[posterity]

General Discussion:

Although The Vampire Diaries is the main focus, it is a general thread so other shows can be discussed or referenced in comparison to The Vampire Diaries.
This is really a thread open to any discussion about social issues in the entertainment industry.

Topics:

This is a discussion thread so topics that are considered taboo will be discussed here. These can include but are not limited to:

1. Racism
2. Misogyny
3. Sexism
4. Violence against Women
5. Rape

.

Rules and Guidelines:
1. Do not make this a thread to debate on the differences between Stefan vs Damon.
2. Please attack the argument, not the poster. If you disagree then combat logic with logic, but not petty words.
3. Do not troll or disrupt the thread because you did not appreciate what was implied about a favourite character of yours.
4. Tread carefully when discussing any showrunner affiliated with a show being discussed.
5. Have Fun!

[posterity]

I remember being pretty young when I watched this and I've only seen it once. While I don't remember them actually sitting down and using the word rape and talking about it, I do remember the tone of their relationship being completely different. Buffy didn't want anything to do with him and only gave him the time of day when she thought he was crazy and later found out he had a soul (essentially, she thought he was a different person - one she had no interest in forming a romantic relationship with). They seemed to rebuild a relationship from the ground up. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they even shared a kiss all year? Granted, a romantic relationship doesn't need to be physical to be romantic, they obviously did become more than friends near the end, but I feel like Joss made it a point to make sure they didn't become physical again. The problem I have with ships like Damon/Elena is that Damon would essentially do the same thing and it wouldn't be viewed by the audience or the characters as what it was. It wouldn't be viewed by Elena as what it was. Buffy and Spike were all aware of what happened between them. Damon will force feed Elena his blood (essentially a sex act between vampires) and Elena will be kissing him in the next episode. Characters will be calling him selfless and a good person beneath all that bad boy exterior. He will rape and abuse Caroline for many episodes and only be called out on it once when Caroline remembers, and then treated like a friend and ally for the rest of the series. Then any other time it's brought up, it's thrown in Caroline's face like she brought it on herself. Spike got no such treatment in S7, from what I remember all the characters hated him and wanted nothing to do with him.

All of those bolded things are true. It was implied that Spike and Buffy became more than friends towards the end but I feel like Joss was one step ahead because he had both Spike and Buffy acknowledge the seriousness of Spike's actions and this was made obvious by the complete change in their relationship after the fact. They became confidants of sorts but the physicality that marked their relationship was gone.

Damon has forced Elena against her will, using phrases such as "I will break your arm," which is extremely problematic because it is not any better but this time we are no longer acknowleding it. Their answer to Damon's sexism is to suggest that Elena "likes him the way he is." That she can't help staring at his lips and breathing heavily despite the fact that he controlled her and he killed her brother. This is the problematic aspect of their relationship. If they had addressed these issues between them in an acceptable way I would even somehow respect them more as a pairing because it would mean JP saw the problematic nature of her writing.

[kitsune]

Thanks for the thread, Sharon.

Damon has forced Elena against her well, using phrases such as "I will break your arm," which is extremely problematic because it is not any better but this time we are no longer acknowleding it. Their answer to Damon's sexism is to suggest that Elena "likes him the way he is." That she can't help staring at his lips and breathing heavily despite the fact that he controll her and he killed her brother. This is the problematic aspect of their relationship. If they had addressed these issues between them in an acceptable way I would even somehow respect them more as a pairing because it would mean JP saw the problematic nature of her writing.

Actually, I think if JP recognized Damon/Elena for what it was (not a sweeping romance), their relationship could be written much better, more complex and dark. As it is though, JP attempts to write a shallow/harmless bad-boy-loves-good-girl story for the CW, but to me it comes off the complete opposite. You can have this narrative without making Damon so obviously one dimensional, you can have a bad boy without adding in so much sexism and violence against women. These are young viewers watching this show and while I don't think JP has any responsibility for what they're watching, it does show how immature her writing is that she has all these young people rooting for such a vile character/pairing, trying to excuse every single thing he does and write it off as romance.

[Jaime Bee]

Originally Posted by posterity (View Post) All of those bolded things are true. It was implied that Spike and Buffy became more than friends towards the end but I feel like Joss was one step ahead because he had both Spike and Buffy acknowledge the seriousness of Spike's actions and this was made obvious by the complete change in their relationship after the fact. They became confidants of sorts but the physicality that marked their relationship was gone. Damon has forced Elena against her will, using phrases such as "I will break your arm," which is extremely problematic because it is not any better but this time we are no longer acknowleding it. Their answer to Damon's sexism is to suggest that Elena "likes him the way he is." That she can't help staring at his lips and breathing heavily despite the fact that he controlled her and he killed her brother. This is the problematic aspect of their relationship. If they had addressed these issues between them in an acceptable way I would even somehow respect them more as a pairing because it would mean JP saw the problematic nature of her writing.

I agree with what you said and the quote. Joss did though say the last night they spent together was up to the audience and we even can think they made love and as a shipper I go back and forth with this and whether they just were in each others arms like the other nights. I really think this approach for example was well thought out and basically everything was handled the way it should have been Season 7. The way JP writes and doesn't acknowledge the horrible things Damon has done and just sweeps them under the rug like they never happened is wrong and why I couldn't keep shipping DE. Damon continues to do all these terrible things and we are still supposed to root for him.

This is why the comparison of Damon to Spike bothers me So much.

Thanks for making this thread.

[Jerry D]

I’ve seen rampant sexism on a lot of shows over the years, and it’s really evident on one show that I watch, Mad Men. Women are treated horribly on that show, and the men, for the most part, get away with their reprehensible behavior. It can be somewhat excused on Mad Men because the show is set in the 1960’s, but I’ve also seen it on shows like Gossip Girl, where the character of Chuck, who attempted to rape two of the female characters in the Pilot, and who prostituted his own girlfriend to get his hotel back was presented as a “misunderstood hero/bad boy who was redeemed by love” and was loved by a lot of female fans here. From what I’ve seen of Damon, he falls into the same mold as Chuck, and I really don’t like the idea of a brutal rapist or near rapist being presented as a romantic leading man on shows like these.

[kitsune]

Joss said that? I think that would've been a bad decision had he decided to include it. It didn't seem like they were there yet.

Jerry, I tried to watch Mad Men but gave up after S2. The thing with GG is the writers really stopped caring, watching the BTS thing before the finale you could see they all considered it a joke. JP, sadly, feels very passionate about her writing and really does believe it to be quality.

[Jaime Bee]

Originally Posted by funsponge (View Post) Joss said that? I think that would've been a bad decision had he decided to include it. It didn't seem like they were there yet.

It's good it wasn't included and we got the fade to black instead.

As shipper a part of me I admit I would have loved to see it and at least a kiss but like I said that's the shipper in me. I hope that makes sense.

[posterity]

Jerry, Damon can be classified as a rapist in my opinion because he has compelled Andie and Caroline not to fear being sexually intimidate with him. I liken that to date rape, where you take away a woman's agency to choose for herself, even if the act is not as physically brutal as a typical rape. This needs to be addressed but instead he is presented as a misunderstood hero, and that somehow takes away from the true potential of this storyline as Steph pointed out. If Julie Plec would shy away from portraying her "bad boys" as one dimensional boys suffering "man pain" then it would be more complex/dark rather than shown as something romantic. If Elena had her sense of agency, then Delena would be a lot different and less offensive.

I go back and forth with this and whether they just were in each others arms like the other nights.

I go back and forth as well because as pointed out, I don't think they were there. I think she was beginning to trust him again when the series ended and it was clear they had romantic feelings for each other but I am not sure if she was ready to be with him sexually. I say this is a massive Spke and Buffy fan so I don't get the comparisons to Damon either because I feel like once Spike realized the seriousness of what he had done, he was prepared to never be intimidate with Buffy again. He never supposed that his manpain made him entitled to be with Buffy as we tend to see with Damon and sometimes Klaus.

[kitsune]

Originally Posted by Jaime Bee (View Post) It's good it wasn't included and we got the fade to black instead. As shipper a part of me I admit I would have loved to see it and at least a kiss but like I said that's the shipper in me. I hope that makes sense.

I understand.

What Damon did with Caroline cannot be disputed as anything but rape. I am baffled when people try to argue this point. She was in bed screaming as he bit her neck. She continued to be his blood sack and lap dog after this. To imply she willingly slept with Damon during this time, is laughable. She was compelled to do what he wanted.

There was actually a good post the other day by mysticdownfall that talked about Damon's rape and violence against women:

I’m going to respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree with this entire post because what you have written is textbook victim blaming, abuse erasure, and abuse/rape apology. It also directly plays into rape culture because its asking the reader to excuse Damon for having sex with Elena because poor Damon didn’t know [about the sire bond]. It’s saying that poor Damon was a victim of circumstance, but the truth is that he wasn’t. There were several things Damon did know: 1) He knew Elena was experiencing significant mind-altering hallucinations that caused her to violently stab her brother in the neck the day before, 2) He knew Elena was experiencing severe suicidal thoughts that she was acting upon at the bridge (she had taken off her ring), 3) He knew that her brother had tried to kill her just earlier that day, 4) He knew that she felt significantly isolated from her friends, 5) He knew that she had broken up with his brother the day before (and say what you want about Stefan being an *******, i don’t care, he still knew what Stefan meant to her). So Damon knew how vulnerable she was and he didn’t care. He proceeded to do probably the last thing a person should do with someone who is in that kind of mind state, sired or not. And to act like this behavior is uncharacteristic of Damon is a flat-out lie? He took advantage of Elena in 4x02 when she was vulnerable and starving. He had Elena perform a sex act on him without her consent. He neglected to tell her that bloodsharing is the vampire equivalent of a sex act and instead encouraged her not to tell his brother because he knew it was wrong. So Damon is absolutely the villain in the situation. He absolutely was a creepy entitled ******* who has canonically never cared about Elena’s ability to consent (see: season 1-4 and especially 2x01 and 2x20). The truth is that Damon did not make it abundantly clear that he didn’t want to sleep with Elena. He ordered her to get into her car and come to him after she confessed she loved him. He told her he wanted to throw her in his bed and never let her leave. He told her that it would make him happy to know what she felt was real instead of apologizing or showing any concern for the fact that their sex was non-consensual. In fact, had you watched 4x08 you can see that he’s only concerned for himself. Not one ounce of remorse for being the reason she was starving or killed Connor. The fact is that Damon is fairly good at gaslighting his victims. Much like Katherine, he often characterizes his abuse as love and controls his victims this way. And for someone who has been someone’s sire in the past, who has raped several other people including Caroline and Andie, the fact that he didn’t pick up on Elena obeying his requests (when he so quickly picked up on Tyler being sired to Klaus) shows how out-of-touch and self-involved he is. If you want to celebrate Damon’s characterization of being your typical entitled white male frat boy then by all means, do it. But trying to reframe Damon and his actions this year as anything but that of an entitled gaslighting abuser contradicts everything we have seen in canon (e.g., getting her to perform a sex act on him, refusing to let her go, preferring her to be sired than being cured, and no remorse or concern for the direct orders her gave her which led to her suicidal state).

[london grammar]

posterity, I didn't see/answer your question in the other thread, so I'll answer it here:
I guess My Mad Fat Diary diary would be considered a groundbreaking show. You never see an overweight female lead. But aside from that, the show is really well-written, imo. One of the better teen shows I've seen.

GG was a mess. Chuck is horrible. Meh.

[Jaime Bee]

Originally Posted by posterity (View Post) Jerry, Damon can be classified as a rapist in my opinion because he has compelled Andie and Caroline not to fear being sexually intimidate with him. I liken that to date rape, where you take away a woman's agency to choose for herself, even if the act is not as physically brutal as a typical rape. This needs to be addressed but instead he is presented as a misunderstood hero, and that somehow takes away from the true potential of this storyline as Steph pointed out. If Julie Plec would shy away from portraying her "bad boys" as one dimensional boys suffering "man pain" then it would be more complex/dark rather than shown as something romantic. If Elena had her sense of agency, then Delena would be a lot different and less offensive. I go back and forth as well because as pointed out, I don't think they were there. I think she was beginning to trust him again when the series ended and it was clear they had romantic feelings for each other but I am not sure if she was ready to be with him sexually. I say this is a massive Spke and Buffy fan so I don't get the comparisons to Damon either because I feel like once Spike realized the seriousness of what he had done, he was prepared to never be intimidate with Buffy again. He never supposed that his manpain made him entitled to be with Buffy as we tend to see with Damon and sometimes Klaus.

I consider what Damon did to Andie Caroline and I'm sure countless other women a type of rape.

Spike didn't expect anything from Buffy. He didn't even seek her out after he got his soul until he realized she needed help to fight a new evil. He tried to hide even getting his soul back and didn't tell Buffy until he broke down in the church and she sought him out. He didn't force her to listen or be there for him in any way.

The sire bond is one of the most sick things I've ever seen and fans actually find it romantic.

[kitsune]

I consider what Damon did to Andie Caroline and I'm sure countless other women a type of rape.

I understand what you're trying to say but rape is rape is rape. We have to do away with these 'type of rape' things and just call it what it is. Andie and Caroline did not give consent to have sex. That is rape.

[ale-la-pazza1]

Of all the "bad boys" Damon is surely the worst and the fact that he's so worshipped by some fans make me question the intelligence of the general viewers.

[Jerry D]

What I also don’t like on shows like these is that the writers will excuse the behavior of the male Anti-Hero by giving them a “tortured background” like Chuck’s horrible treatment by his father and his being led to believe that his mother died having him, only to find out that his mother had abandoned him, and Don Draper on Mad Men having a prostitute for a mother who did die having him and being treated like a pariah by his father to the point where he assumed another man’s identity to make a fresh start and get out of combat in Korea. To me, having a bad childhood doesn’t excuse anyone for treating women like chattel, but a lot of female fans seem to swoon over these “misunderstood bad boys.”

What really gets me is that a lot of these shows are helmed by women, and it appalls me that a woman would depict other women in such a demeaning and sexist way.

[Jaime Bee]

Originally Posted by funsponge (View Post) I understand what you're trying to say but rape is rape is rape. We have to do away with these 'type of rape' things and just call it what it is. Andie and Caroline did not give consent to have sex. That is rape.

You are right.

I guess I should have just said rape because it is what it is.