bonnie51

not at all... i'm disappointed in the story. isis shouldn't die. its the same as building to killer frost and then redeeming her almost instantly. iris shouldn't die, it does nothing for the story and is pointless... but they made it about her death. and so when she's found to be alive - if not wholly well next episode -

if you're going to build to something, you need to have some lasting impact. and i can't see one. if they were leaving killer frost as a villain heading into season 4, there's an impact. in the drive to save one friend and loved one, you lose another, good impact. hr's probable death pretending to be iris kind of fits that but the impact is somewhat mooted by the fact that we only knew him for one season. it's not really the same as having someone whose been around since almost day one - losing them has more gravitas to the long time viewer. but they are already frantically redeeming her so that's not happening.

wally had powers in flash point so while it was in fact new - that's the logical progression and most probably saw it coming. we see him as a hero at the very start of the season and he's a better hero at the end of the season. that's good but again, not a big needle mover because we saw it most of the season. its not a cliff hanger. like if kF killed julian, that would be a moment to build into season because its like omg, caitlain lost, she's forever KF, etc... but that's not where they seem to be going.

my point is this, i view shows as i do book series. you obviously want the reader to come back for the next book in the series, correct? in order to do that as an author you need to create scenario's that increase the interest or keeps the interest for the next book.

my point of contention is that this feels like a conclusion, not a TBD. this is like the end of the Lord of the rings with Frodo going off with Gandalf but everyone else whose survived is going to have a relatively nice, happy life. or end of the pirates of the caribbean where yeah, will's the new davy jones but he's still ends up with elisabeth, etc. it feels more like a conclusion than something that is supposed to drumb up excitement in season 4.


i'll sum it up as best i can... because iris needs to survive and i believe did... killer frost needs to be remain a villain. it doesn't work the other way because of the story they created. not saying one day you can't redeem KF... but not right now. you don't redeem darth vader at the end of the first star wars.

you can't kill off iris because she's too important and integral to the story. but you also shouldn't go 0 for 2 when its comes to consequences. because otherwise, everything worked out for the better really for the heroes. and while that's a great finish to a story... i don't feel personally like it sets up the next chapter that well.

you save iris and lose caitlain. good story, potentially great.
you save iris, save caitlain, get wally super powers, enhance cisco's abilities... that's a more a happy ending than what you see from an act heading into an intermission IMO.




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i feel cliff hanger wise it's just all been from the show's pov banked on the returning characters.

which is ok, i guess but ....kinda lazy at the same time. and it goes back to not developing the characters they already have.


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killer frost didn't need to be pure evil. just needed to remain a villain thru the season. doubts are fine. and when written well... make a villain much more compelling iMO. and more fitting of her comic character where she was more a greyish character than a villain or hero.

and you don't have to kill off the villain. the third option is she's not around all the time but pops up regularly. she's a sometimes antagonist, sometimes unexpected ally whose motives are cloudy.

and i also don't think she needs to be redeemed. even if she did kill off a main character. because now there's a lasting consequence to the story. it changes everything. that's what made eobard great, was the scene where he kills cisco. or the scene where spoilers

- kylo ren kills han solo - is that you can tell he's conflicted. but he does it anyway. because imo that makes kylo ren's future story really interesting. it makes him a more dynamic character to me.

its kind of like captain cold... where he's kind of evil, kind of not, but generally has an ulterior motive for helping even when he does. but he's not also totally redeemed but you can see sometimes the conflict.

and even in doing the redemption arc, that's fine... but one episode later? after building towards it all season that's it?

because to your point... they're not stretching it into season 4. they're clearly setting up caitlain's return in 3x23 and that's a wrap because there's no rationale for killer frost popping back out in the future now.

and i disagree with the show, fine, keep the actress around if you want but the show needs to change. it needs that shake up and for better or for worse, she's the character in the best position to provide it. because HR dying if he even does, they'll just bring in a different version of wells or wells himself will return.

because otherwise it becomes a little bit like the boy who cried wolf. they tease it, and tease it and tease it but never really commit...people are going to lose interest. it stops becoming a draw in for people who want to see it. because eventually they'll learn that after 1-2 episodes... is over. and it becomes harder and harder for me as a viewer and someone who started out as a caitlain fan to justify her being on the team.

it pains me to say this and i know its not how the show feels - but she's basically an after thought as caitlain. and its not just because they just have her standing at a computer desk but its because of the lack of importance relatively speaking placed on the character. because outside or hr, she's basically low member on he totem pole...

which why making her a villain makes so much bloody sense to me, lol. because she could have anger and resentment and issues with things and now you give these powers and gd...its so easy and simple its perfect. because in all seriousness, outside of cisco and her seasonal LI... unless an episode calls specifically for someone else to care... there's really no evidence to support her place. again, i'm aware the show doesn't share that pov but i think its true.

again, thats why her being a villain works because there is stuff from show canon from seasons 1-3, mostly 2-3, that they could use - which they won't - to fuel her motivation, at least in part. but again, not how they see it obviously. even he idea of savitar needing her for something is laughable because...

even that's an after thought. something that should be big for the character turns into "your only important if this happens first" and then only, even after that first thing happens, we're going to redeem you before you do said thing that was supposedly important so you've not even going to do it after the more important thing happened....


so in some ways its not surprising that she's becoming caitlain again so quickly. because keeping her as kf and a villain requires committing something to the character while putting her at a desk and having julian come back or cisco save her really does not and requires minimal effort and time so it makes sense and keeps star labs whole. so from the show's pov it makes sense i guess.