chaos blues

oh new thread already you are moving fast.

and i agree that scene from 5x05 was so sad. i think i need to watch 5x08 soon. i need to finish the season because i heard everything will be good in the end. hmm..

soulmatejunkee

Who told you that?!
You definitely should watch it, because there are some of the most amazings scenes/moments coming up!! But the fandom is still unsure if we got a happy end or not

Honestly, I like this M/B Scene in 5.07, because IMO it was about time that someone just said it and that Michael would be the one wasn't the worst thing. It's how it is: The truth hurts...

i never learn

the truth hurts, yes, and as much as brian readily gives it, michael didn't have to ask, who wouldn't? i mean, if we're suppose to believe michael knows brian better than anyone else, wouldn't he also accept what he knows versus throwing something as deeply hurtful as that in his face, especially right after justin left him? also though, michael stayed by brian's side throughout the course of the series, even instantly forgiving him after he outed him to tracy, so i found that remark not only insulting, but deeply hypocritical as well, since yea, michael was the one person who wouldn't... or until brian helped linds out with jr. i'm not saying michael wasn't entitled to his opinion, but the way he went about it was wrong. on the other hand, i can't really blame michael for finally laying it all on the line either. brian just pushes and pushes, so it was inevitable someone would push back.

Gemstone

I don't think the speech would have had the impact without the "who wouldn't". I think it brought everything home. At that stage Brian needed the truth, no sugar coating the words.

For me it is also significant that it is Michael who delivered the words. Brian and Michael were always straightforward with each other, telling each other the truth. Why change now? "Who wouldn't" sound harsh, but I think that was exactly what Brian needed to hear.

i never learn

no one needs to hear that, no matter how much of a punch it packs. in fact, it didn't change anything thereafter either... the bombing did. i sort of love that. the only thing michael's speech did was distance him from brian even more. honestly. and to make a person (who already knows what it's like to be unloved in every sense of the word since birth) question their worthiness after seemingly ridding themselves of such ugliness is horrible.

soulmatejunkee

Hmmm... I have a little mixed feelings about that.

I agree it's harsh and no one wants or need to hear that.
But lets not forget what that talk was about. I was Brian blaming Michael for Justin's leaving. So you can say, Brian wanted to have a relationship (with J). So lets say this was about having a relationship.

And so the "Who wouldn't" wasn't that wrong, because with deep feelings you normally don't accept the rule B/J had lived with for years IMO. Brian might be able to make a difference between love and sex ... within their relationship. And Justin might've tried to do that too... but as we said before and as it's said with Michael's words "He was never perfectly happy" - it's not what you normally want from a partner you love.

Duh, this is really hard to explain, I hope you know what I mean.

i never learn

i get what you're saying, yes, lol. no worries. i guess i should clarify, i completely agree with everything michael said, except those two words. although, i'm prone to believe no one can really judge a relationship unless they are one of two people in it, but everything michael said was true, thus i'm not saying he doesn't have a leg to stand on, yet there is a difference between being blunt with someone versus seeking to injure them just because you can. granted, the truth in itself is ambiguous because everything one deems true may not be the case for another, which in regards to brian, i really do believe on some level he thought justin was satisfied within their relationship, specifically the relationship he wanted, so of course when he hears michael reflecting justin's unhappiness, it's going to come across as something brian is taken aback by. then again, michael knows what it's like to wait for brian. he knows the extent anyone who loves brian has to go to to infinitely wait for something, anything to let them know brian knows them. the irony of it all is that they all know brian... what he wants, what he doesn't, what he'll give, what he won't, etc, but brian is so blinded by his own wants and needs, he casts a shadow on others and fails to know them like others know him. my problem solely rests on the fact that brian has never once made michael feel unworthy of love. he'll open his trap and endlessly argue why he disapproves, yet he's never once sought to make another doubt that they are incapable of having a lasting relationship, even if that's what he believes. backtracking for a moment, brian was wrong in approaching/blaming michael the way he did, totally, but watching him completely implode that episode was so heartbreaking to me. i can't help but sympathize with him a bit.

soulmatejunkee

Do you think Michael just wanted to hurt Brian with "who wouldn't"?

You know, I felt sorry for Brian, too, even though I agree with Michael. I also never was a fan of "who wouldn't" but ... just like Gemstone I somehow think it has to be a part of that fight/speech.

100 % agree

About the unworthy thing, yes, I always like that, especially in S1 that Brian sort of kept Michael short, but never told him that he couldn't find someone else, someone to love, you know what I mean?

But I never saw "Who wouldn't" as a "You're unworthy of love".

i never learn

i really do think michael wanted to hurt brian with who wouldn't, yes. everything michael said, brian needed to hear... although not whilst drunk and certainly not right after justin left him. i mean, look at how michael automatically went to make coffee to sober brian up. he tried to take care of him, yet brian just kept on pushing, so i can understand why the conversation unraveled the way it did, but to imply no one would ever stay by brian's side equated a sense of unworthiness of love to me, especially in relation to brian saying that what justin wanted isn't who he is. or maybe it's not so much as being unworthy of love, but more incapable of being loved. either way, i really do feel like michael was at a crossroads with brian and their issues were so much bigger than justin, which i think justin was more than aware of. that's probably why he never said anything either. idk, sometimes i like the bm friendship, other times i don't. if anything, michael's reaction to the bj wedding invitation was worth it all.

Manu9

Nice discussion, you wrote a lot and it took me a while to catch up

I tend to agree with Lexi. I understand why Michael lost his temper like that and as it often happens during fights, especially with the people you love the most and know the most, sometimes you end up going over the limits and hurting each other, because you know where your friend's weak spots are. Even though Brian was attacking Michael and I understand that Michael knew and felt what Justin was feeling and what made Justin leave, I think the "who wouldn't" was pushing things too much. It was very hurtful, in my opinion it was more hurtful than anything Brian said, even though Brian's words weren't nice either. But to tell someone who feels unworthy of love in the first place, that everybody would leave him, is too much. I didn't expect that from Michael and I think the fact it came from him hurt Brian even more. Again, I repeat that I do see how Michael came to say it, we can happen to exaggerate in moments like that, but my heart bled for Brian when Michael said those words.

I also agree with you guys about the fact that in spite of being so brutally honest and often telling people things that could hurt them, Brian never made anyone feeling unworthy of love, especially Michael. Even though Brian wasn't in love with Michael and wasn't particularly attracted to him sexually either, even though he was sexier and more beautiful and more successful and clever and educated, Brian never made Michael feel lesser than him and always told him he was worthy of the best in life. To see Michael throw those words at him instead, was really sad.

soulmatejunkee

But wasn't it the truth?!
Who exactly did Brian still had around at that time? He somehow managed to push simply everyone away - as he said too "I lost the two people that mean the most to me".

So with pushing and pushing and making fun about what people build (Michael - a home, a family, etc.) and ignoring what people need (Justin - a commitment, safety, etc.), just because he can't relate to it or doesn't believe in it ... he'll end up alone. A behaviour like that will make people leave him.

And that's why I'm not sure if it was really just said to hurt Brian or to wake him up, to make him think about it (which unfortunately didn't work well).

Everything that happened after that (5.09 and also 5.10) I think Michael totally overreacted and hurt Brian on purpose (especially 5.09), but with 5.07 I'm not so sure. I think he really just saw it coming that Justin would leave sooner or later because of Brian's behaviour - and so would he (Michael) too.


Really?!
The second Michael had a relationship Brian interfered.
The second Michael wanted to get marry, Brian tried to talk him out.
The second Michael bought a house, Brian made fun about it.

I don't think that Brian didn't want Michael (or anyone else) to be happy, I'm sure he does, but he totally would prefer it if Michael (and also Justin) would see the world just as he does and would like to have exactly what he wants. And he doesn't really accept marriage, families, homes etc. He always humiliates it - and so also the people who want it ... which is Michael and Justin (and Lindsay, and Melanie... and tons of others).

So ... people might know Brian, but he tend to ignore their needs or feelings or wantings (is that a word). And you can't show consideration for someone all the time, when you barely get anything back, but instead getting humiliated.

galesgirl645

Brian did makes his beliefs about marriage and other issues voiced but he was there when Mel and Lindsay got married, when Michael and Ben got married, he even told that Pool guy to donate money to the gay marriage initiative.

soulmatejunkee

That doesn't change the humiliation.

Manu9

I think that's debatable. We don't know for sure, nobody does. Nobody can say Brian couldn't find someone else who would take him as he was. Hell, I think S1/S2 Michael would have taken and kept that Brian, who was worst than S5 Brian. But that's not the point in my opinion. There are moments to say certain things and moments when you shouldn't. As Debbie once said, "I don't kick people when they're already down" or something like that. I know Brian went there basically calling for the fight, but Michael's words were an unnecessary cruelty in that particular moment, that particular night. I respect your different point of view, but I can't help but feel that Michael went too far.


But those things have nothing to do with making Michael feel like he can't be loved. He criticed his choices because he didn't agree with them and I didn't like many of the things he said and the way he did. But none of the above equals to telling Michael that he is unworthy of love.

Gemstone

For me, the "who wouldn't" isn't only about Justin, it's about all the people in Brian's life. I think "who wouldn't" included Michael and Ted and Justin and Lindsay, I think even Gus, even possible future boyfriends. Brian pushed everyone away. After around 506 Brian was a sad person in my eyes up until the bombing. It says you are such a difficult person that nobody wants to be with you anymore, and it's all you're own doing.

I don't think Michael ever meant the words to be mean, but Michael knew he had to make a stand, especially for himself, and said, no more, I will not be treated this way and no one else wants to be treated like that.