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Old 05-17-2017, 07:33 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by have a little faith (View Post)
Was a hell of a cliffhanger LoT ended on I rather Wentworth be brought back on The Flash if they were to somehow make OUR Captain Cold alive again or use another Earth version cause Flash can write for him where LoT was a waste

Though opposite is for Mick LoT really did wonders for the character
ohh i need to catch up on LoT but i love captian cold on it and your right they did improve on mick
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Old 05-17-2017, 07:59 AM
  #47
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We don't know what the cliffhanger is. Let's wait and see I'm not pulling for another change to the timeline though.

The thing with Killer Frost is, she was never going to be pure evil because she can't be killed off. If she were responsible for Iris' death, how could she be redeemed? How could Barry welcome her back with open arms? I believe that's the reason why the show put in there those flashes of doubt. They were trying to protect Caitlin and her place on the team.

The writers had two options here:

a) make her evil and eventually kill her off;

b) make her have doubts so that she could be redeemed somewhere along the way.

If she had crossed the line here, it would have been game over for Caitlin. They can stretch the storyline into S4, maybe she will even kill some randoms. She could be a morally grey guest star a la Captain Cold but I doubt that will ever happen because the showrunners love the actress and the Team Flash set-up.

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not really? i mean, yeah, but only because grodd was mind controlling her.

i mean, she joined the injustice league and league of super villains, suicide squad and most recently of course the justice league, etc..... but none of those partnerships last a long time if i remember correctly. she generally was kind of a lone wolf type or someone who was at the fringes of belonging to a group.
Okay, thanks
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Old 05-17-2017, 09:06 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by MyzButterfly (View Post)
You sound disappointed that Iris doesn't die.
not at all... i'm disappointed in the story. isis shouldn't die. its the same as building to killer frost and then redeeming her almost instantly. iris shouldn't die, it does nothing for the story and is pointless... but they made it about her death. and so when she's found to be alive - if not wholly well next episode -

if you're going to build to something, you need to have some lasting impact. and i can't see one. if they were leaving killer frost as a villain heading into season 4, there's an impact. in the drive to save one friend and loved one, you lose another, good impact. hr's probable death pretending to be iris kind of fits that but the impact is somewhat mooted by the fact that we only knew him for one season. it's not really the same as having someone whose been around since almost day one - losing them has more gravitas to the long time viewer. but they are already frantically redeeming her so that's not happening.

wally had powers in flash point so while it was in fact new - that's the logical progression and most probably saw it coming. we see him as a hero at the very start of the season and he's a better hero at the end of the season. that's good but again, not a big needle mover because we saw it most of the season. its not a cliff hanger. like if kF killed julian, that would be a moment to build into season because its like omg, caitlain lost, she's forever KF, etc... but that's not where they seem to be going.

my point is this, i view shows as i do book series. you obviously want the reader to come back for the next book in the series, correct? in order to do that as an author you need to create scenario's that increase the interest or keeps the interest for the next book.

my point of contention is that this feels like a conclusion, not a TBD. this is like the end of the Lord of the rings with Frodo going off with Gandalf but everyone else whose survived is going to have a relatively nice, happy life. or end of the pirates of the caribbean where yeah, will's the new davy jones but he's still ends up with elisabeth, etc. it feels more like a conclusion than something that is supposed to drumb up excitement in season 4.


i'll sum it up as best i can... because iris needs to survive and i believe did... killer frost needs to be remain a villain. it doesn't work the other way because of the story they created. not saying one day you can't redeem KF... but not right now. you don't redeem darth vader at the end of the first star wars.

you can't kill off iris because she's too important and integral to the story. but you also shouldn't go 0 for 2 when its comes to consequences. because otherwise, everything worked out for the better really for the heroes. and while that's a great finish to a story... i don't feel personally like it sets up the next chapter that well.

you save iris and lose caitlain. good story, potentially great.
you save iris, save caitlain, get wally super powers, enhance cisco's abilities... that's a more a happy ending than what you see from an act heading into an intermission IMO.




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i feel cliff hanger wise it's just all been from the show's pov banked on the returning characters.

which is ok, i guess but ....kinda lazy at the same time. and it goes back to not developing the characters they already have.


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killer frost didn't need to be pure evil. just needed to remain a villain thru the season. doubts are fine. and when written well... make a villain much more compelling iMO. and more fitting of her comic character where she was more a greyish character than a villain or hero.

and you don't have to kill off the villain. the third option is she's not around all the time but pops up regularly. she's a sometimes antagonist, sometimes unexpected ally whose motives are cloudy.

and i also don't think she needs to be redeemed. even if she did kill off a main character. because now there's a lasting consequence to the story. it changes everything. that's what made eobard great, was the scene where he kills cisco. or the scene where spoilers

- kylo ren kills han solo - is that you can tell he's conflicted. but he does it anyway. because imo that makes kylo ren's future story really interesting. it makes him a more dynamic character to me.

its kind of like captain cold... where he's kind of evil, kind of not, but generally has an ulterior motive for helping even when he does. but he's not also totally redeemed but you can see sometimes the conflict.

and even in doing the redemption arc, that's fine... but one episode later? after building towards it all season that's it?

because to your point... they're not stretching it into season 4. they're clearly setting up caitlain's return in 3x23 and that's a wrap because there's no rationale for killer frost popping back out in the future now.

and i disagree with the show, fine, keep the actress around if you want but the show needs to change. it needs that shake up and for better or for worse, she's the character in the best position to provide it. because HR dying if he even does, they'll just bring in a different version of wells or wells himself will return.

because otherwise it becomes a little bit like the boy who cried wolf. they tease it, and tease it and tease it but never really commit...people are going to lose interest. it stops becoming a draw in for people who want to see it. because eventually they'll learn that after 1-2 episodes... is over. and it becomes harder and harder for me as a viewer and someone who started out as a caitlain fan to justify her being on the team.

it pains me to say this and i know its not how the show feels - but she's basically an after thought as caitlain. and its not just because they just have her standing at a computer desk but its because of the lack of importance relatively speaking placed on the character. because outside or hr, she's basically low member on he totem pole...

which why making her a villain makes so much bloody sense to me, lol. because she could have anger and resentment and issues with things and now you give these powers and gd...its so easy and simple its perfect. because in all seriousness, outside of cisco and her seasonal LI... unless an episode calls specifically for someone else to care... there's really no evidence to support her place. again, i'm aware the show doesn't share that pov but i think its true.

again, thats why her being a villain works because there is stuff from show canon from seasons 1-3, mostly 2-3, that they could use - which they won't - to fuel her motivation, at least in part. but again, not how they see it obviously. even he idea of savitar needing her for something is laughable because...

even that's an after thought. something that should be big for the character turns into "your only important if this happens first" and then only, even after that first thing happens, we're going to redeem you before you do said thing that was supposedly important so you've not even going to do it after the more important thing happened....


so in some ways its not surprising that she's becoming caitlain again so quickly. because keeping her as kf and a villain requires committing something to the character while putting her at a desk and having julian come back or cisco save her really does not and requires minimal effort and time so it makes sense and keeps star labs whole. so from the show's pov it makes sense i guess.
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Old 05-17-2017, 11:27 AM
  #49
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I hope I can post this on here:

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Old 05-17-2017, 11:31 AM
  #50
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thanks for those

i don't want to sound too negative... there are some really good episodes and moments this season. i just think that it could be so much more what it is with some changes. committing to letting iris be more than barry's LI, letting killer frost stay as a grey character or villain - and change up the current model.
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Old 05-17-2017, 11:33 AM
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I find the EvilBarry and present Barry photo very interesting.
Are they going to work together?

Personally, I hope Caitlin stays Killer Frost, but working with Team Flash.
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Old 05-17-2017, 12:19 PM
  #52
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yeah, that is interesting.


it kind of parallels killer frost / cisco standing side by side in the other shot. so is there some kind of team up? that doesn't make any sense. i mean if caitlain came out and worked on stopping savitar, that makes sense. but savitar just chilling by barry? not so much.

and is she.... protecting him? int that photo? cause he's again just kind of in the background lurking and smirking









----------------------

in time i'd be good with her working with team flash from time to time. but not right away / quite yet.
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Old 05-17-2017, 01:24 PM
  #53
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I hope this thing with Savitar won't end up being really stupid and anticlimactic

Quote:
Originally Posted by bonnie51 (View Post)
and you don't have to kill off the villain. the third option is she's not around all the time but pops up regularly. she's a sometimes antagonist, sometimes unexpected ally whose motives are cloudy.

and i also don't think she needs to be redeemed. even if she did kill off a main character. because now there's a lasting consequence to the story. it changes everything. that's what made eobard great, was the scene where he kills cisco.

its kind of like captain cold... where he's kind of evil, kind of not, but generally has an ulterior motive for helping even when he does. but he's not also totally redeemed but you can see sometimes the conflict.
I can't accept Killer Frost as a unexpected ally if she kills a main character, and by main character I mean someone in Barry's inner circle, a loved one. That didn't happen with Captain Cold. Arrow did it with Malcolm Merlyn and the character has overstayed his welcome.

If Iris had died and Killer Frost had had a hand in her demise, the last thing I would have wanted is for Barry to have occasional team-ups with her. No. He should have hated her like his future self did. And I would say the same if she killed Joe/Cisco/Wally, etc.

And I'm okay with her being like Captain Cold but we see him four times per season tops

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Originally Posted by bonnie51 (View Post)
it pains me to say this and i know its not how the show feels - but she's basically an after thought as caitlain. and its not just because they just have her standing at a computer desk but its because of the lack of importance relatively speaking placed on the character. because outside or hr, she's basically low member on he totem pole...

which why making her a villain makes so much bloody sense to me, lol. because she could have anger and resentment and issues with things and now you give these powers and gd...its so easy and simple its perfect. because in all seriousness, outside of cisco and her seasonal LI... unless an episode calls specifically for someone else to care... there's really no evidence to support her place. again, i'm aware the show doesn't share that pov but i think its true.
I can understand this viewpoint if we are talking about Barry specifically but not so much if we are talking about the rest of the main cast.

The people who have been shown to care the most about Caitlin are Cisco and Julian. But then who are the people Caitlin cares the most for? Certainly not HR, Iris, Joe and Wally. If Caitlin is not shown to jump through hoops to "save" and comfort them then why should she have any anger and resentment towards them for not doing the same when she is the one in need?

Now with Barry is different because he is the lead and has shown flashes of selfishness and carelessness. I love Barry but it's true. Neither the show nor Caitlin share this viewpoint though. The Killer Frost episode was the exception but there has been no follow-through. Now it's canon that Killer Frost is working with Savitar because he has a pretty face that she can trust.

It's also true that Caitlin is the only character who wasn't grilled by Barry for "sabotaging", inadvertently or not, his #SaveIris mission. In the same episode that has Barry kick Wally out the team for keeping his Savitar visions a secret, Caitlin is forgiven for hiding a piece of the stone. Should Wally, Joe and Iris resent her for that?
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Old 05-17-2017, 02:24 PM
  #54
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not at all... i'm disappointed in the story. isis shouldn't die. its the same as building to killer frost and then redeeming her almost instantly. iris shouldn't die, it does nothing for the story and is pointless... but they made it about her death. and so when she's found to be alive - if not wholly well next episode -
Ah gotcha!!

I think the point the writers were aiming to bring across is how important Iris is to Barry, and thereby Flash. There were definite holes along the way, but overall for S3, I think that's their goal. Other factors notwithstanding, they're bringing that point across.


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if you're going to build to something, you need to have some lasting impact. and i can't see one. if they were leaving killer frost as a villain heading into season 4, there's an impact. in the drive to save one friend and loved one, you lose another, good impact. hr's probable death pretending to be iris kind of fits that but the impact is somewhat mooted by the fact that we only knew him for one season. it's not really the same as having someone whose been around since almost day one - losing them has more gravitas to the long time viewer. but they are already frantically redeeming her so that's not happening.
That's why I think they're going with HR, so that the team doesn't lose a long time person and minimize the damage since it's their darkest season thus far.

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wally had powers in flash point so while it was in fact new - that's the logical progression and most probably saw it coming. we see him as a hero at the very start of the season and he's a better hero at the end of the season. that's good but again, not a big needle mover because we saw it most of the season. its not a cliff hanger. like if kF killed julian, that would be a moment to build into season because its like omg, caitlain lost, she's forever KF, etc... but that's not where they seem to be going.
But that's the thing. Isn't it better for Caitlin to be around than KF? If she's KF, as a villain she'd have to be removed completely from the canvas at some point. I think the redemption is quite hasty, as she has a hand in Iris' 'death' and I still don't know her motivation. Actually, I really don't get much about KF or what drives her at all. But showing that Caitlin is still in there kinda saves the character.

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Originally Posted by bonnie51 (View Post)
my point is this, i view shows as i do book series. you obviously want the reader to come back for the next book in the series, correct? in order to do that as an author you need to create scenario's that increase the interest or keeps the interest for the next book.
I'm waiting to see what the cliffhanger is at the end of the season. Something has to happen that changes or sets the dynamic for S4.

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my point of contention is that this feels like a conclusion, not a TBD. this is like the end of the Lord of the rings with Frodo going off with Gandalf but everyone else whose survived is going to have a relatively nice, happy life. or end of the pirates of the caribbean where yeah, will's the new davy jones but he's still ends up with elisabeth, etc. it feels more like a conclusion than something that is supposed to drumb up excitement in season 4.
See, but I'm not against them concluding this arc and starting fresh for S4. This season has been so dark and haunting, I'm kinda hoping for something new altogether. Yes the effects of S3 would have be felt in S4, but I don't think a conclusion is a bad thing.

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you can't kill off iris because she's too important and integral to the story. but you also shouldn't go 0 for 2 when its comes to consequences. because otherwise, everything worked out for the better really for the heroes. and while that's a great finish to a story... i don't feel personally like it sets up the next chapter that well.
This reminds me of when Cpt. Cold told Flash "Your goodness is your strength." It's a win that Barry needs. He's suffered too much with seeing his parents murdered. Now that it's the the love of his life, he needs that win!

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Originally Posted by bonnie51 (View Post)
you save iris and lose caitlain. good story, potentially great.
you save iris, save caitlain, get wally super powers, enhance cisco's abilities... that's a more a happy ending than what you see from an act heading into an intermission IMO.
I guess I don't get the Iris/Caitlin correlation? The stake of Caitlin being KF isn't as high as Iris losing her life. So then why wouldn't' they wrap the season up and start anew? I still think there'll be a cliffhanger though.



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Originally Posted by bonnie51 (View Post)
and even in doing the redemption arc, that's fine... but one episode later? after building towards it all season that's it?
I agree. I think they should have done a much better job with the redemption. But it's the same as Iris. They could use her job as a reporter to tie the strings for Team Flash but they have ignored it. It just reminds us that each character supports Barry Allen. Unless it's something that will directly affect him, we're not going to see it.

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Originally Posted by bonnie51 (View Post)
it pains me to say this and i know its not how the show feels - but she's basically an after thought as caitlain. and its not just because they just have her standing at a computer desk but its because of the lack of importance relatively speaking placed on the character. because outside or hr, she's basically low member on he totem pole...
I don't think Caitlin is low on the totem pole. I think she's up there from Cisco and Julian's perspective. I really don't think they, especially Cisco, get the credit deserved for being there for Caitlin. If anything, the KF arc solidified the relationship that Cisco and Caitlin have. That's a positive factor that hasn't been recognized nearly enough IMO. It kinda feels like if the attention isn't from Barry, it's not worth having, and I don't understand that at all.
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Old 05-17-2017, 03:02 PM
  #55
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I hope this thing with Savitar won't end up being really stupid and anticlimactic
unfortunately, it seems it might? i mean... under what circumstances... whether iris is alive or not... would barry be ok at all with savitar standing there?

Quote:
I can't accept Killer Frost as a unexpected ally if she kills a main character, and by main character I mean someone in Barry's inner circle, a loved one. That didn't happen with Captain Cold. Arrow did it with Malcolm Merlyn and the character has overstayed his welcome.
agreed on MM... and the character in question was julian lol, at least in my mind. it'd complete her transformation to killer frost and not be super damaging to team flash.

Quote:
If Iris had died and Killer Frost had had a hand in her demise, the last thing I would have wanted is for Barry to have occasional team-ups with her. No. He should have hated her like his future self did. And I would say the same if she killed Joe/Cisco/Wally, etc.
oh, agreed.

Quote:
And I'm okay with her being like Captain Cold but we see him four times per season tops
yeah, but that's not saying it couldn't work. if there's 23 episodes in a season.... if they were so inclined you could see in a 5 episode arc, have her barely there or gone for 2, have her pop back up for 4-5 episodes, gone for 2-3, back again for 4ish, gone for a couple, and then back 21,22,23, etc...

so it is doable. and that is how i honestly would do it until such time came where i felt redeeming the character made more sense, if that time came or if having her become more of a subtle ally made sense.


I can understand this viewpoint if we are talking about Barry specifically but not so much if we are talking about the rest of the main cast.

Quote:
The people who have been shown to care the most about Caitlin are Cisco and Julian. But then who are the people Caitlin cares the most for? Certainly not HR, Iris, Joe and Wally. If Caitlin is not shown to jump through hoops to "save" and comfort them then why should she have any anger and resentment towards them for not doing the same when she is the one in need?
i agree with there up to about 90%....

except she was asked to risk losing control to stop the spread of the decay or whatever from that metahuman with iris that julian talked her down from. and then the only reason barry confronted her in 3x07 was because it was about wally. he even said that he was there because he needed her help.
which is fine because they're heroes etc and its what they do and they all care for each other etc, etc...

my point is whether indirectly or directly, the show's even kind of voiced it from julian's credulity that no one was looking for her or depending on how you took it iris is "why would he choose to save caitlain?"

which i about died of laughter from because i'm a) i'm jaded and b was the response that he must need something from her. which of course, is true. but rather than an "idk" or shrug it was stated as fact like that was the only reason. like it was a surprise that he would decide to save her... and i know that's probably not he the way the show intended it to appear...

there's no denying that the show clearly has her interact mostly with cisco/care for and vice versea and that's fine. but there have been instances where she's saved or been asked to save and while admittedly, its not like she's done it 25 times.... its still there.

and the funny thing is the same thing happened with KF on earth two. after she ultimately turns on zoom... they just kind of leave her.

and there clearly was zero effort to get her back from zoom. make plans to trick criminals and meta humans around town and track down a angry meta human who took wells when powerless? yep. come up with a plan to stop reverb? yep.

other than cisco vibing and saying she was "fine" shackled to a bed, etc... there was no clear plan. or when she was at the police station and they knew where she was... nodda. zoom literally let her go. and then she gets the joy of watching him kill her hologrpahic self to help defeat him.

its telling that outside of joe and cisco resucing her from cold and heat wave in season one... well, that's kinda been it. and that's kind of my point. while heaven and earth have been moved to save other characters - and that's fine because they should be saved as well - i can't treat caitlain like a valued member of the team when she's only saved when it suits them, the plot cares for it or nothing / no one more important is in danger.

go to E2 to save someone we never met? check.
go there to save someone we supposedly care about? nope. try to come up with a plan of sneaking someone out of a police station where two of us work and others have been many times? nope. ok.


i understand and accept the why and how of it and it actually does not bother me in terms of her placement - other than that then they act when the plot calls for it like she's important to them etc and i just call BS.

general reaction in season 2 and 3 when saving caitlain is mentioned




and that's fine. but then don't pretend like it's that important that she's there is all i'm saying. the show can't have it both ways. it can't have the a recurring character and cisco be the only ones showing any outward interest in saving her or have any real concern and then have me not laugh when barry tries calling them all a family. picture A does not match picture B.

Quote:
Now with Barry is different because he is the lead and has shown flashes of selfishness and carelessness. I love Barry but it's true. Neither the show nor Caitlin share this viewpoint though.
valid mostly but again, it kind of does. be either there being no effort to get her back from zoom or no real interest in saving her this season - or shall i say making it a priority - then it kind of does. which is why i reject the idea that she has to be there. i wouldn't have after season one and the first half of season 2.... but its where i'm at now.



the real reason caitlain is coming back is because then the show can continue to do nothing. it requires little time and effort to have someone play the sad scientist.

which is totally fine. but then i ask the show not to expect me to believe that she has to be there in order for the team to function or that not having her there as caitlain damages it in anyways.

Quote:
The Killer Frost episode was the exception
not really. because

a) it showed that caitlain understood that on same level, dr. alchemy was a better bet for getting rid of her powers than team flash. in some ways she didn't trust them enough to stick around, telling cisco "i'm the one whose going to have to leave soon". now, i know how that line was meant but when coupled with her search for dr. alchemy for a cure rather than asking for help... in a lot of ways IMO tragically shows she understands where she is on the food chain to me. it can be taken that she didn't want to hurt any of them but also that she didn't really trust any of them. she kept it a secret and other than cisco finding out - only trusted her mom with the truth. to me, that screams that the character has some understanding of where she ranks when the two people she goes to for help are a villain and a person she has an adverse relationship with.

b) even the scene in the pipe line.... wasn't about her. the only reason barry went down there was because as he himself said, he needed her help. so that scene, while i think well done, wasn't even about her. it was about needing her to save wally.
and the scene where julian talks her down happens because they needed her to save iris. so none of that happens without them needing something from her, it wasn't really about her.

now, would that scenario have eventually played out? perhaps, but perhaps not. in that UA where wally's fine? potentially but we'll never know. my point is was even that... wasn't about her character. they needed something from her is why that happened.


Quote:
Should Wally, Joe and Iris resent her for that?
honestly? i'd have no problem if they did. just as her having resentment and hatred for some of the stuff mentioned for the past two seasons makes sense, so would have that. and might have made for compelling television.

though again - outside of joe - none of them have ever saved her to my knowledge. she hasn't saved them a ton buts it still an edge in her favor, however relatively small the sample side is - i think 3-0 or 3-1? since iris did assist julian in the surgery - even if caitlain basically operated on herself to some degree.




------

the cliff hanger could be good. i have doubts... and yeah, cisco/julian clearly care but that kind of makes my point. where the two characters who interact with you are okay, cisco, that's a plus and someone who in all likelihood won't be back past this season and the previous season you interacted most with another character whose a one and done....

then i just don't see where you're not lower on the totem pole, so to speak


-------------

while i agree that was the motivation for barry/iris etc... anyone who watched season 2 and most of season one already knew that... which is why it didn't make sense to me from that point to devote an entire season to something that ultimately wasn't going to happen to show something fans of season 1 and 2 already knew? i just don't see the logic in that. a 4-5 or 6-7 episode arc... okay... that i guess can work to reinforce her importance... but an entire season right after the end of last season declared her his lightening rod, etc... if it had ever been in question?
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Old 05-18-2017, 03:43 AM
  #56
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I guess we have to agree to disagree

Iris saved Caitlin from Peek-a-Boo. Even though it seems Caitlin has saved them or been asked to help them more times, it's only because she's a doctor and a meta. The others don't have the same means and how risky a mission against Zoom could be for a human needs to be taken into consideration.

Caitlin hasn't been shown to help Joe, Iris or Wally out of the goodness of her heart. It was always because of her role as the team doctor. And saving someone means also acknowledging their suffering and offering emotional support. Did Caitlin ever go out of her way to support people not named Barry, Cisco or Julian? Iris acknowledged that Caitlin's future also needed to be changed in 3x10, told Barry that Caitlin was still out there in 3x19, thanked her and encouraged her when she was trying to stop the decay from spreading. Even though her contributions are more limited, in those instances Iris has shown more compassion towards Caitlin than the hero of the show. That's why I don't think she (or even Joe, Wally and HR) deserves Caitlin's anger and resentment as much as Barry.

Not only Caitlin hasn't shown to be that compassionate towards Iris, Joe and Wally, she actually worked against them when she kept that piece of the stone. She jeopardized Iris' safety even though at the time the handcuffs and necklace Cisco and Julian built were shown to be working.

That's why I don't think Caitlin has been wronged more than any other character. By Barry? Sure. The writing is biased towards Barry so if he wants something everyone eventually obliges but he can avoid offering as much support in return. Wronged by the others? No.

Iris has everyone worried for the sole reason that Barry loves her. I actually think that for someone who is not a #1 priority, Caitlin is treated pretty well as Cisco and Julian are very caring. When the writers forgot that WestAllen was a thing in S2 Iris didn't get support and comfort from anyone. Eddie committed suicide in front of her and where was her hug? Because Caitlin got the hug from Barry and got to express her PoV over Ronnie's death immediately after it happened. Heck, Caitlin almost got a hug from Iris whose boyfriend had died minutes before! Barry comforted Iris only when the writers wanted to go all the way with WestAllen. And it was the same with the Francine storyline. Barry and Joe were nowhere to be found apart from the occasional scene.

Now I'm back to being bitter over S2. This season is flawed but nothing beats the crap that was S2.

All story short, the family line from Barry was definitely BS. There are "cliques" on the team. They all love Barry but the show has mostly failed to show the friendship and closeness between the characters outside of him. There's balance in how little they care for each other.
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Old 05-18-2017, 07:36 AM
  #57
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I don't even really acknowledge S2 except from ep 19 onward.
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:27 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireQueen (View Post)
I guess we have to agree to disagree

Iris saved Caitlin from Peek-a-Boo. Even though it seems Caitlin has saved them or been asked to help them more times, it's only because she's a doctor and a meta.

Quote:
The others don't have the same means and how risky a mission against Zoom could be for a human needs to be taken into consideration.
yes.... though that same risk is ignored when it applies to others. the powerless humans took on an ally of zoom's in the same episode.... so i'm not sure that's really any safer than trying to rescue someone from zoom? either action likely results in pissing zoom off.....




Quote:
Caitlin hasn't been shown to help Joe, Iris or Wally out of the goodness of her heart. It was always because of her role as the team doctor. And saving someone means also acknowledging their suffering and offering emotional support.
yes and that's true. and largely, i don't have a problem as mentioned if they did have an issue with her keeping the stone or whatever, etc... just if she felt slighted or whatever, i'd have no problem with that either. basically, i don't buy the happy family star labs crap.



Quote:
Did Caitlin ever go out of her way to support people not named Barry, Cisco or Julian? Iris acknowledged that Caitlin's future also needed to be changed in 3x10, told Barry that Caitlin was still out there in 3x19,
i'm not certain if mentioning something is entirely going out of your way for someone.....

the show is great at mentioning things for a line - someone is out there - someone needs rescuing - we need to focus on this too - and i've just become numbed to that, tbh. kind of like julian's questioning why no one was looking for kf...

while it's worth some brownie points... its more about actions anymore. the show uses throw away lines too often for me to really give a one off statement much credit. because while it was certainly nice and appreciated iris said those things... was there any real impact / follow up / action? by and large, not really. its kind of the same thing in some ways to barry saying he was going to save her in 3x19 and then really hasn't even tried. and that's fine because understandably, priorities. but while i understand that aspect of it... it also means that instead of saying awww... when there's a one life line or two lines about a character i roll my eyes because i know that was thrown in as a reminder of something the show really doesn't plan on actually showing.

which goes back to past conversations... if you want me to believe something, i need to see it. not every episode, not all the time. but more than once or twice in 23 episodes could be somewhat helpful.

and yes, that is a two way street. just as i don't think caitlain has any real reason to care about most of them... the same is also largely true. which again goes back to an earlier comment of not buying that all these people really like each other and consider themselves family, etc....



Quote:
thanked her and encouraged her when she was trying to stop the decay from spreading.
yes, but admittedly, that was somewhat of self interest. not saying it wasn't genuine but her encouraging her when stopping the spread of decay was in some part based on self preservation. i'd have done the same thing, but it doesn't make it some big act.

Quote:
Even though her contributions are more limited, in those instances Iris has shown more compassion towards Caitlin than the hero of the show. That's why I don't think she (or even Joe, Wally and HR) deserves Caitlin's anger and resentment as much as Barry.
that is true.. by far it is barry in the lead....... but will also say that i don't think it's at zero for everyone else... joe's actions, while not directly or intentional, lead to her dying. while they were completely understandable... i'd also find it understandable if said person who "died" was still a little... miffed? put off? i mean, with or without gypsy's interference while joe's desperation is understandable its also naive to think a villain's not going to try to break the deal as soon as he can and that could lead to someone else getting hurt.

Quote:
Not only Caitlin hasn't shown to be that compassionate towards Iris, Joe and Wally, she actually worked against them when she kept that piece of the stone. She jeopardized Iris' safety even though at the time the handcuffs and necklace Cisco and Julian built were shown to be working.
yes - and again - if used, that could have made for some interesting drama and intrigue. there could have been a confrontation about that about her jeopardizing iris and about her potentially not trusting them to actually save her, etc... but instead.... nothing. which is kind of my larger point. the character basically amounts to........ nothing.

someone mentions something about her here or there. maybe something happens for an episode or so but nothing ever sticks. she's a scientist on a team with at least two other scientists - potentially 3-4 now - and a doctor for a group of super heroes.



Quote:
Iris has everyone worried for the sole reason that Barry loves her.
largely true. i won't quite go 100% but largely true.

Quote:
Caitlin is treated pretty well
i'm sorry but i have to laugh. a character where one "regular" cast member they interact with other than seasonal guest stars who routinely die - generally right in front of her -and or leave is not someone i'd ever consider to be treated pretty well.

i mean in reality...the villains of the series have had a greater need for her than the heroes.

grodd needed her help in trying to figure out to not be alone anymore.
zolomon had some weird need for her to choose him until he tried to kill her.
and now savitar has some need for her to do something for him

she has one actual relationship on the show - not counting julian since for $ if nothing else i doubt he's back just like ronnie, jay, someone in season 4, i'm sure...

Quote:
Heck, Caitlin almost got a hug from Iris whose boyfriend had died minutes before!
you mean kinda like when caitlain watched "jay" get killed right in front of her and then i was implied everyone but cisco just up and left?

or when after nearly dying before technically "dying" this season, everyone just kind of up and left except cisco and the recurring character of the season?

or how again, how it was implied imo that they weren't ever really going to try to get her back from zoom? or every time something happens its "grodd won't hurt her" or "she's fine" etc... aka no big rush / deal.

i mean... she's still the only character who no we've never seen anyone else met their parents or remaining parent / family. we obviously met francine, cisco's parents/dante, henry, - she went off on her own and all we got was a line from cisco about what her mom said. and then was nearly turned into a science experiment.

so yeah... i probably wouldn't classify her as being treated pretty well just because she has one friend and is the default love interest for recurring gust stars and arguably might be the character who i see the most but does the least i might have ever seen on tv. the real secret of why they like her might be her ability to look depressed.

is she the most misuesed character in the history of tv? oh, hell no. there have been worse and probably will be worse, sadly, somewhere down the line.


but on this show? oh yeah. iris is an extremely close runner up. which is a travesty in its own right since that character and actress deserves so much more than to simply be the love interest of the hero of the show and should be a such better written character and more dynamic character than they clearly care to take the time and effort to develop and has had no POV time regarding her own potential death which is inexcusable in its own right - she falls to #2 on my big board of mistreated characters because while its not based on herself as a character entirely apart from being Barry's LI the show has clearly given an importance to the character which is as it should be.... but that also means she can't be #1 for me because again, while it's sadly not based just on the merits of her alone as a character - the show has established that the hero of the show can't function without her. i can't give her the top stop when that occurs. both are horribly written, both are terribly misused and both should be so much more than what the show allows them to be. the fact that its so close is a sad testament to how poorly and wrongly they have done iris west on this show.....

and here's the kicker. i literally dread caitlain's return. because for me, she's become such a pointless character. at this point i might actually be okay with only seeing her for 4 episodes a season like captain cold... i'd like more killer frost but if its as caitlain... 4 episodes is fine. it'd save me from watching her awkwardly flirt with next seasons love interest and free up cisco for more inevitable bro moments with wells or barry

i've got her down pat, i tell ya.

X Episode dialogue: "science science i'm smart science science i'm smart"

bend of episode to defeath villiain: "science, science, i'm so smart"

mannerisms:

frown / stare. shrug. look depressed and or sad. repeat.



Quote:
Now I'm back to being bitter over S2. This season is flawed but nothing beats the crap that was S2.
on the whole, i'm inclined to agree but i did enjoy parts of season 2. zoom, for all his flaws, was a much better villain imo.

Quote:
All story short, the family line from Barry was definitely BS. There are "cliques" on the team. They all love Barry but the show has mostly failed to show the friendship and closeness between the characters outside of him. There's balance in how little they care for each other.
in this, we can agree

and just as i;'d have no problem with the west's having issue over the philosopher's stone, i have no issue if they would have gone the route of having killer frost channel some inner frustration of some kind.

it'd have been more beliveable, and probably more interesting than pretending that they all loved each other imo
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:57 AM
  #59
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The CW Upfront is happening today as we got the new fall TV schedule for the network which includes The Flash Season 4! We also got a new synopsis for the fourth season which you can see below.

Quote:
“Barry Allen (Grant Gustin) lived a normal life as a perpetually tardy C.S.I. in the Central City Police Department. Barry’s life changed forever when the S.T.A.R. Labs Particle Accelerator exploded, creating a dark-matter lightning storm that struck Barry, bestowing him with super-speed and making him the fastest man alive — The Flash. But when Barry used his extraordinary abilities to travel back in time and save his mother’s life, he inadvertently created an alternate timeline known as Flashpoint; a phenomenon that gave birth to the villainous speed god known as Savitar, and changed the lives of Caitlin Snow (Danielle Panabaker) and Wally West (Keiyan Lonsdale) forever.

With the help of his adoptive father, Joe West (Jesse L. Martin), his lifelong best friend and love interest Iris West (Candice Patton), and his friends at S.T.A.R. Labs — Cisco Ramon (Carlos Valdes), C.S.I Julian Albert (Tom Felton), and an Earth-19 novelist named H.R. Wells (Tom Cavanaugh) — Barry continues to protect the people of Central City from the meta-humans that threaten it.

Based on the characters from DC, THE FLASH is from Bonanza Productions Inc. in association with Berlanti Productions and Warner Bros. Television, with executive producers Greg Berlanti (“Arrow,” “Supergirl”), Andrew Kreisberg (“Arrow,” “The Flash”), Sarah Schechter (“Arrow,” “DC’s Legends of Tomorrow”) and Todd Helbing (“Black Sails”).”
xx
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:36 AM
  #60
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thanks. that is interesting.

kind of weird that it would give away what happens in the finale a little bit before it airs?

i mean, that implies obviously wally's powers but also potentially that killer frost is still on the loose? potentially? idk...


and of course, anyone who thought last week was really the end for iris - upon reading that that would certainly be a shock but as pointed out earlier, the regular fans won't read that so they can still be surprised




and so much for the theory of julian not coming back / being killed off... as well as hr? i'm a little confused as to what exactly happened now at the end if he wasn't pretending to be iris....
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