the Hart's. Laynie was essentially expendable. I guess they didn't see Amy and Laynie as close friends important enough which I will never agree with. Amy and Laynie made complete sense as friends. Unfortunately, I can't say the same thing about Amy and Hannah.

Thanks Michelle! I completely agree that they were distancing the Brown's and the Abbott's from the Hart's, and it was a shame that Laynie was basically tossed aside on the show. I completely agree that Amy's friendship with Laynie seemed natural and realistic but Amy's friendship with Hannah always seemed forced, and I found Hannah to be a rather insipid character.

[secretk]

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) Unfortunately, the way people react is not completely unrealistic. I have a friend/co-worker who sees patients daily down at the University of Minnesota. She mostly sees people with anxiety, depression, and bipolar. A few other conditions but that's her specialty. Her specialty is actually depression over anything else. She's an expert in this area. She constantly talks about having more difficulty reaching the loved ones of the patients over anything else.

True. I don't want to get into details now, but I have been first witness of people reacting like Harold in cases like that. It does happen in real life.

For sure. I think Colin was originally part of the plan too. So it's like when Colin died, it was actually the start of Harold's plan crumbling. He didn't realize it at the time, but the second his daughter suffered from depression, the reality hit that his plan was failing. He couldn't deal with this reality. It's also why initially he was so against Ephram. He claims it was the purple hair and the son of the arrogant doctor who was a threat. That's part of it, but another part is Ephram represented another threat to take away that plan from Harold and it made him nervous.

Interesting observation! I hadn't seen it from that angle.

[jediwands]

^^ Yes, it totally happens in real life. It was realistic on the show.

Yes, Harold's view of Ephram was way bigger than the purple-haired boy of the doctor that annoyed him. I think that's why the scene between Harold and Amy on Thanksgiving was so profound. Harold telling Amy she needed to make a decision. You could also tell Harold was warming up to Ephram somewhat back then too. I don't think Harold at that time thought Amy would turn her back on Colin but naturally you could tell Harold was starting to see things pretty clearly even if his "plans" for Amy were still there.

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) Thanks Michelle! I completely agree that they were distancing the Brown's and the Abbott's from the Hart's, and it was a shame that Laynie was basically tossed aside on the show. I completely agree that Amy's friendship with Laynie seemed natural and realistic but Amy's friendship with Hannah always seemed forced, and I found Hannah to be a rather insipid character.

Jerry, did you know originally the character of Hannah was going to be the single white female type? I was regularly lurking/posting on Fanbolt spoilers back in the day and when the sides came out for the character of Hannah, originally it showed her as this dark, obsessive person who would cling to Amy and try to take over her life. We were floored. Shortly after all of us wrapped our brains around this reality (several days) new sides came out describing Hannah as this shy, conservative Christian who would strike up a friendship with Amy.

But initially she was going to be really dark, and her part would be short-term.

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) ^^ Yes, it totally happens in real life. It was realistic on the show. Yes, Harold's view of Ephram was way bigger than the purple-haired boy of the doctor that annoyed him. I think that's why the scene between Harold and Amy on Thanksgiving was so profound. Harold telling Amy she needed to make a decision. You could also tell Harold was warming up to Ephram somewhat back then too. I don't think Harold at that time thought Amy would turn her back on Colin but naturally you could tell Harold was starting to see things pretty clearly even if his "plans" for Amy were still there.

Excellent observations, Michelle and Koni. Both Harold and Amy were very structured people and I could understand why Harold didn't want to acknowledge anything that didn't fit in with his plans for Amy's future, plus he didn't want to acknowledge that his "perfect" daughter had something seriously wrong with her. We saw later how he harshly lashed out at Andy when Andy prescribed medication to help Amy with her depression, and he never really acknowledged or accepted that Amy was deeply depressed and that she would need medication to aid in her recovery.

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) Jerry, did you know originally the character of Hannah was going to be the single white female type? I was regularly lurking/posting on Fanbolt spoilers back in the day and when the sides came out for the character of Hannah, originally it showed her as this dark, obsessive person who would cling to Amy and try to take over her life. We were floored. Shortly after all of us wrapped our brains around this reality (several days) new sides came out describing Hannah as this shy, conservative Christian who would strike up a friendship with Amy. But initially she was going to be really dark, and her part would be short-term.

Wow, I never knew that Michelle! That would have been quite the story, but so much of since Season Two was so dark anyway, I'm glad they didn't go there with Hannah's character.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) Excellent observations, Michelle and Koni. Both Harold and Amy were very structured people and I could understand why Harold didn't want to acknowledge anything that didn't fit in with his plans for Amy's future, plus he didn't want to acknowledge that his "perfect" daughter had something seriously wrong with her. We saw later how he harshly lashed out at Andy when Andy prescribed medication to help Amy with her depression, and he never really acknowledged or accepted that Amy was deeply depressed and that she would need medication to aid in her recovery.

It was really sad when he lashed out at Andy. Even more sad that Amy had to go to Andy and not her own father or Grandmother.

Harold, in general was a loving, caring father but he also picked really bad times to turn his back on his children. He treated Bright like crap for such a long stretch of time when Bright would screw up. He acted like he wasn't worthy of a father at times, it was so bad. Turning his back on Amy when she was at her lowest with the depression as well. It's ironic that Harold was like this when you compare Andy as a father. He was a horrible father in New York but completely changed when they moved to Everwood. Even with the gross Madison disaster, Andy made so many mistakes with that situation as we know. But we could never, not even for a second, think he was doing that out of spite. He tried to make the situation go away because he loved Ephram and wanted the best for him. His love and loyalty went overboard in this case but he still made those mistakes out of love. I have to wonder how Harold would have reacted if Bright would have gotten Madison or someone like her pregnant.

Wow, I never knew that Michelle! That would have been quite the story, but so much of since Season Two was so dark anyway, I'm glad they didn't go there with Hannah's character.

Yes! I will never forget when those sides came out. There was someone over there by the name of Choirmom who would ingest endless coffee, stay up for hours and type up every side we received. She was dedicated and we received so many spoilers as a result. I will never forget when she introduced this single white female character in Hannah. We were all freaking out! But then a few days later she said the character's description had changed... then the Ephram/Amy fans were nervous that Hannah will still somehow come between Ephram/Amy and a triangle would develop. Some people wanted Hannah dark so we didn't have to worry about a triangle and Ephram/Hannah. Then when the future sides came in about Hannah and Bright starting to get closer and the writing was on the wall about them getting together romantically, everyone breathed a sigh of relief. The reactions were fun. 95% of us were Ephram/Amy fans over there. The other 5% didn't really ship. But it's interesting because throughout all of season 3, not one of us over there shipped Bright/Hannah. No one cared or if there was a reaction, it was negative.

[secretk]

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) It was really sad when he lashed out at Andy. Even more sad that Amy had to go to Andy and not her own father or Grandmother.

That's true. Though the important thing here is the circumstances. I could understand Amy not feeling OK sharing some stuff with her parents. I know that when I was severely depressed I didn't feel comfortable talking to my parents about it. I didn't feel comfortable also talking to my shrink but that's just me . I don't like being vulnerable. Luckily I managed to work on this as well and now I'm more open about the way I feel.

In this case however Amy could have talked to Harold if he was willing to listen. The problem was that he wasn't. And Amy was not that close to Rose like she was with Harold. At least not at that time. She became closer in Season 4 I think.

Harold, in general was a loving, caring father but he also picked really bad times to turn his back on his children. He treated Bright like crap for such a long stretch of time when Bright would screw up. He acted like he wasn't worthy of a father at times, it was so bad. Turning his back on Amy when she was at her lowest with the depression as well. It's ironic that Harold was like this when you compare Andy as a father. He was a horrible father in New York but completely changed when they moved to Everwood. Even with the gross Madison disaster, Andy made so many mistakes with that situation as we know. But we could never, not even for a second, think he was doing that out of spite. He tried to make the situation go away because he loved Ephram and wanted the best for him. His love and loyalty went overboard in this case but he still made those mistakes out of love. I have to wonder how Harold would have reacted if Bright would have gotten Madison or someone like her pregnant.

I think that in a way that was a contrast Berlanti wanted to show. So we have Andy - the neglectful father that really was absent. And that's how he hurt Ephram - by being absent father and husband. Notice Ephram was not that upset that Andy was absent father to him. He was upset that Andy was absent husband to his mother and absent father to Delia. This is why Ephram's resentment was so severe at times. He was upset for him, Delia and Julia all in one.

On the other hand we have Harold who seems to be the very opposite of Andy. The dedicated loving father. Problem was his dedication wasn't always directed in the correct places. Harold's dedication sometimes turned out to be the bad thing for his kids. Harold's strong feelings towards Amy is the thing that stopped him from being supportive whens he was depressed.

The conclusion is that balance is needed in both cases. Every parent needs to find the balance. Both Andy and Harold had to do it. They started from different points, but had to end in the same place - the middle.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by secretk (View Post) That's true. Though the important thing here is the circumstances. I could understand Amy not feeling OK sharing some stuff with her parents. I know that when I was severely depressed I didn't feel comfortable talking to my parents about it. I didn't feel comfortable also talking to my shrink but that's just me . I don't like being vulnerable. Luckily I managed to work on this as well and now I'm more open about the way I feel. In this case however Amy could have talked to Harold if he was willing to listen. The problem was that he wasn't. And Amy was not that close to Rose like she was with Harold. At least not at that time. She became closer in Season 4 I think.

I think Amy's form of communication with Harold was non-verbal. Non-verbal is often times even more important than verbal communication in a situation like this one. Amy was crying for help from the start even if she didn't want to discuss it too much. But her complete change in personality, not wanting to do anything, not caring about anything, was all non-verbal communication to Harold that she needed some help. He just didn't see, didn't want to see it, or felt like she could snap out of it.

I think that in a way that was a contrast Berlanti wanted to show. So we have Andy - the neglectful father that really was absent. And that's how he hurt Ephram - by being absent father and husband. Notice Ephram was not that upset that Andy was absent father to him. He was upset that Andy was absent husband to his mother and absent father to Delia. This is why Ephram's resentment was so severe at times. He was upset for him, Delia and Julia all in one. On the other hand we have Harold who seems to be the very opposite of Andy. The dedicated loving father. Problem was his dedication wasn't always directed in the correct places. Harold's dedication sometimes turned out to be the bad thing for his kids. Harold's strong feelings towards Amy is the thing that stopped him from being supportive whens he was depressed. The conclusion is that balance is needed in both cases. Every parent needs to find the balance. Both Andy and Harold had to do it. They started from different points, but had to end in the same place - the middle.

Bang on. I completely agree. We pretty much witnessed two extremes. Balance is the key.

Berlanti also demonstrated this when the abortion episode came up. Everyone expected Andy to be the one who could step up and go there... what a twist, it was Harold that went there. Balance, not being too set in your ways, environmental issues sometimes even changing your views from minute to minute. Extremes aren't good, things being set in stone aren't good. Balance, room to change and go with the flow is the best approach.