[Kelly2790]

Originally Posted by Patano (View Post) DA viewers started the journey with all those characters, thinking that it would all lead to somewhere. People didn’t sign up for an endless soap opera with random developments triggered by off-screen events. That’s also why people got so involved with those characters - no one cares much about soap opera characters because no one expects them to ever get an appropriate closure. Here the expectations were different. If I were JF, I would prefer to leave people in the state of being satisfied than shouting “End this already!”. JF did not write a TV series before. IMO it would be better for him to first start and finish a series with smaller number of seasons before embarking on something longer, especially since he had this plan for 3 seasons. But this man does not seem to set himself any limitations. I really, really don’t understand JF. Instead of giving us a great S3 (a great closure), he delivered us a season that could only be described as “preparing the ground for S4”. Chess pieces were removed, but Mr. Fellowes - people are not robots or idiots. You’ve destroyed two most popular ships in the fandom and killed off two much-liked, popular characters. Plus, you broke a lot of people’s hearts.

I agree whole heartedly. Downton needs an end date like LOST did. It needs to find its narrative again and in order to have the strongest possible s4 I think it needs to know if it is going to be it's last. The plots are becoming ridiculous and everything is spelt out for the audience so we know exactly when something is coming, where has the subtly gone. We can only suspend belief so much.

Originally Posted by Patano (View Post) At least S/T and M/M fanbases are numerous - JF won’t escape uncriticized. I hope that now M/M shippers will help us in working against this show.

I'd never work against the show but I'd love to certainly raise our voice in being heard.

[L i N d $ @ y]

And I agree with Edna. So pointless really. Just like with Rose in 3x08. But then again, it was because she was going to be in S4 a lot.

Originally Posted by Kelly2790 (View Post) I agree whole heartedly. Downton needs an end date like LOST did. It needs to find its narrative again and in order to have the strongest possible s4 I think it needs to know if it is going to be it's last. The plots are becoming ridiculous and everything is spelt out for the audience so we know exactly when something is coming, where has the subtly gone. We can only suspend belief so much.

I agree. And sorry but S4 has to blow me away. I don't know in what capacity but it should. At least I expect it to be.

[ScarletCourt]

At least Rose is in S4. They just brought crazy Edna in to point out the grieving. I don't even understand her motivations as a person. At one point, she's saying Sybil could have done better and then next thing you know she's stalking him asking him questions that showed she had absolutely no sense of personal boundaries and assuming that they had a relationship. It was all over the place.

Reusing the Bransons' general plot with the baby (i.e. trouble with labour, baby is born, parents coo over baby, one parent dies leaving the other widowed with a newborn) was just so unbelievably unimaginative that I'm slack jawed by it. What does JF have against childbirth exactly? I need to kill two characters this season so I'll just use the same basic plot!

Also, did anyone else notice that Susan, Marchioness of Flintshire, of "never uses one word when twenty will do" fame (1x06, Violet) was anything but verbose? Also, I find it funny that no one asked about Vera Bates since she worked for the Flintshires and "confirmed" the Pamuk secret for them. Her knowledge of the secret is what drove Bates and Anna apart in S2 and perhaps why she ended up baking the suicide pie.

I still wonder why Jimmy is still working at DA after what happened at the cricket game in 3x08. After seeing the person who kissed you against your will being promoted above you, one would think that you would go find another job, but no, not Jimmy!

[L i N d $ @ y]

As much as I admire Allen's acting, I don't think we need to know that Tom is still grieving because of course he still is. I really would be okay without that SL tbh.

And I agree on reusing the Bransons' general plot with the baby. From Mary going back to Downton on the train to Matthew dying mintues after the baby is born. I mean come on?!?! Does it really have to be right after the baby is born? This again?

And sometimes I get tired with Edith's storylines going around in circles. We've already got 3 seasons of her not finding any love or bliss and it looks like its still going to carry over to S4.

[ScarletCourt]

So much waste having Matthew driving fast and for no reason accidentally being run off the road by a careening lorry coming around the bend. This is not real life! This is fiction, deaths should have meaning not just inexplicable accidents out of the blue!

I know that I've ranted about this before, but I still feel robbed by Sybil's death from childbirth. We didn't have a wedding, we didn't see any of her life in Ireland. The first real S/T plotline in S3 (esp after Sybil was turned into a pregnant prop from 3x01 to 3x04) and she has to die!!!!!!!! Really!!!!!

I'm also unhappy that the baby/her pregnancy was never mentioned by them before 3x05 (The only mention was Martha and in passing). At least Mary and Matthew had scenes where they talked about the child and her pregnancy before he was born. Sybil and Tom got NOTHING!!!!

Oh that reminds me, by the C/S does anyone remember that Martha was in two whole episodes? To me, she was already a distant memory by 3x08. By the C/S, I had already forgotten that she was there.

I also find it interesting that ITV and JF are just throwing all the blame on Dan Stevens right after the C/S. I guess they were surprised by the reaction to Sybil's death and were prepared.

[HarshBench]

They were idiots not to be prepared for the reaction to Sybil's death. And honestly, after that happened, why did they do it again in the CS? Hadn't they learned how angry people would be? They could have just had the last scene be him driving down the road and then revealed the death at the beginning of S4. To end the program with him bleeding from the ear was just horrid. They are such sadists.

Some are complaining that at least in 3.05 the death was moving and emotional. This just kind of......happened. And was senseless. I thought Sybil's death was senseless too, but you got an emotional reaction from the family and the servants and understood just how hard it hit them. Not months later at the beginning of a new season, but immediately.

Does anyone get the sense they were more angry at Dan than at Jessica and so didn't give him the chance to really act out a juicy death scene?

[bijou156]

Originally Posted by ScarletCourt (View Post) Reusing the Bransons' general plot with the baby (i.e. trouble with labour, baby is born, parents coo over baby, one parent dies leaving the other widowed with a newborn) was just so unbelievably unimaginative that I'm slack jawed by it. What does JF have against childbirth exactly? I need to kill two characters this season so I'll just use the same basic plot!

Ditto this. It just gets boring when writers reuse the same format over and over again.

I still feel robbed by Sybil's death from childbirth. We didn't have a wedding, we didn't see any of her life in Ireland. The first real S/T plotline in S3 (esp after Sybil was turned into a pregnant prop from 3x01 to 3x04) and she has to die!!!!!!!! Really!!!!! I'm also unhappy that the baby/her pregnancy was never mentioned by them before 3x05 (The only mention was Martha and in passing). At least Mary and Matthew had scenes where they talked about the child and her pregnancy before he was born. Sybil and Tom got NOTHING!!!!

ITA it makes me sad and angry that S/T fans got the short end of the stick!

They were idiots not to be prepared for the reaction to Sybil's death. And honestly, after that happened, why did they do it again in the CS? Hadn't they learned how angry people would be? They could have just had the last scene be him driving down the road and then revealed the death at the beginning of S4. To end the program with him bleeding from the ear was just horrid. They are such sadists.

I guess that CS was already filmed and so in response to audience response to Sybil's death, ITV & JF prepared the statements beforehand to be ready for release.

It is really maddening this series because you come to love it so much and have good faith that it could not make silly cliched mistakes but they do. It is so disappointing that events have turn out the way they have.

[L i N d $ @ y]

My friend said that Matthew's death was such a cheap payoff and she's not even the biggest M/M fan. The development of their story was well thought of but had Matthew die like that was so unforgivable. I know that they've said death was the only option but does it really have to be that way and in the very last few minutes of the episode? How heartless can they be? I'm not even going to hope for a funeral scene for Matthew for the same reason we didn't get a S/T wedding, Sybil funeral and the rest of M/M's wedding.

[ScarletCourt]

The only reason Sybil died is because JF decided to remove all obstacles to her death. Medical advances were sufficient to enable someone with money to survive eclampsia in 1920. It wasn't like Sybil was in Dublin with no access to the best medical care!

[Kelly2790]

Originally Posted by L i N d $ @ y (View Post) My friend said that Matthew's death was such a cheap payoff and she's not even the biggest M/M fan. The development of their story was well thought of but had Matthew die like that was so unforgivable.

I really like the way your friend worded this. I know I really heavily invested in the Mary/Matthew story and I feel in a lot of ways there has been no payoff.

Yes we have seen Mary grow as a character which I have loved but unless s4 carries on this growth then I fear I'm going to scratching my head thinking it just wasn't worth it. S4 is a huge season for Downton and think it is a real make or break not just season but for the series as a whole. To make me feel watching Downton has been worth it.

[HarshBench]

Originally Posted by ScarletCourt (View Post) The only reason Sybil died is because JF decided to remove all obstacles to her death. Medical advances were sufficient to enable someone with money to survive eclampsia in 1920. It wasn't like Sybil was in Dublin with no access to the best medical care!

I guess both ships feel cheated because it happened on the day of the baby's birth, so it ruined a happy moment. TBH I found Matthew's death kind of more.....insulting? Because he was driving along so happily and then the next minute lying in a ditch. No reaction from the family or anyone, just: The End. And on Christmas.

And I know some M/M (or maybe just Mary) fans who had grown tired of Dan's prevaricating and cryptic statements were almost laughing about it. I know it sounds horrible, but they felt betrayed by him. And they are convinced he will never make it big outside of DA. So they equated his death to Dan Stevens gleefully driving his own career into a ditch.

I was furious about what happened to Sybil, but I do think ending the CS on that note was just so insensitive that it boggles the mind.

[ScarletCourt]

Originally Posted by HarshBench (View Post) I don't know. Apparently they only started checking blood pressure regularly and injecting (whatever it is, I forget the name) to prevent eclamptic seizures routinely in the 1920s in the United States. The UK didn't follow until several decades later. And according to the study I found, in 1920 in the UK about 5% of births ended in the mother's death and eclampsia was one of the four leading causes. C-sections were available but not nearly as safe as they are today. And by the time they were seriously contemplating it she was in active labor and it would have been too late. Up until quite recently, the common Anglican service included a prayer for the safety of mothers in childbirth. I would say Sybil's death and Matthew's were both highly unlikely but still possible. They were soapy and ridiculous, because this is a soap. I guess both ships feel cheated because it happened on the day of the baby's birth, so it ruined a happy moment. TBH I found Matthew's death kind of more.....insulting? Because he was driving along so happily and then the next minute lying in a ditch. No reaction from the family or anyone, just: The End. And on Christmas. And I know some M/M (or maybe just Mary) fans who had grown tired of Dan's prevaricating and cryptic statements were almost laughing about it. I know it sounds horrible, but they felt betrayed by him. And they are convinced he will never make it big outside of DA. So they equated his death to Dan Stevens gleefully driving his own career into a ditch. I was furious about what happened to Sybil, but I do think ending the CS on that note was just so insensitive that it boggles the mind. Kelly, I think the "payoff" for Mary will be to see if she can sustain her softer, nicer persona after suffering such a tragedy and losing her other half. She said she wanted to be "Matthew's Mary" for all eternity and no one else's version. Now that he's gone, will she revert and lash out people or will she be the "wonderful woman" he believed her to be? Personally I thought she was being kind of snotty to Edith in the CS. So we might have to go through that again for a while in S4.

Remember this is the rant thread. No discussion about what people are ranting about unless you are agreeing with them. Please take any and all discussions to the S3 discussion thread. Thanks!

[HarshBench]

Originally Posted by ScarletCourt (View Post) Remember this is the rant thread. No discussion about what people are ranting about unless you are agreeing with them. Please take any and all discussions to the S3 discussion thread. Thanks!

Sorry, deleted it. Sometimes one thought just leads to another. It's my ADD.

[L i N d $ @ y]

Originally Posted by Kelly2790 (View Post) I really like the way your friend worded this. I know I really heavily invested in the Mary/Matthew story and I feel in a lot of ways there has been no payoff. Yes we have seen Mary grow as a character which I have loved but unless s4 carries on this growth then I fear I'm going to scratching my head thinking it just wasn't worth it. S4 is a huge season for Downton and think it is a real make or break not just season but for the series as a whole. To make me feel watching Downton has been worth it.

Exactly. I keep asking myself was this the M/M I loved since S1? It makes me question things I've never even thought of before. Maybe that's why we've had very little and rushed storylines for them this season was because of Dan's exit. I know we've gotten as much as we can but overall the SLs just didn't cut it for me. The S1/S2 will they/won't they drama and then fast forward to Matthew dying in a car crash, alone - was that really the best way to end 8 years of angst and 1 year of wedded bliss? I'm no writer and I have absolutely no idea but right now I just felt flat and empty about all of this.

[HarshBench]

I feel like the reason they showed M/M holding baby Sybil together several times was to make up for the fact that they would get no time as parents together after their baby's birth due to the crash. So they went out of their way to give them some "baby time" together.

No such consideration for S/T fans. They only got one moment together with their baby, and no effort to compensate for it. So M/M got to hold Sybbie together as consolation. No one cared about consoling S/T fans, and we were every bit as devastated and almost as numerous.

BOOOO.