Trollheart

Bolded: apologies. I tried to make it clear this was not a personal attack, just my response to your comment some time earlier when I spoke about you. I don't mean any offence; perhaps as PR says, I don't know you well enough (or at all) and don't get you. I won't mention it again.

And as for your having seen Babylon 5: drat, drat and double drat! I had a whole speech about how people who haven't seen something shouldn't criticise it. AND I stayed up late into the night composing it. What a waste. Only one thing to do with that, then!

So, in conclusion, Babylon 5 good, DS9 good too. Enterprise sucks.

Right then, after diverting through World War II and Babylon 5, let's move swiftly (or not so swiftly) on, shall we?

“You hit me! Picard never hit me!” - Q
“I’m not Picard.” - Sisko

Episode title: “Q-Less”
Season: 1
Basic plot: Vash comes to DS9 with Q in tow
Trollheart of the past: Ah it’s Q in DS9! How can it fail?
Importance: 2 (really not as important as you might think; Q is not ever on DS9 again. Guess he didn’t appreciate being punched out!)
Crisis point(s) if any: The station hurtling towards the wormhole. That’s got to be a crisis point in anyone’s book
Original transmission date: February 8 1993
Writer(s): Hannah-Louise Shearer (teleplay by Robert Hewitt Wolfe)
Director: Paul Lynch
Stardate:*
Main character(s) in Plot: Sisko, Vash, Quark, Q
Main character(s) in Subplot (if any):
Guest character(s): Vash, Q
Not appearing:
Villain/Monster (if any): None (unless you count Q) - the alien? Ah leave it alone! It's just a baby trying to get home. How can you can that a monster, you monster?
Themes: Greed, rejection, power, bargaining, trade, new life, interference, arrogance oh I could go on but let's just say Q and leave it at that.
Deaths: 0
Lives saved (episode): 0
Lives saved (cumulative): 2
Locations:

Station:
Promenade
Docking Bay
Sickbay
Sisko’s office
Assay office
Vash’s quarters
Ops


Space:
Wormhole

Other:
Shuttlecraft interior

Space battles: 0
Bodycount

Historical
0
Incidental
0
Direct
0
Total: 0
Running total: 5

Combat factor: 0
Planets mentioned: Epsilon Hydra VII, Betazed, Miraden, Earth, Eratrang VII, Brax, Kitaros V
Aliens: 6
Mysteries: What is causing all the power outages across the station?
Patients in sickbay: 1
Odo v humanity: n/a
Odo 2 - Humanity 1
Character scores:
Sisko 35
Kira 10
Odo 10
Quark 95
O’Brien 15
Dax 10
Bashir 10
Jake 0
Nog 0
Rom 5
Q N/a (look he's only in the entire seven seasons this once. What's the point?)

Shuttlecraft: 1 (Ganges)
Admirals: 0
Other Starfleet Officers: 0
First contact: 0
Shades of Grey: 0
Religion: 0
Humour: 5
The Ferengi Factor: 5
Episode rating: 4/10
Episode score: 350
Trollheart of the present: Well I always loved Vash, and she lives up to her sketchy reputation, but Q is vastly underused, so kind of meh really.

Ah, the sexy Vash from “Captain’s Holiday” returns to add a dash of excitement and bad-girl glamour to an episode! Always liked her. And couple her with Q (not literally of course) you have the elements for surely one of the best episodes yet. I mean, is there an episode with Q that isn’t great? He’s the Mister Burns of Star Trek, isn’t he? He always injects a little humour into the episode, and to be perfectly honest, Vash is the ideal foil for him. Pity they never considered a spinoff series starring those two. We learn here an interesting thing about Ferengi, that their very large ears are in fact an erogenous zone, and something called Oomax involves, um, caressing and stroking them, and it seems Vash has a talent for it. Quark’s mercenary nature (well, he is a Ferengi after all) comes to the fore as he tries to arrange an auction to sell her - no doubt stolen - valuable artifacts.


"Foolish life forms! You think a simple set of traffic lights will stop me?"

Tell you what, there are a lot of extras acting damn weird in this episode, and it’s nothing to do with the storyline. As Vash heads to the auction, one guy behind her is grinning like an idiot for about twenty seconds, then when Q leaves her and she moves off, everyone looks like they’re afraid they’ll catch something from her, shuddering and cringing away from her. Mind you, that might be in reaction to Q having just aged her about 90 years for a few seconds, but still, odd. This is only the second time the station has moved, the first being to position itself by the wormhole. This time it’s moving towards the wormhole, which can’t be good.

Is this the first time one of Q's "personal holo simulations", as it were, works against him, when Picard knocks him down in the boxing ring? I don't think he was expecting that! Problem with these immortal and omnipotent life forms is they all have glass jaws. Sisko floats, as Bender once said, like a floatbot and stings like an automated stinging machine! BAM! Take that, and while you're at it, get the hell off my station!

Perhaps at this point it was hard to come up with new ideas for Q, but really, the episode kind of works more around than about him, centring mostly on Vash. Somewhat borrowing from TNG’s pilot episode here, with the unexpected emergence of an alien lifeform, and also nodding to the later “Galaxy’s Child," to say nothing of a look back to "True Q". I always found it interesting how quickly Q changed from feared nemesis to comic relief/whipping boy. Guess the old Continuum just ain't what it used to be.

Back with the scoring in a bit.
And here it is.
Hardly worth waiting for, to be honest. The only ones to move at all are Quark, whose score allows him to switches places with Dax, dropping her to number 7 while he takes the number six slot. Also Rom edges slightly up, climbing into the top 10 alongside his son. Other than that, it's as you were. Not a lot happening that involves much of the crew, this episode being almost entirely devoted to Q and Vash.

1: Kira
2: Sisko
3: Odo
4: Bashir
5: OBrien (Miles)
6: Quark
7: Dax
8: O'Brien (Keiko)
9: Jake
10: Nog and Rom

PhoenixRising

It's okay, Trollheart. You and sum1 both made valid points.

Okay, since I haven't seen much of DS9, I can't really comment on all that stuff you just posted.

As for Enterprise, I think the storyline with T'Pol and Trip made it worthwhile. Too bad it was probably the only thing that made it worthwhile.



Yep, I was the same way, Chris. I skipped over DS9 and then I decided to give Voyager a try, but I quickly tired of Voyager as well. To be honest, after The Next Generation went off the air, I really couldn't get into many of the other Star Trek spinoffs, and I became more interested in The X-Files by that point. I only got into B5 out of curiosity after seeing the B5 prequel movie, 'In The Beginning..."



Hi, sum1! It's okay.

You're welcome. You know I get you. Also, you need to reply to my email.



Well, on that I agree because by the time Rick Berman took over creative control of the Star Trek TV franchise, and DS9 went into production, Star Trek had seven years of practice with The Next Generation to get the character development and the relationship storylines right, and they just took that right into DS9. I think B5's best episodes dealt the the mythology of the Shadows and the main story arc, but it wasn't that good with the individual standalone episodes or the character/relationship storylines.

I think 500 of those thousand times probably came from me.

Trollheart

I think for me the whole thing was new Star Trek! I was at a convention (my only one, and I believe the only one to have ever been held in Ireland, could be wrong) and they screened the first episode of DS9, so right away I was looking forward to it. Loved it so much, then Voyager came along and I just went with it, but was not as impressed (see my series looking back at Star Trek Voyager, coming to a thread near you soon!) and as far as Enterprise went, meh, I just could not get into it. I know it's said it got better in season three but I had given up by then. I never really rated Bakula, so there was that obstacle right away, never liked him as an actor and I didn't much like Quantum Leap.

As for Babylon 5, like you PhoenixRising I got the original movie on a VHS cassette, wished there was more, later found out there was and just fell in love with it there and then. It will always be my favourite science fiction show, if for nothing else than that it was up against the big boy of the galaxy, and managed not only to survive but to thrive. I could go into arguments about whose character was fleshed out best or worst, but I don't want to derail this thread again, so I won't. Happy though to talk B5 with you Phoenix in DM if you wish.

sum1

The character portrayal in DS9 was generally much better than that in TNG.

I didn't like the Trip/T'Pol ship in Enterprise, because I couldn't stand T'Pol. I found some value in Enterprise nonetheless, though it was definitely the weakest of the classic Trek shows.

Londo Mollari and G'Kar were the main characters that stood out in B5. The rest were somewhat underdone.

Trollheart

I'd definitely agree. The only characters we really learned anything about in TNG were Riker (a bit), Deanna (another bit) and kind of really Worf. There wasn't room given to any sort of character development, and everyone just sort of got dropped in as they were. DS9 was much better, introducing us to characters and - and this is important - introducing characters to characters, i.e., hardly anyone really knew anyone. Room for both backstories and relationships to develop, and conflict too. Even the Ferengi, a line drawing in TNG were fleshed out into a whole, vibrant, thriving, scheming race through the seven seasons . As for Voyager? Other than the odd attempt to somehow link Chakotay with his Native American heritage - most of which could be seen for what they were: the writers thinking "oh ****, we made him a Native American didn't we? Better sketch in some stories about his people then!" - the only characters who grew in any meaningful way were the Doctor and Seven of Nine. I repeat my amazement that Kim remained an ensign to the end. I mean, it was a relatively small ship and an even smaller bridge crew: could she not have promoted him even once? I've said all I'm going to say, and all I need to say, on Enterprise.

Also agree Londo and G'Kar (I will never ever write Londo without ending up writing London first) were the most fleshed-out of the characters in Babylon 5. Almost the original straight man comedy team. I think in some ways maybe JMS was so intent on creating a sweeping galaxy-spanning saga that he kind of forgot about the little people - case of not being able to see the stars for the nebula, or something.

Where Babylon 5 excelled, in my view, was fleshing out races. Yes, DS9 did a great job with the Changelings and the Jem'ha'dar, but most other races were just there. From the Drazi to the Narn and the Pak'ma'ra to the Vorlons, B5 showed us each race had its own culture, religion, beliefs and idiosyncrasies (who can forget the Drazi way of choosing a leader, or the fact that the Drakh could take you over like a parasite?) and this I think made it one of the most in-depth shows on television. Of course, DS9 had a lot of ready-made races to rely upon that nobody needed explanation for, so there is that. But to create not only a world but a galaxy from scratch: that takes talent.

crazy_diamond

source

sum1

I think the characters that stood out in TNG were Picard and Data. They came through the strongest, which is probably why they're the most popular. But DS9 had lots of standout characters and Worf was much better there than on TNG. I particularly enjoyed his romance with Jadzia, who I loved. She's so positive and confident!

The name "Londo" reminds me of "Lando" and his surname "Mollari" reminds me of the Hungarian name Molinari.

Chris

aw, it's cute that Julian is organizing a baby shower for Pran

Agree about Worf. He really grew on me in DS9. Maybe part of it was seeing him interact with Klingons more and being able to embrace his heritage. Also his romance with Jadzia was fun to watch. Especially since she pursued him.

wickedrum

There are Molinaris in Hungary but I would not call it a Hungarian name. Molnar means Baker, it’s just too far in terms of spelling I’d say. Though I’m no linguist so

sum1

Thanks for the info.

crazy_diamond

source

Trollheart

“The answer seems simple enough to me: split it down the middle. Send the symbiont back to stand trial and keep the host here.” - Judge Renora
“I’m afraid it’s a bit more complicated than that.” - Doctor Bashir
“Oh, what a surprise!” - Judge Renora

Episode title: “Dax”
Season: 1
Basic plot: Dax has to stand trial for crimes committed before Jadzia was the host
Trollheart of the past: Think this is the first episode to tackle Dax’s past hosts?
Importance: 6 (in terms of how melded to their host trills are, and how they will literally go down with the host)
Crisis point(s) if any: Dax is kidnapped
Original transmission date: February 15 1993
Writer(s): Peter Allan Fields (teleplay by him and D.C. Fontana)
Director: David Carson
Stardate:* 46910.5
Main character(s) in Plot: Dax, Sisko, Odo
Main character(s) in Subplot (if any):
Not appearing: O’Brien
Villain/Monster (if any): None
Themes: Revenge, justice, retribution, treachery
Deaths: 1
Lives saved (episode): 1
Lives saved (cumulative): 3
Locations:

Station:
Promenade
Docking Bay
Sisko’s office
Odo’s office
Dax’s quarters
Quark’s

Space:
Docking ring

Other:
Klystron IV

Space battles: 0
Bodycount

Historical
1
Incidental
0
Direct
0
Total: 1
Running total: 6

Combat factor: 0
Planets mentioned: Klystron IV
Aliens: 1
Mysteries: Why won’t Dax save herself by denying the charges? What really happened on Klystron IV all those years ago?
Patients in sickbay: 0
Odo v humanity: Odo is the one who goes to Klystron IV and brings the widow back, just in time to save Dax. Technically speaking, this isn't due to his powers as a shapeshifter, but even so, he is the only one with the knowledge as to where she is.
Odo 3 - Humanity 1
Character scores:
Sisko 15
Kira 10
Odo 155
Quark 10
O’Brien 0
Dax 245
Bashir 15
Jake 0
Nog 0
Rom 0

Shuttlecraft: 1
Admirals: 0
Other Starfleet Officers: 0
First contact: 0
Shades of Grey: 3
Religion: 0
Humour: 0
The Ferengi Factor: 1
Episode rating: 8/10
Episode score: 205
Trollheart of the present: Yes, another powerful and well-written episode. I remember being of the opinion that season one was pretty light, and considering the later Dominion War arc, it is, but even so, it kicks the **** out of TNG and Voyager in its first season. Some of these episodes are amazing. This is one of them.


"I don't trust any of you - I'm keeping my my Easter egg right here beside me!"

Continuing our understanding of what it means to be a trill, this story concerns crimes one of the other hosts appears to have committed, but as Jadzia is carrying the host she is now the target of the force sent to apprehend the trill. You would have to think, though, if this extradition is, as they say it is, all above board and legal, why did the Klystronians feel the need to grab her covertly? Why not just present their warrant to Sisko and demand he turn her over? If the warrant is in order, he couldn’t refuse to comply. So why the almost abduction? The state of Denmark is beginning to smell badly. Oh I see; they did address this. So the Klystronians were afraid that, as the station is technically Bajoran territory, and they have no extradition treaty with them, it might present a problem. And it does. The Bajorans aren’t any fans of these people, who are allies of the Cardassians. The friend of my enemy, and all that.

There’s a touch of TNG’s “The Measure of a Man” and indeed “The Drumhead” about this, but mostly the first, as the idea is to define the defendant: are they the same person as is mentioned in the warrant? Come to think of it, isn’t the denouement somewhat similar to “Sins of the Father”, where the nurse comes in and gives her evidence? Granted, that didn’t really change the verdict - that had been set before Worf ever arrived on Qu’O’Nos - but the shock witness kind of thing is very reminiscent of that episode.


There's a power shift after this episode, in terms of ranking. Though Kira remains on top, for the first time Sisko is displaced, as Odo slides in to take the number 2 slot, bumping the commander down to third. Jadzia, unsurprisingly, does well out of this episode, rising three places to number four, while others fall, such as julian from 4 to 5, Miles from 5 to 6 and Quark from 6 to 7. Everyone else remains as is.


1. Kira
2. Odo
3. Sisko
4. Dax
5. Bashir
6. O'Brien (Miles)
7. Quark
8. O'Brien (Keiko)
9. Jake Sisko
10. Nog and Rom

crazy_diamond

source

Chris

That was a good Kira episode.

Trollheart - the Dax episode really showed us how deeply the relationship with previous hosts was. Even though Jadzia knew the truth, she also knew that the previous host wouldn't have revealed it, so she wouldn't either.

Trollheart

I think the idea of the trill was one of the masterstrokes Trek pulled, that nobody else could even conceive of. Right away, it opened up all sorts of ethical questions, as here, and later on when one of her ex-hosts turns out to have been a murderer (or did I dream that?) as well as the hilarity accompanying Sisko's calling Jadzia "old man". It also asks a fundamental question: are we who we are on the surface, or what lies beneath, as it were? And in a way, too, I think it must touch on schizophrenia, multiple personalities etc, as at some point - though I know the balance is sorted out by the trill - it must get a little overwhelming having all those minds, all those lives inside of you. And then there's the other dilemma: if say Jadzia got sick and needed an operation that would save her life but doom the trill, does she forsake the trill to get the operation, so as to save it, or die and allow it to be transplanted into another host? So many dilemmas, and while TNG opened up this can of philosophical worms, it was really DS9 that took it and ran with it.

I don't know if it extends to Picard or Discovery, but there were no trills in Voyager - I guess, since their home planet was 70,000 light years that way, can't miss it, that was understandable - and I think they could have been a major plot device in a lot of stories. The idea of keeping the trill name as the "new" surname is good too. I wonder, if a Bajoran was a host, would the trill name go to the front? Like, if it was Kira, would she become Dax Nerys?

Such a different idea. The Borg were great, but in essence you could say they weren't exactly unique, a new creation, nod to William Gibson etc, and Species 8472 (was there ever a more lazy name for an adversary) were, well, just aliens. The trill were a species completely apart, and while there have been instances of symbiosis in nature, usually we're talking about parasites who feed on the host body, and not only that, when the host dies they die too. So overall, kudos to whoever came up with the idea.