[jediwands]

I find it incredibly unselfish and amazing Andy was willing to keep the affair secret. It shows how much he not only loved Julia, but the love he also had for his children. He knew deep down (had to) if he would have revealed to Ephram very early on his mother cheated on his father, it would have made the tough times between father/son significantly lessen. Andy had to have known (since he's human) if he makes that reveal, it helps with Ephram constantly rejecting him. He didn't care. He was willing to forever keep this a secret even if it meant he would never totally heal his relationship with Ephram. I think that was the most selfless act of love Andy demonstrated. Which is why I will never completely blame Andy for telling Madison not to tell Ephram about the pregnancy. Was it wrong? Yes. Misguided? Yes. Destined to blow up in his face? Yes. But when you take a look at why Andy wanted to go there, it was out of love and protection. He thought it was the right decision. It wasn't, we all know that, but I don't think anyone can say it wasn't (inside his mind and heart) out of love for his son.

[break the window]

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) I find it incredibly unselfish and amazing Andy was willing to keep the affair secret.

I'm thinking that Andy would've told Ephram at some point Ephram ever asked about the marriag at some point. Andy knew he couldn't keep it a secret any longer. Andy didn't care what Ephram said about him or what Delia said about him. Maybe in some aspects, Andy felt like Ephram needed that time to vent and Andy was never around for Ephram to talk to. So Ephram was talking to Andy, more so yelling, but at least he was getting out his feelings...that is coming from Andy's POV...not mine lol

Andy loved Julia SO MUCH, that he was willing to keep her on that pedastal for his children to admire her, even in her death. That shows true loyalty right there. Andy, I want to think, worked so hard and so long hours so he could provide that wonderful, lavish life for his wife and children. For Andy to come to Everwood and offer free health care and meds because he has a healthy NEST EGG?! What type of salary was he making in New York? Must've been double digit millions ten fold. I'm still baffled on how he was able to do that, medicine, even back 15 years ago, wasn't cheap.

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) Andy had to have known (since he's human) if he makes that reveal, it helps with Ephram constantly rejecting him. He didn't care. He was willing to forever keep this a secret even if it meant he would never totally heal his relationship with Ephram.

Andy never thought he would be able to heal his relationship with Ephram. He really didn't have a relationship with either of his students that went passed handing out the credit card and being there every once in a while. Andy didn't really k now anything about his kids, honestly. Julia was the one who took care of everything and on some levels she was okay with that. Also, I think Andy revealing the affair would make Ephram resent Julia as well. We already knew Ephram hated the parent he ended up with, why should he have to hate both parents? I take back the part where Andy didn't know his children at all. Andy and Ephram were like two pieces of cloth cut from the same strand, Andy knew how Ephram would react, he would've reacted the same way. On some level, Andy was okay with being hated as long as he could keep Julia's memory of being a good wife and mother alive

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) Which is why I will never completely blame Andy for telling Madison not to tell Ephram about the pregnancy. Was it wrong? Yes. Misguided? Yes. Destined to blow up in his face? Yes. But when you take a look at why Andy wanted to go there, it was out of love and protection. He thought it was the right decision. It wasn't, we all know that, but I don't think anyone can say it wasn't (inside his mind and heart) out of love for his son.

I know we put Andy in a place that is unfair when we talk about Madisongate lol

Honestly, what was he supposed to do? A father finds out his 16 (or 17) year old son got his 21 year old girlfriend pregnant? She ambushed him? Was that her plan? Maybe? Was it her plan to just give the baby up for adoption and for Ephram to never know? Who knows. She was just as scared as anyone would be.

Honestly, if she didn't know what to do, Madison should've went to Dr. Abbott. In confidence, he would not have to tell Andy or Ephram. If the baby was healthy, which it was, there would be no reason for Ephram or Andy to ever know. Sure, it would have taken a toll on Dr. Abbott professionally and personally, and eventually we know that Ephram would've found out because he saw Madison in New York. For Ephram to find out that Andy knew and my goodness, orchestrated the deception, I think that hurt worse than anything else in the entire situation.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by fulfilledღ (View Post) I'm thinking that Andy would've told Ephram at some point Ephram ever asked about the marriag at some point. Andy knew he couldn't keep it a secret any longer. Andy didn't care what Ephram said about him or what Delia said about him. Maybe in some aspects, Andy felt like Ephram needed that time to vent and Andy was never around for Ephram to talk to. So Ephram was talking to Andy, more so yelling, but at least he was getting out his feelings...that is coming from Andy's POV...not mine lol

LOL.

I totally agree the affair would eventually be revealed. What do you think about Delia's part in this? Do you feel Delia had a right to know eventually when she got older or would it be best for Andy and Ephram to keep it from Delia?

Andy loved Julia SO MUCH, that he was willing to keep her on that pedastal for his children to admire her, even in her death. That shows true loyalty right there. Andy, I want to think, worked so hard and so long hours so he could provide that wonderful, lavish life for his wife and children. For Andy to come to Everwood and offer free health care and meds because he has a healthy NEST EGG?! What type of salary was he making in New York? Must've been double digit millions ten fold. I'm still baffled on how he was able to do that, medicine, even back 15 years ago, wasn't cheap.

I totally wonder about the financial aspect as well. Andy must have been a top, top neurosurgeon in NYC. What I wonder is how long was Andy working as a top neurosurgeon and how much did he make in NYC? Was he a millionaire when they moved to Everwood? That is the only way I could see it being possible for him to offer free health care and medicine.

Andy never thought he would be able to heal his relationship with Ephram. He really didn't have a relationship with either of his students that went passed handing out the credit card and being there every once in a while. Andy didn't really k now anything about his kids, honestly. Julia was the one who took care of everything and on some levels she was okay with that. Also, I think Andy revealing the affair would make Ephram resent Julia as well. We already knew Ephram hated the parent he ended up with, why should he have to hate both parents? I take back the part where Andy didn't know his children at all. Andy and Ephram were like two pieces of cloth cut from the same strand, Andy knew how Ephram would react, he would've reacted the same way. On some level, Andy was okay with being hated as long as he could keep Julia's memory of being a good wife and mother alive

Nice analysis. Totally agree.

I know we put Andy in a place that is unfair when we talk about Madisongate lol Honestly, what was he supposed to do? A father finds out his 16 (or 17) year old son got his 21 year old girlfriend pregnant? She ambushed him? Was that her plan? Maybe? Was it her plan to just give the baby up for adoption and for Ephram to never know? Who knows. She was just as scared as anyone would be. Honestly, if she didn't know what to do, Madison should've went to Dr. Abbott. In confidence, he would not have to tell Andy or Ephram. If the baby was healthy, which it was, there would be no reason for Ephram or Andy to ever know. Sure, it would have taken a toll on Dr. Abbott professionally and personally, and eventually we know that Ephram would've found out because he saw Madison in New York. For Ephram to find out that Andy knew and my goodness, orchestrated the deception, I think that hurt worse than anything else in the entire situation.

Very true. I will never understand why Madison went to Andy. It was so unfair for everyone involved. She had multiple other options... Harold or endless places in Denver. She didn't have to go to Andy. It's not like Madison and Andy were close, just the opposite. She did everything she said she wouldn't do (she hurt Ephram, made the entire situation dramatic and tense) after Andy begged her not to. They were not friendly in the least. Why she went to Andy I will never understand. It should have been Harold or the endless clinics and doctors in Denver. She wasn't going to Andy for support in other words because they didn't have that kind of relationship. If they had a supportive relationship or even interacted while she was illegally with Ephram I could see it. But no, Madison went against everything Andy requested, they were not friendly, close, or had any sort of relationship. She went to him as a patient expecting him to only be a doctor even though he was Ephram's father... did she expect him to give her supportive advice once again ignoring the fact that he is the father of the boy she got pregnant with? It made no sense but Madison was doing what Madison always did... making an already horrible situation much worse.

[Jerry D]

Excellent posts Patricia and Michelle. I think it's safe to say that Andy was a millionaire when he left New York and went to Everwood, which is why he could afford to give free medical care to the residents of the town. I also remember that Jake mentioned that Andy had some kind of patent on some medical device that he had invented which still gave him an income. A top neurosurgeon in New York would make serious money, so I think he was pretty much set financially which is why he could do what he did.

I think that Madison went to Andy because he was Ephram's father and she wanted some advice as to what to do about the situation, so in that context, I could understand why she went to him. As much as we all dislike her (and we do! ) she was a scared young woman who found herself with an unwanted pregnancy with her by now ex-boyfriend (emphasis on the boy, which still disgusts me) and she didn't know where to turn, so she turned to Andy, but instead of getting support and understanding from him, he ordered her not to tell Ephram and offered to pay her off to keep her away from him. I always found it ironic that he told her that he wanted Ephram to hold on to his innocence, because that innocence was over with as soon as him and Madison slept together. Still though, I can understand why he wanted to protect Ephram, but by doing so he destroyed all the progress that he made with his son.

[Jerry D]

I also wanted to say that I thought that Ephram was horribly unfair to Andy for so long. Yes, Andy was totally focused on his career and he neglected his family to a point before Julia died but if he was such a horrible father, why did Delia adore him so much? People can get caught up in their careers and neglect their families, but Julia didn’t particularly seem to mind raising the kids somewhat on her own, and she contributed to Ephram’s disdain for his father by disparagingly referring to him as “The Great Doctor Brown,” with Ephram, but he also gave them a very good life in a fancy apartment in a exclusive neighborhood in New York when Julia was alive, so it’s not like he was an absentee father or a deadbeat father, he was just a father who put his career first, which he later regretted and he did his best to make it up to his children after Julia died. I used to cringe at some of the things that Ephram would say to his father, and if I ever spoke like that to my father, I would have had my head handed to me.

I was glad that Andy told Ephram about Julia’s affair and that he told him that if he ever accused him of cheating on Julia he wouldn’t be responsible for what he would do to him, because Ephram was beyond horrible to Andy for so long, and he deserved to have Andy tell him that he had gone too far.

In some ways though I could understand what Ephram was going through because I grew up in New York City and I was very happy there and I had a lot of friends (we didn’t have a fancy apartment in a fancy neighborhood in Manhattan though, as we lived in a four room apartment in The Bronx and I shared a room with my sisters) but when we moved to New Jersey I was miserable and I blamed my parents for moving me away from my friends and from a neighborhood that I loved, but that neighborhood was changing and we went from living in a small apartment to a nice house, but I did resent my parents for moving us to New Jersey, but in looking back they were trying to give us a better life, and they did give us a better life, but I didn’t see it that way at the time.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) Excellent posts Patricia and Michelle. I think it's safe to say that Andy was a millionaire when he left New York and went to Everwood, which is why he could afford to give free medical care to the residents of the town. I also remember that Jake mentioned that Andy had some kind of patent on some medical device that he had invented which still gave him an income. A top neurosurgeon in New York would make serious money, so I think he was pretty much set financially which is why he could do what he did.

Good catch, Jerry! Jake did say that. Yes, Andy was definitely a millionaire.

Just for the fun of it, I looked up present day top neurosurgeons in NYC salary:

Last updated: June 03, 2019 The average pay for a Physician Neurosurgeon is $722,384 a year and $347 an hour in New York-Manhattan, New York, United States.

That’s even just average.

Bottom line... Andy was definitely a millionaire. LOL.

I think that Madison went to Andy because he was Ephram's father and she wanted some advice as to what to do about the situation, so in that context, I could understand why she went to him. As much as we all dislike her (and we do! ) she was a scared young woman who found herself with an unwanted pregnancy with her by now ex-boyfriend (emphasis on the boy, which still disgusts me) and she didn't know where to turn, so she turned to Andy, but instead of getting support and understanding from him, he ordered her not to tell Ephram and offered to pay her off to keep her away from him. I always found it ironic that he told her that he wanted Ephram to hold on to his innocence, because that innocence was over with as soon as him and Madison slept together. Still though, I can understand why he wanted to protect Ephram, but by doing so he destroyed all the progress that he made with his son.

You’re right. It does make sense. I guess if I were Madison I’d be so embarrassed going to Andy given how much I disrespected him and went against his wishes. But this was Madison. Ephram and Madison should have listened to Andy in the first place. They didn’t. That is what burns me up so much. Andy looked like the devil for telling Madison not to say anything but if they would’ve listened to him in the first place it never would’ve happened. Madison’s damn lucky the authorities didn’t get involved because she could’ve gone to jail for the illegal relationship. Also, if I’m Ephram... eventually, I would have felt the need to apologize to Andy for not listening to him. I just can’t relate to any of this and that’s always been my struggle. When I was Ephram’s age, and my parents told me to do or not do something, I listened. I didn’t always love it be they were my parents and I always did what they said. Always. Even when I’d tell a lie or two about little things like most teenagers do, I always felt guilty even if it wasn’t a big deal. I listened to my parents, period. That is why I feel for Andy. Ephram should’ve listened to him. He didn’t. All hell broke loose and it was Andy in the end paying for bad mistakes he tried to prevent in the first place.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) I also wanted to say that I thought that Ephram was horribly unfair to Andy for so long. Yes, Andy was totally focused on his career and he neglected his family to a point before Julia died but if he was such a horrible father, why did Delia adore him so much? People can get caught up in their careers and neglect their families, but Julia didn’t particularly seem to mind raising the kids somewhat on her own, and she contributed to Ephram’s disdain for his father by disparagingly referring to him as “The Great Doctor Brown,” with Ephram, but he also gave them a very good life in a fancy apartment in a exclusive neighborhood in New York when Julia was alive, so it’s not like he was an absentee father or a deadbeat father, he was just a father who put his career first, which he later regretted and he did his best to make it up to his children after Julia died. I used to cringe at some of the things that Ephram would say to his father, and if I ever spoke like that to my father, I would have had my head handed to me. I was glad that Andy told Ephram about Julia’s affair and that he told him that if he ever accused him of cheating on Julia he wouldn’t be responsible for what he would do to him, because Ephram was beyond horrible to Andy for so long, and he deserved to have Andy tell him that he had gone too far. In some ways though I could understand what Ephram was going through because I grew up in New York City and I was very happy there and I had a lot of friends (we didn’t have a fancy apartment in a fancy neighborhood in Manhattan though, as we lived in a four room apartment in The Bronx and I shared a room with my sisters) but when we moved to New Jersey I was miserable and I blamed my parents for moving me away from my friends and from a neighborhood that I loved, but that neighborhood was changing and we went from living in a small apartment to a nice house, but I did resent my parents for moving us to New Jersey, but in looking back they were trying to give us a better life, and they did give us a better life, but I didn’t see it that way at the time.

Excellent thoughts, Jerry.

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) Good catch, Jerry! Jake did say that. Yes, Andy was definitely a millionaire. Just for the fun of it, I looked up present day top neurosurgeons in NYC salary: That’s even just average. Bottom line... Andy was definitely a millionaire. LOL.

Wow! That isn't surprising though. Most doctors, and especially surgeons, make a lot of money, but they also pay out a lot in malpractice insurance, etc. That's what did Harold's practice in due to Linda's HIV, because he couldn't get insurance.

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) You’re right. It does make sense. I guess if I were Madison I’d be so embarrassed going to Andy given how much I disrespected him and went against his wishes. But this was Madison. Ephram and Madison should have listened to Andy in the first place. They didn’t. That is what burns me up so much. Andy looked like the devil for telling Madison not to say anything but if they would’ve listened to him in the first place it never would’ve happened. Madison’s damn lucky the authorities didn’t get involved because she could’ve gone to jail for the illegal relationship. Also, if I’m Ephram... eventually, I would have felt the need to apologize to Andy for not listening to him. I just can’t relate to any of this and that’s always been my struggle. When I was Ephram’s age, and my parents told me to do or not do something, I listened. I didn’t always love it be they were my parents and I always did what they said. Always. Even when I’d tell a lie or two about little things like most teenagers do, I always felt guilty even if it wasn’t a big deal. I listened to my parents, period. That is why I feel for Andy. Ephram should’ve listened to him. He didn’t. All hell broke loose and it was Andy in the end paying for bad mistakes he tried to prevent in the first place.

I'll be honest and say that I often didn't listen to my parents when I was a rebellious teenager when I was Ephram's age. Like i said, I resented my parents for moving us out of The Bronx, where I was happy, to New Jersey, where I was miserable (at least in my Grammar School and High School years, but I was later happy in New Jersey when I went to College) so I could empathize with Ephram a lot, but I didn't have as fractious a relationship with my parents as Ephram had with Andy.

Ephram and Madison's entire relationship had wrong written all over it, and I hated how she treated Ephram and I hated how obsessed he became with her. Their relationship was an illicit disaster and I hate that we were never allowed to be free of her and the repercussions of their relationship.

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) Excellent thoughts, Jerry.

Thanks!

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) Wow! That isn't surprising though. Most doctors, and especially surgeons, make a lot of money, but they also pay out a lot in malpractice insurance, etc. That's what did Harold's practice in due to Linda's HIV, because he couldn't get insurance.

Definitely. A good childhood friend of mine is an eye surgeon. Her husband (she met him in medical school) is a urologic surgeon. They definitely make a lot of money but like you said, there are other factors involved. Also, her husband, Kyle, works at a university research hospital so he doesn’t make as much money as he could elsewhere.

I'll be honest and say that I often didn't listen to my parents when I was a rebellious teenager when I was Ephram's age. Like i said, I resented my parents for moving us out of The Bronx, where I was happy, to New Jersey, where I was miserable (at least in my Grammar School and High School years, but I was later happy in New Jersey when I went to College) so I could empathize with Ephram a lot, but I didn't have as fractious a relationship with my parents as Ephram had with Andy.

I never knew how difficult it was for you making the move. Were your sisters upset with the move as well?

Ephram and Madison's entire relationship had wrong written all over it, and I hated how she treated Ephram and I hated how obsessed he became with her. Their relationship was an illicit disaster and I hate that we were never allowed to be free of her and the repercussions of their relationship.

Amen!

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) I never knew how difficult it was for you making the move. Were your sisters upset with the move as well?

No, because they were younger (10 and 6 when we moved, I was 12) so it wasn't as hard for them. I was always more sensitive than them and the move affected me a lot more than it did them.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) No, because they were younger (10 and 6 when we moved, I was 12) so it wasn't as hard for them. I was always more sensitive than them and the move affected me a lot more than it did them.

I see. Makes sense. 12 versus 10 and 6 is a big deal as far as development. I can definitely see why it affected you more.

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) I see. Makes sense. 12 versus 10 and 6 is a big deal as far as development. I can definitely see why it affected you more.

The thing is too is that kids at 12 to 16 or so can be cruel, and I was picked on a lot, where I wasn't really picked on when I lived in New York, so I could relate to how Ephram was picked on when he moved from New York to Everwood.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) The thing is too is that kids at 12 to 16 or so can be cruel, and I was picked on a lot, where I wasn't really picked on when I lived in New York, so I could relate to how Ephram was picked on when he moved from New York to Everwood.

You really could relate to Ephram in so many ways. I can absolutely see why you would flat out detest moving to NJ and leaving NYC. Were you picked on due to religion or culture? I know you moved to a non-Christian city in NJ. Did that have something to do with it or unrelated entirely?

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) You really could relate to Ephram in so many ways. I can absolutely see why you would flat out detest moving to NJ and leaving NYC. Were you picked on due to religion or culture? I know you moved to a non-Christian city in NJ. Did that have something to do with it or unrelated entirely?

No, it was due to the fact that I was skinny and quiet and I didn't fit in with the cliques at my Grammar School and High School. Anyone who was quiet like me was picked on and called a "fag" and as a result I was basically miserable. I also wasn't athletic (except that I ran track) so that factored in to my being picked on too.